Nvidia abandons deal to buy ARM *spawn*

[Lurkmass]

No They can't. ARM is not open source, you can't fork it.
And Apple perpetual licence is only for Arm v8 ISA but v9 is around the corner...

Technically, you can fork the development of an architecture. AMD and Intel microcode are not bit for bit equivalent with each other since there are still edge cases where each of their implementation can produce a different behaviour depending on the situation ...

Apple has a hidden AMX instruction set on their in-house processors that are NOT standardized elsewhere on other ARM CPU implementations that they mostly keep under wraps behind a compiler. I don't think you can grasp the ramifications behind competing standards or fragmentation if you think Nvidia can somehow monopolize ARM market by forcing other vendors to negotiate on unfavourable conditions ...

I don't think the other megacorps who are also members of 3GPP will take too kindly to being bullied by another megacorp that couldn't even figure LTE technology. They'd rather a scorched-earth policy where no new ARM extensions get standardized such as ARMv9 or SVE/SVE2 and do their own custom ARM extensions rather than outright hand a victory to Nvidia ...

 

[MfA]

Can someone explain why Apple would want any new Arm IP, v9 or anything else?

If they can't compete with NVIDIA's graphic processing.

AFAIK, Apple only has an architecture license and not a flexible access license ... if they wanted to go full custom ISA they'd need the latter regardless.

 

[Jawed]

If they can't compete with NVIDIA's graphic processing.

Seems like a big if to me. 10 years ago that might have been relevant, but not now. The patents that mattered back then are dead.

AFAIK, Apple only has an architecture license and not a flexible access license ... if they wanted to go full custom ISA they'd need the latter regardless.

Apple is building completely custom silicon. Why would the Arm label for an ISA be relevant? A MUL is a MUL, etc.

 

[MfA]

Why would the Arm label for an ISA be relevant?

Because the contract makes it relevant.

 

[Jawed]

Because the contract makes it relevant.

Here's a test: if the contract was relevant, NVidia would not be buying Arm

 

[Ethatron]

I guess if Nvidia buys ARM, then all licensees will get a perpetual license to protect themselfs from being shut off ... is that a way to make quick bucks, wrestle everyone into apocalypse mode? (not entirely serious conjecture, just playing evil advocate )

 

[MfA]

Why would most licensees care if they got a Mali or a Geforce GPU with newer generation cores? Most don't compete with NVIDIA.

 

[JasonLD]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/softba...o-nvidia-for-more-than-40-billion-11599928360

SoftBank Nears $40 Billion Deal to Sell Arm Holdings to Nvidia


I guess it is happening again.

 

[DegustatoR]

Wasn't this supposed to have happened already according to the same sources?

It's looking more and more like someone trying to capitalize on some stocks by stirring up these rumors IMO.

 

[Deleted member 2197]

A little more detail on the SoftBank Arm Holdings deal
September 12, 2020

Graphics processing unit (GPU) designer NVIDIA Corporation (NASDAQ:NVDA 486.58 -1.20%) is in the final stages of its acquisition of British chip house Arm technologies reports the Wall Street Journal. The deal is now valued at $40 billion, a drop from earlier reports that claimed that Softbank's C.E.O Masayoshi Son was demanding roughly $52 billion for the chip designer.
...
By acquiring Arm, NVIDIA will be able to drastically expand the scope of its current operations. While currently the company designs and sells GPUs for personal computers, enterprise application and automotive customers, by bringing the chip design house under its wing, NVIDIA will be able to target the vast smartphone and Internet of Thing (IoT) market – in addition to gaining access to Arm's critical competencies of designing central processing units (CPUs) for servers.

Through combining these CPUs with its GPUs, NVIDIA will be able to provide its customers with a one-stop holistic solution that will enable the company to push its highly performant GPUs to potential new customers and increase market penetration as a result of this.
...
More importantly, however, should NVIDIA secure a controlling interest in Arm, then the U.S. government will have more teeth in its bite against stemming the flow of American-origin semiconductor products and designs to Chinese companies such as Huawei. While the current scenario limits this to only those Arm designs that use American software, an acquisition will allow the government to increase the scope of its export control orders.

https://wccftech.com/nvidia-arm-acquisition-40-billion/

 

[swaaye]

It's reminiscent of the money flushage of AMD buying ATI.

 

[MfA]

I think NVIDIA agrees with me about Apple and they are not doing this so much to hurt Apple, but to keep non Apple markets alive to profit from.

 

[JasonLD]

It's reminiscent of the money flushage of AMD buying ATI.

Well, Nvidia's market cap is about 7 times higher than potential price tag on ARM while ATI's price was about 1/2~1/3 of AMD's market cap. So Nvidia isn't really forcing it as much as AMD at the time.

If Nvidia is really going to acquire ARM though, now is the perfect time to do so, when their stock is riding high.

 

[Shortbread]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-close-to-buying-arm-for-dollar40-billion-report

As part of the deal, Nvidia would likely be subject to regulatory approvals that would compel the company to continue to licence the ARM architecture to existing customers, but it would still gain access to a treasure trove of IP and engineering talent. That could enable the company to quickly develop custom CPU architectures for its own use, which would then further the company's broadening push into the profit-rich data center market.

In comparison, Nvidia's singular focus on GPU compute limits its ability to compete with complex designs that fully leverage the advantages of memory coherency between accelerators (like GPUs) and the CPU. Naturally, custom ARM-based Nvidia CPUs would address that need perfectly, and the company has already paved the way for tighter ARM integration with its recent introduction of CUDA support for ARM architectures.

Nvidia could also use custom ARM architectures to address its other target markets, like IoT, autonomous driving, and robotics. ARM architectures currently power billions of mobile devices, and it's also conceivable that ARM's licensing model would help Nvidia leverage its graphics portfolio more broadly in that explosive market.

Nvidia and SoftBank have kept the details of the negotiations, and even the existence of them, close to the chest. Given the increasing signs of a pending deal, we expect we'll learn more official details soon, with several outlets pointing to an official announcement early next week.

 

[Malo]

Don't we have a dedicated thread?

 

[Shortbread]

Don't we have a dedicated thread?

Didn't see it within the PC Industry section search. I forgot about the Graphics and Semiconductor section.

 

[msxyz]

Two naive questions:
-What would happen to those actors that have heavily invested into ARM architecture (i.e. Apple and Samsung which both developed in house architectures with ARM compatible instruction sets)?
-If somebody at Apple or Samsung doesn't like the new licensing terms offered by NVidia, what would prevent said actors to simply continuing to develop their architectures but with a slightly different instruction set in order to sidestep ARM licensing? (I believe there has been a precedent with Motorola which sued MOS technology for the 6500 which shared a lot of the 6800 architecture with a slightly different instruction set).

 

[Shortbread]

Two naive questions:
-What would happen to those actors that have heavily invested into ARM architecture (i.e. Apple and Samsung which both developed in house architectures with ARM compatible instruction sets)?

Nothing wouldn't/shouldn't change with the current IP licensing agreements that are in place. Once those agreements have ran their course, then negotiations and/or re-negotiations will come into play.

-If somebody at Apple or Samsung doesn't like the new licensing terms offered by NVidia, what would prevent said actors to simply continuing to develop their architectures but with a slightly different instruction set in order to sidestep ARM licensing? (I believe there has been a precedent with Motorola which sued MOS technology for the 6500 which shared a lot of the 6800 architecture with a slightly different instruction set).

Circumventing or altering a current and protected IP would just end in court. Costing the guilty party millions/billions in damages.

 

[msxyz]

I asked because it's my understanding that Apple and Samsung don't license the whole synthesizable core from ARM (as other minor players do) but they develop in house processors that happens to be binary compatible with ARM instruction set. If they changed the front end of the instruction decoder to use an other similar RISC instruction set, on what footing ARM could sue them? They're basically paying royalties for being binary compatible with an instruction set that happens to be very widespread (even if ARM in itself always struck me as a poor man RISC ISA).

With programming becoming more and more high level, however, the importance of sticking to one instruction set or another is becoming less and less relevant in the long run. Heck, if Apple can migrate Mac users from PowerPC to X86 and then to ARM in little more than a decade, what would prevent it to design its own instruction set, or to switch to an already established one, with no royalties?

 

[Ike Turner]

Nvidia Buys SoftBank’s Arm for $40 Billion in Biggest Chip Deal - Bloomberg

Regulatory approval is going to be a bitch.
The EU (edit: & China!) is going to take its sweet time as usual...
Its been nearly a year since Google announced its intend to acquire Fitbit for example and things are still stalling..

The proposed transaction is subject to customary closing conditions, including the receipt of regulatory approvals for the U.K., China, the European Union and the United States. Completion of the transaction is expected to take place in approximately 18 months.

In other news...Microsoft just dodged a fucking bulle..missile..:
Microsoft statement on TikTok - The Official Microsoft Blog