Non sequitor

Natoma said:
At the time of the Iraq invasion of Kuwait in 1990, we were importing roughly 9% of our oil from them. Today it stands at 11%. Considering the proximity to Saudi Arabia, Saddam's actions were certainly a danger to our economic security

I appologize for the OT comment, it might be very simplistic and widely known, but it's just occured to me that without an Iraq sans Saddam, the United States would be forced to retain it's military presence in Saudi Arabia, primarily due to the presence of facilities we coinvested in with the Saudi's in the 1980's such as the Prince Sultan Air Base needed for the No Fly Zone and basing of the F-117. This was a major propaganda tool for groups like Al-Qaeda and other fundimantalists due to the presence of the Holy cities such as Mecca.

We since have begun to pull out of the country and I can't help but feel this is an important development wrt the cultural sensitivities of the people. A strong reason, even overlooking the other benefits of removing Saddam such as his strong support of Terrorist groups and the benefits of a free Iraq to the US's security.
 
Umm, a net change of 1.7% ... remarkable! Do you honestly think that the relative value we are paying for Kuwait oil now, vs say what we would be paying Saudi/Canada/Russia/etc if Kuwait was part of greater Iraq, would in any shape or form cover the total cost of Gulf War 1? Maybe we'll break even in 50 years or somesuch, considering the damage it did to our economy at the time.

Hell we probably could have forged a deal with Saddam for cheap oil if we let them have Kuwait. Not to mention these yearly quantities fluctuate depending on market factors.

Come on, the argument is nonsensical.

Moreover, I see nothing in the quotes you listed above to refute what I said. In fact I agree with most of them. Reconstruction in Iraq won't be as painful over a 20 year period as say rebuilding Afghanistan in a total dollar amount, precisely b/c they have oil assets.

The real argument against the war that Dems should be pushing, is that it WAS too expensive for American taxpayers over the long haul. Not the converse (eg 10 years down the line our economy is going to be basking in the light of Iraqi black gold).

Hell, hardly any oil company other than Haliburton even wanted the deal, considering the risks involved.
 
Fred, the danger was that Saddam had obvious wishes to take over the middle east. This much was known in his war with Iran during the 80s, then the takeover of Kuwait. Eventually he would have attacked Saudi Arabia if he had not been stopped.

Anyway, you're saying that what has been written is nonsensical, but really, have you provided any refutation? I'm asking you to provide information if you have it. I want to read this universally panned information, because as I see it, our geopolitical interests in the middle east stem primarily from the oil that resides there. Personally I thought that much was clear regarding our interest in the region.

Also, they stated this would cost $50 Billion. They also stated that the oil receipts would total anywhere from $50 Billion to $100 Billion. This was not inclusive of Saddam's hidden billions that would be found. So I don't see how you get the idea that this somehow equates to the oil only covering some of the conflict and reconstruction, and taxpayers getting the rest, when they're clearly saying that taxpayers shouldn't have to pay anything since the oil profits would be there, among other assets.
 
ftp://ftp.cbo.gov/49xx/doc4983/01-23-Iraq.pdf

(current up to date estimates and projections of Iraq oil production, debt load, reperations, etc)

http://www.usembassy.at/en/download/pdf/econ_cost.pdf

Pre war estimates of the cost to the US

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html

General facts about Iraq oil industry.

The general point is that America is projected to not be reimbursed for quite some time eg decades. Thats assuming that foreign countries accept to forgo some debt.

In Afghanistan, its rather obvious we probably won't ever be reimbursed, and in the 2nd article, the cost of the 1st gulf war is mentioned (we've not even come close to breaking even).

Moreover, i'm a little puzzled Natoma, by what you are trying to say exactly.

Democrats often typically tout the 'war would be too expensive and hurt the US economy' (which I generally agreed with and the Bush administration did not). However, it is obvious that the 'war for oil' would be nonsensical if that was true (and the projected figures prewar show this), if we're taking a net hit economically far into the future (long past Bushes term is over) then why choose war? Net minus for a political party. You can't have both true simultaneously, thats not logical!

Some Republicans pre war, felt that the untapped potential in the Iraq fields would eventually repay the debt load and cost of war as evidenced by the quotes. They are probably also right, but it was pathologically obvious and accepted by pretty much everyone that it would be many years before this could be true.

So the point remains, if it was a 'war for oil' like some people like to claim, where is the prognosis for not only breaking even, but ultimately making profit over and above doing nothing (and thus not encuring any war fees) and living off say Canada's reserves. At best, such a claim can only potentially be true far off into the distant future.

So i'm sorry, I don't see any nefarious schemes at play here motivated by personal gains. And personally, i'd be ecstatic if I was wrong and we do see some profitability at some point in the not so distant future (say if crude oil prices drop ultimately b/c of this), that would be a net win for not just America, but most of the world economy, especially Iraq!
 
There are several things I'm saying:

1) Oil has always been one of the geopolitical interests in the middle east. Some of the other goals of the Project for a New American Century has been to create a democratic nation state, friendly to the United States, in the middle east, which would in effect do two things.

a. lower our dependence on the OPEC cartel
b. give a model to democratic loving citizens in the middle east and show them that dictatorial and theocratic regimes do not have to be their form of government, creating the oft-spoken Domino Effect.

2) The cost of the first gulf war for the United States was $4 Billion, because we had a true coalition that accepted the financial burden for us.

3) It is clear from the quotes I provided earlier that what Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Ari Fleischer were saying was not in accordance with the official documents you just linked to. They stated that the revenues from the oil alone would be $50 to $100 Billion, and that coupled with Iraq's billions in frozen assets, would make the burden on the american taxpayer nil to non-existant. Iraq could indeed finance its own reconstruction.

There was no mention in their quotes that this would be something that we'd have to be reimbursed for. Rumsfeld said directly: "I don't believe that the United States has the responsibility for reconstruction" and then stated the reasons why, i.e. frozen iraqi assets, oil, and a "variety of other things" as he put it. That is the message the american public was getting. We won't have to pay for it. Iraq will pick up the tab immediately.

The second gulf war was not primarily about control over oil. That was one of the factors as I labeled in #1 regarding PNAC's principles and goals for america's interests in the middle east. Is it surprising that Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and I. Lewis Libby, all influential high level administration officials who were the most vocal in pushing for war with Iraq and removal of Saddam Hussein, also happen to be among the PNACs primary members?

The first gulf war on the other hand was certainly about control over oil, i.e. who's got that control. We did not want the oil of Kuwait, and subsequently Saudi Arabia (who did not have a credible standing army that could counter Iraq's army in the late 80s, early 90s) to fall into Saddam Hussein's hands. As I told Legion earlier, we weren't attacking to take over the oil fields in the middle east. We were attacking in order to keep the middle east from being homogenized under Hussein's power. Keep in mind we supported Hussein throughout the 80s because he was the enemy of the Ayatollahs after the Iranian revolution. There is clear historical evidence that we have supported dictators in order to oppose other regimes and unfriendly governments. Saddam happened to be among that list for a time, but he quickly got off it when he went to far and tried to gain control of the oil in the middle east, which would have put our economy in a choke hold had he been successful.

We have never attacked a country in the middle east to have direct control over the oil fields, i.e. put up Exxon pumping stations and whatnot, selling to US customers at $0.50 a gallon. But we have certainly attacked in order to influence who has control over that oil. We would never be able to annex a country there. But if we install a friendly regime, that works with us outside the OPEC cartel, that would in essence shore up our energy stability and import requirements, leaving us less beholden to OPEC.

Of course we could have upped the mpg CAFE standards in 2002 to reduce our reliance on OPEC (which has really got us by the balls lately, since we're hitting $38 a barrel these days, and rising, especially when summer hits). But politics as usual poo poo'd that pragmatic piece of legislation.

4) There has never been any dispute regarding Afghanistan because it's known Afghanistan does not have many natural resources.
-----------------------------

So in short, the second gulf war was not necessarily a "war for oil." Is that part of the geopolitical interest in the middle east? Most definitely. Some people look at that statement literally and believe we're there just to put up Exxon Mobile stations and call it American, part deux. My opinion is not so blunt, but more political in nature, which I hope I've explained thoroughly.

The first gulf war was definitely a "war for oil," but without us controlling it in the end. It was a political "war for oil." It was about restoring Kuwait's oil and keeping Saudi Arabia safe. Is it any wonder that we established no-fly zones on the borders with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and Turkey, but not Jordan, Syria, and Iran? Could it be because Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait happened to be the largest sources of our imported oil from that region in 1990/1991? I certainly believe so.

Is that some nefarious scheme? No. If they came out saying "Look, we need oil. Our country can't survive without it, it's in our best interests to make sure that the world's oil supply is in the hands of 'friendly' regimes and the flow doesn't stop" then that would be the honest truth. Oil in the middle east is definitely a strategic asset, but most americans do not see the idea of colonization or supporting "evil" regimes as "what we do" here in the states. Is that a naive assumption of the world's geopolitical makeup? Certainly. Is it the truism of american public politics? Certainly. Could a realist say "We have to take over this country and/or install a friendly regime because we depend on the exports of that nation for our economic security" and get very far in politics? No.

Do I condemn that course of action and geopolitical strategy of its own merits as a truism? No.

Do I condemn the lying and massaging of the message to other things that in and of themselves we have shown to be very hypocritical on, such as removing "evil dictators" when we have propped up more evil dictators than I can count? Most definitely.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

p.s.: I'm an independent, not a democrat. :)
 
Legion said:
indio said:
Bush quote "I had a choice to make: either to take the word of a madman or take such threats seriously and defend America. Faced with that choice, I will defend America every time," Bush declared.

If he isn't taking the word of a madman how can he take his threats seriously? :LOL: Doublespeak is alive and well.The USA becomes more Orwellian by the hour.

I would say the real madmen are those still proclaiming this was a war for oil.

More specifically, a war for oil such that the US could break even the cost of the war :rolleyes:. I will never cease to be amazed the depths of what people are willing to believe wrt to antiamerican propaganda.

I fail to see what the major complaint about Bush is now. Do people really think he is a cruel murder bent on oil imperialism? It would appear the reasoning behind such is toothless.

Whether Bush lied about the WMD or not (I am convinced he did not) Saddam needed to be removed for the progress of Iraq. I was for doing this years ago. As much as people proclaim war was not the best method I failed to hear the majority of them pose anything beyond economic sanctions (which would and did hurt the Iraqis more than their leadership) to deal with the situation.

I am glad to see Iraqi's provided a chance at democracy and capitalism rather then suffer under autocratic leaderships and socialistic ideologies.

whew, lets see here:
I would say the real madmen are those still proclaiming this was a war for oil.
Hmm, who's to say it's not. Everyone knows that Bush and Cheney have connections. The Haliburton issue is a slap in the face. You really have to say it's the entire Bush administration.

Another one:
I fail to see what the major complaint about Bush is now. Do people really think he is a cruel murder bent on oil imperialism? It would appear the reasoning behind such is toothless.
Of course people think he's a cruel murderer bent on oil imperialism, look at his connections (his family, friends (bones members), and his own past). Not toothless as long as you dig a little on this guy.

And another one:
Whether Bush lied about the WMD or not (I am convinced he did not)
Let me ask you this, if Bush didn't lie about WMD's, where are they? Here's a link from way back where a whistleblower said WE tried planting the weapons. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/06/266752.shtml

The last one:
I am glad to see Iraqi's provided a chance at democracy and capitalism rather then suffer under autocratic leaderships and socialistic ideologies.
When you say provided the chance at democracy, I have to agree yet disagree. Yes, to the world it looks like they are being provided the opportunity, but when you see who's really running the show they really aren't. I say this because they are not in control, at least not until our government is out of the picture totally (that includes military and CIA (I mentioned the CIA, because if our government doesn't like who the Iraqi people vote on you can count on another Haiti incident)).
 
Let me ask you this, if Bush didn't lie about WMD's, where are they? Here's a link from way back where a whistleblower said WE tried planting the weapons. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/06/266752.shtml

Note: this isn't me discussing politics with you.

Its me belittlling you for believing that shit.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wait! Wait! There's also this posted at Tehran Times...http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=3/13/2004&Cat=4&Num=011

And Bush and all the freepers are the small minded people.


I bet the jews were behind it, too.


Seriously, though. Why even bring up unsubstantiated crap posted on Indymedia to support your points?
 
Vince said:
Natoma said:
At the time of the Iraq invasion of Kuwait in 1990, we were importing roughly 9% of our oil from them. Today it stands at 11%. Considering the proximity to Saudi Arabia, Saddam's actions were certainly a danger to our economic security

I appologize for the OT comment, it might be very simplistic and widely known, but it's just occured to me that without an Iraq sans Saddam, the United States would be forced to retain it's military presence in Saudi Arabia, primarily due to the presence of facilities we coinvested in with the Saudi's in the 1980's such as the Prince Sultan Air Base needed for the No Fly Zone and basing of the F-117. This was a major propaganda tool for groups like Al-Qaeda and other fundimantalists due to the presence of the Holy cities such as Mecca.

We since have begun to pull out of the country and I can't help but feel this is an important development wrt the cultural sensitivities of the people. A strong reason, even overlooking the other benefits of removing Saddam such as his strong support of Terrorist groups and the benefits of a free Iraq to the US's security.

I agree. This is certainly a good thing for our interests in the region. I don't think it's OT at all considering the geopolitical and religious machinations that are directly tied to our presence in the "holy land," as it were.
 
RussSchultz said:
Let me ask you this, if Bush didn't lie about WMD's, where are they? Here's a link from way back where a whistleblower said WE tried planting the weapons. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/06/266752.shtml

Note: this isn't me discussing politics with you.

Its me belittlling you for believing that shit.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wait! Wait! There's also this posted at Tehran Times...http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=3/13/2004&Cat=4&Num=011

And Bush and all the freepers are the small minded people.


I bet the jews were behind it, too.


Seriously, though. Why even bring up unsubstantiated crap posted on Indymedia to support your points?

That's fine, at least I'm willing to look at other sources of material that isn't sensored for my viewing pleasure. And I'm glad to see that you feel high and mighty to quote/unquote belittle me, because it looks like the reverse is true. ;)
 
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