Nv30 Confirmed RElease at Comdex?
- Thread starter sancheuz
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I'd say a consumer R350 would be absolutely nuts.
This does leave the possibility open for workstation cards, however. And, if they can deliver workstation drivers good enough, likely a king of the hill workstation card too.
The RV350 does puzzle me a bit...but their "V" designations seem to be mobile parts at some point, so it does make sense at SOME point, perhaps with this "mobile workstation" market they seem to be targetting.
All this makes sense if the NV30 and R350/RV350 are "paper launch combatants" with actual products following next year (atleast for the ATi parts...they don't have to ship as soon as the NV30, whenever that is, just be "near" and hang over its launch like a cloud).
This does leave the possibility open for workstation cards, however. And, if they can deliver workstation drivers good enough, likely a king of the hill workstation card too.
The RV350 does puzzle me a bit...but their "V" designations seem to be mobile parts at some point, so it does make sense at SOME point, perhaps with this "mobile workstation" market they seem to be targetting.
All this makes sense if the NV30 and R350/RV350 are "paper launch combatants" with actual products following next year (atleast for the ATi parts...they don't have to ship as soon as the NV30, whenever that is, just be "near" and hang over its launch like a cloud).
jb said:
Was this in reply to me? I'm under the same impression, it is just that my mention of it in the context of a mobile part is in regards to what makes sense to me to release in the somewhat near future. I forget if the article specified that the RV350 would be .15 micron too, but to me it would have to be .13 micron to make real sense, and this lends itself to what would be required for a mobile DX 9 part. The R300 doesn't seem mobile capable IMO.
So, R350 as a high end workstation card, at any time they want if they have control over their pricing, though the later they can do this seems more advantageous to them. Then RV350 at some future date, likely next year..there is likely no big rush depending on what the NV31 delivers and when..primarily focused as a mobile part (since the R300 would be pushed down lower in price in the consumer space by then). This way, the parts make sense in the near future. As consumer desktop cards they make no sense to me.
But ATi is doing fine without my counsel, so I'm curious as to what they actually have planned.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Well, one thing I'm not really clear on:
What is the name of the "chip" that will power the Radeon 9500 boards? With all this talk of cheaper / value R-300 based products "after" the 9500, I have yet to even hear of the chip name for the soon to be released R 9500 part.
Now, the 9500 board is not a "value" part in the traditional $100 sense of the definition of "value", but it is purportedly a "cheaper" R-300. Is the 9500 based on the RV-350?
Of course, there is speculation that the 9500 is the "same" chip as the R-300, just with some pipelines disabled, and in 128 bit packaging. Would that classify the chip as still a "R-300" though internally at ATI? Officially, the chip name powering the 9700 is the "Radeon 9700 VPU". So officially, I assume the 9500 will be powered by the "9500 VPU."
Starting to get confusing over at ATI keeping all the potential chip names straight.
What is the name of the "chip" that will power the Radeon 9500 boards? With all this talk of cheaper / value R-300 based products "after" the 9500, I have yet to even hear of the chip name for the soon to be released R 9500 part.
Now, the 9500 board is not a "value" part in the traditional $100 sense of the definition of "value", but it is purportedly a "cheaper" R-300. Is the 9500 based on the RV-350?
Of course, there is speculation that the 9500 is the "same" chip as the R-300, just with some pipelines disabled, and in 128 bit packaging. Would that classify the chip as still a "R-300" though internally at ATI? Officially, the chip name powering the 9700 is the "Radeon 9700 VPU". So officially, I assume the 9500 will be powered by the "9500 VPU."
Starting to get confusing over at ATI keeping all the potential chip names straight.
martrox said:
I think that is a matter of perspective..... usually depending on who is discussing the matter. Personally ATI needs to make the NV30 look as lackluster as possible. Further ATIs parteners whom are trying to sell ATi products would prefer that ATi bests nvidia here for the sake of brand recognition. So it is a matter of perspective IMO. Its great from a consumers perspective all around!! Particularly if the NV30 is bested, that is what I would like to see. Although there is some speculation that the NV30 may only end up on par with the Radoen 9700 pro. At this point it is all speculation at any rate. hehe I would love to see ATI pull an nvidia and beat nvidias next latest greatest offering.
If ATI has a shot at retaining the performance crown after the release of the NV30 by releasing another card, they'd be silly not to. They need to win the mindshare battle with developers and consumers.
Some R300s can be overclocked to 400 MHz (and beyond). If they could release a higher-clocked R300 with DDR II memory, they may well be able to match or exceed the NV30 in many benchmarks. They might prevent existing 9700 owners from being angered by pricing the card at $499. They wouldn't be aiming to sell a lot of these cards, just to prevent nVidia from having the undisputed performance crown.
Some R300s can be overclocked to 400 MHz (and beyond). If they could release a higher-clocked R300 with DDR II memory, they may well be able to match or exceed the NV30 in many benchmarks. They might prevent existing 9700 owners from being angered by pricing the card at $499. They wouldn't be aiming to sell a lot of these cards, just to prevent nVidia from having the undisputed performance crown.
Ok, whats the big deal with the R350....Bottom line is the 9700 Pros are already available for $315.00 on pricewatch. So, IF the R350 comes in at $399.00, you will have a choice to pay less for a 9700....However, IF you had to have the bleeding edge card and paid $399.00 for a 9700...... Did you honestly expect it NOT to drop in price, and be superceeded? Again, this is what nVidia used to put 3DFX out of business (not that 3DFX didn't do a bunch to help them...), so whats the big deal? I would like to see if there are any complaints when, 6 months after NV30, NV35 comes out......
The really interesting thing here is not only in ATI beating nVidia at it's own (and very sucessfull) game, it's EVEN playing the Paper launch game! Now, why buy a NV30 when it's available when the R350 is just around the corner......
The really interesting thing here is not only in ATI beating nVidia at it's own (and very sucessfull) game, it's EVEN playing the Paper launch game! Now, why buy a NV30 when it's available when the R350 is just around the corner......
As regards the codenames, I'd expect that the chip in the 9500 (Pro) will be the RV350. After all, the RV250 is an cheaper adaptation of the technology in the R200 with some improvements. It makes sense that a lower-performance and cost chip based on the R300 would be the RV350.
The question then would be if a more advanced refresh of the R300 would be called the R350!
The question then would be if a more advanced refresh of the R300 would be called the R350!
martrox said:
I've heard lots of people voicing their dislike for NVIDIA's 6 month cycle, even on this forum.
Shorter product cycles are a win-win situation for the consumer no matter what company is selling the product. Prices drop faster and there is always something better coming out (be it faster, more features, just cheaper, etc...) for people who haven't upgraded in a longer time to set their eys on.
Consumers who bitch about short product cycles are simply mad because theirs isn't the best anymore...
350 denotes a new design. So, the 9500 with the features we've been told in no way fits the RV350 monicker (atleast on .15) . Remember, the RV250 is a different design in significant ways from the R200.
This isn't to say that it won't be limited to the R300 featureset (i.e., a power consumption saving and feature limited in relation to the R350 chip design), just that it will be a different design to achieve it.
The 9500 can be called a R300 (and the rumors for the pro version seem to indicate it is a R300) pretty much, or a RV300 if they really want. The name in that case doesn't matter, it would just signify whether they consider the "crippled" R300 core used as deserving a different name. I'm pretty sure they would, as I think the "crippled" early Radeons were named the same way, then replaced with actual "crippled by design" chips later.
So, again, my opinions:
R350 - workstation card, could be introduced as soon as they finish it, because there is plenty of ceiling in workstation card prices to leave the R300 breathing room. This would also let them keep the performance crown, really (if the R350 can manage this against the NV30). Would fit the digitimes article in a way that makes sense to me.
RV350 - dx 9 part designed for "value". With the R300, I don't see a place for it in the desktop (The RV250 came out a year after the R200), so I foresee it only in the mobile market initially (if it is a .13 part). Depending on the featureset, it might replace one or more "R300" designs at a later date on the desktop if it cheaper for ATi to do so by then, but there doesn't seem to be any requirement that it has to fit this design niche.
Of course, ATi could exceed my (our?) expectations again and manage a mobile part on .15, but how many rabbits can they have in that hat?
R300 - with the yields they seem to be getting, I don't see them introducing anything else into the consumer desktop space, since they seem to have all the niches covered from 9500 to 9700 Pro.
RV300 - maybe the "crippled" 9500 chip is called this, maybe not. I think it likely that it is, but I don't think it really matters much.
This isn't to say that it won't be limited to the R300 featureset (i.e., a power consumption saving and feature limited in relation to the R350 chip design), just that it will be a different design to achieve it.
The 9500 can be called a R300 (and the rumors for the pro version seem to indicate it is a R300) pretty much, or a RV300 if they really want. The name in that case doesn't matter, it would just signify whether they consider the "crippled" R300 core used as deserving a different name. I'm pretty sure they would, as I think the "crippled" early Radeons were named the same way, then replaced with actual "crippled by design" chips later.
So, again, my opinions:
R350 - workstation card, could be introduced as soon as they finish it, because there is plenty of ceiling in workstation card prices to leave the R300 breathing room. This would also let them keep the performance crown, really (if the R350 can manage this against the NV30). Would fit the digitimes article in a way that makes sense to me.
RV350 - dx 9 part designed for "value". With the R300, I don't see a place for it in the desktop (The RV250 came out a year after the R200), so I foresee it only in the mobile market initially (if it is a .13 part). Depending on the featureset, it might replace one or more "R300" designs at a later date on the desktop if it cheaper for ATi to do so by then, but there doesn't seem to be any requirement that it has to fit this design niche.
Of course, ATi could exceed my (our?) expectations again and manage a mobile part on .15, but how many rabbits can they have in that hat?
R300 - with the yields they seem to be getting, I don't see them introducing anything else into the consumer desktop space, since they seem to have all the niches covered from 9500 to 9700 Pro.
RV300 - maybe the "crippled" 9500 chip is called this, maybe not. I think it likely that it is, but I don't think it really matters much.
Bigus Dickus
Regular
Taking ATI's past few product releases as a clue, and their current statements about a 9500 product, this is my speculation:
R400 and RV350 released late next year. R400 is anybody's guess, and RV350 is essentially an R300 redesigned for .13u process, with whatever changes they can make to keep costs down (the R100 to RV200 was essentially the same feature wise, but the RV200 was significantly faster... the R200 to RV250 cut pipes in half, kept the features pretty much the same, and performance dropped a bit on average... therefore, whether RV350 is faster or slower than R300 is a toss up: my guess is faster core clock, DDR-II and possibly a 128-bit memory controller for reduced costs = close to R300).
Now, ATI has been releasing the "value/mainstream" versions of a product a year later than the flagship, in tandem with the new flagship release. This seems to be changing just a bit with the 9500 product, but this is explained in part by them using the same cores, and might simply be a by-product of yields. In any case, I think the existence of the 9500 means that we surely won't see the RV350 until late next year.
And that still leaves, of course, the mystery of the R350. IMO, it won't show up until March if at all. It wouldn't make since to release it this close to the R300 launch. Now, I could see an Radeon 9700 Ultra in a couple of months from now, but that would just be a slightly higher clocked part (350/350 or a bit higher maybe). In truth, I don't expect any new product for the holiday season... but I do think we'll see something next Feb/March. We saw a refresh of the 8500 with BGA memory, 128MB of it. What I can't really decide on is if we'll see an R300 @ 350MHz or higher w/ DDR-II memory, or a truly new part... R350 on .13u w/ 16 TMU's and other goodies.
My better judgement is saying that ATi's past product history shows that there won't be a significant spring refresh, just some clock bumps and new memory possibly. But, then there's vague comments from ATi alluding to the existance of an R350 chip.
I suppose that it is entirely possible that R400 won't launch next fall after all, due to the timing of DX9 and DX10 launches. I can't see DX10 launching anytime next year with DX9 still not out. Perhaps, if the R400 is targeted as a DX10 part (and it could just be a super-DX9 part for all we know) then it won't be launched until 2004. IN that case, ATi might move the fall product release up to early summer, and a true .13u 8x2 R350 could be ready for May/June, with some "Ultra" version coming out along-side the NV30 to tide things over.
Was that enough speculation? I think I covered pretty much all possible scenarios, and I've concluded that I believe they are all true.
R400 and RV350 released late next year. R400 is anybody's guess, and RV350 is essentially an R300 redesigned for .13u process, with whatever changes they can make to keep costs down (the R100 to RV200 was essentially the same feature wise, but the RV200 was significantly faster... the R200 to RV250 cut pipes in half, kept the features pretty much the same, and performance dropped a bit on average... therefore, whether RV350 is faster or slower than R300 is a toss up: my guess is faster core clock, DDR-II and possibly a 128-bit memory controller for reduced costs = close to R300).
Now, ATI has been releasing the "value/mainstream" versions of a product a year later than the flagship, in tandem with the new flagship release. This seems to be changing just a bit with the 9500 product, but this is explained in part by them using the same cores, and might simply be a by-product of yields. In any case, I think the existence of the 9500 means that we surely won't see the RV350 until late next year.
And that still leaves, of course, the mystery of the R350. IMO, it won't show up until March if at all. It wouldn't make since to release it this close to the R300 launch. Now, I could see an Radeon 9700 Ultra in a couple of months from now, but that would just be a slightly higher clocked part (350/350 or a bit higher maybe). In truth, I don't expect any new product for the holiday season... but I do think we'll see something next Feb/March. We saw a refresh of the 8500 with BGA memory, 128MB of it. What I can't really decide on is if we'll see an R300 @ 350MHz or higher w/ DDR-II memory, or a truly new part... R350 on .13u w/ 16 TMU's and other goodies.
My better judgement is saying that ATi's past product history shows that there won't be a significant spring refresh, just some clock bumps and new memory possibly. But, then there's vague comments from ATi alluding to the existance of an R350 chip.
I suppose that it is entirely possible that R400 won't launch next fall after all, due to the timing of DX9 and DX10 launches. I can't see DX10 launching anytime next year with DX9 still not out. Perhaps, if the R400 is targeted as a DX10 part (and it could just be a super-DX9 part for all we know) then it won't be launched until 2004. IN that case, ATi might move the fall product release up to early summer, and a true .13u 8x2 R350 could be ready for May/June, with some "Ultra" version coming out along-side the NV30 to tide things over.
Was that enough speculation? I think I covered pretty much all possible scenarios, and I've concluded that I believe they are all true.
The one thing i can say is that the RV350 will have nothing *directly* to do with any of the mobile chips.
the codenames for mobile chips are "M" the mobility 9000 was M9, and the M10 will be coming out early next year I would expect.
The mobile chips obviously share tech from the desktop chips, but don't confuse the codenames.
the codenames for mobile chips are "M" the mobility 9000 was M9, and the M10 will be coming out early next year I would expect.
The mobile chips obviously share tech from the desktop chips, but don't confuse the codenames.
Joe DeFuria said:Well, one thing I'm not really clear on:
What is the name of the "chip" that will power the Radeon 9500 boards? With all this talk of cheaper / value R-300 based products "after" the 9500, I have yet to even hear of the chip name for the soon to be released R 9500 part.
Now, the 9500 board is not a "value" part in the traditional $100 sense of the definition of "value", but it is purportedly a "cheaper" R-300. Is the 9500 based on the RV-350?
Of course, there is speculation that the 9500 is the "same" chip as the R-300, just with some pipelines disabled, and in 128 bit packaging. Would that classify the chip as still a "R-300" though internally at ATI? Officially, the chip name powering the 9700 is the "Radeon 9700 VPU". So officially, I assume the 9500 will be powered by the "9500 VPU."
Starting to get confusing over at ATI keeping all the potential chip names straight.
Actually it sounds to me like the R9500 might be the rumored RV350. That would explain how they kept all eight pipes while changing out the memory controller to 128 bit. R350 will likely be the Radeon 10000. Honestly, it's been rumored since the launch of the R9700 that they were going to soup the chip up and release it with the NV30.
So:
R300 = R9700
RV350 = R9500 & R9500 Pro
R350 = R10000
It's still just rumors but that seems like the most plausible explanation. Of course I could be totally wrong too.
I think this thread is perfect proof that ATI has learned it's lesson very well...... Notice the name of this thread vs. just what is being talked about.... However, I do believe that ATI DOES have a new product in the R350... probably DDrII & added features. I doubt it varies much from the R300, but it will leapfrog the NV30, which is the intent. Just the fact that the 9700 Pro is already available for $315.00(Pricewatch) says that ATI has room for a newer, more expensive card. I expect it will be available around the end of Feb.....6 month cycle........and they are already pointing to a August release of R400. Just playing the game as taught by nVidia......
Ichneumon said:The one thing i can say is that the RV350 will have nothing *directly* to do with any of the mobile chips.
the codenames for mobile chips are "M" the mobility 9000 was M9, and the M10 will be coming out early next year I would expect.
The mobile chips obviously share tech from the desktop chips, but don't confuse the codenames.
What I mean to say is that the RV350 will only be released as an M core initially, of course...if it is released in the way the digitimes article indicates. I don't lend much weight to the "M" monicker as a unique identifier as it strikes me as whatever "R" design they deem is a good fit with some further modifications (the name just means mobility and then what number it is in the sequence). I'd even suppose the desktop RV250s have the power saving framework present, if not enabled.
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