Nokia's Present & Future

[wco81]

So this camera is suppose to appeal to photo enthusiasts or also non-enthusiasts?

Enthusiasts who take pictures with their phones are not going to throw their phone pics with their DSLR library.

Now they might get this phone for the better camera if it was no more expensive than other good phones, though the tradeoff is a weaker ecosystem and compromises on other specs for phones in the price range.

 

[Kaotik]

So this camera is suppose to appeal to photo enthusiasts or also non-enthusiasts?

Enthusiasts who take pictures with their phones are not going to throw their phone pics with their DSLR library.

Now they might get this phone for the better camera if it was no more expensive than other good phones, though the tradeoff is a weaker ecosystem and compromises on other specs for phones in the price range.

The saying goes, "the best camera is the one you have with you", no matter how professional or enthusiast you are you'll never have all your equipment with you all the time nor the time to set it properly up, choose right lenses etc., this is the part where having extraordinary (for a phone) camera in your phone a really welcome option even for the professionals and enthusiasts.

 

[tuna]

I think there is a market for a phone with a really good camera and I think this will sell really good.

 

[Mize]

I think there is a market for a phone with a really good camera and I think this will sell really good.

I agree. I'm no fan of WP8, but the 808 Pureview was tempting even with Symbian. I think this new Lumia looks like it could be very nice. Not as a daily driver, mind you, but as a vacation/work trip phone where photos of installations, customers, etc. would come in handy, particularly if it has good low-light (restaurants, outdoor evening/night shots, etc.) since basically every smartphone camera out there fails miserably in these situations. I mean, most smartphones can't take a simply photo of the moon at night.

 

[Mintmaster]

basically every smartphone camera out there fails miserably in these situations. I mean, most smartphones can't take a simply photo of the moon at night.

For this reason, along with the 'zooming' ability, I think this phone is going to have one of those cult-like followings spreading the word of how amazing it is, like the Galaxy Note series.

For people who care about photos - which is almost everyone - this is one of those technologies that just puts a shit eating grin across your face. 41 MP + large BSI sensor + OIS + clever software = a huge leap over everyone.

 

[Mize]

Does anyone have any details on the optics? At the end of the day, low light image quality has almost nothing to do with pixels and everything to do with etendu or light collection. For this you need a larger, higher quality lens. Yet the articles I've read so far only talk about the sensor, not the optics.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Does anyone have any details on the optics? At the end of the day, low light image quality has almost nothing to do with pixels and everything to do with etendu or light collection. For this you need a larger, higher quality lens. Yet the articles I've read so far only talk about the sensor, not the optics.

Wasn't that part of the whole point for OIS? Mitigating to an extent the need for higher quality optics designed for low light by allowing for longer exposure without the resulting image blur (when not using a tripod). Granted higher quality optics would allow for better quality photos of fast motion (where you don't want longer exposure). But how often will you need to capture fast motion in low light?

Regards,
SB

 

[french toast]

Does anyone have any details on the optics? At the end of the day, low light image quality has almost nothing to do with pixels and everything to do with etendu or light collection. For this you need a larger, higher quality lens. Yet the articles I've read so far only talk about the sensor, not the optics.

The only few details ive read about the optics are the 6 stage lens system, the 26mm wide angle lens and the ability to focus from 15cm for really close macros.
http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_lumia_1020_preview-review-952p5.php
There is a white paper floating around (haven't seen it) which should shed some light (pun intended ) on the matter.

 

[french toast]

So this camera is suppose to appeal to photo enthusiasts or also non-enthusiasts?

Enthusiasts who take pictures with their phones are not going to throw their phone pics with their DSLR library.

Now they might get this phone for the better camera if it was no more expensive than other good phones, though the tradeoff is a weaker ecosystem and compromises on other specs for phones in the price range.

This is the kind of phone where you really wont need to take a camera anymore, accept for real high end professional photo shoots.

The guy from recombu mentioned in his video that just a decent high end dslr lens that has f 2.2 and 6x zoom is a few thousand pounds Stirling...so im guessing you get your moneys worth.
Wp8 is not really a weak ecosystem anymore...its pretty decent and far far more superior than symbian belle was for the 808 which attracted a cult following even amongst pro android tech bloggers..who would carry an 808 around alongside their galaxy note 2 or iphone whatever.

Unlik the 808 the screen, OS, form factor, ecosystem and performance of the 1020 is competitive with the competition, its a respectable smartphone/media device in its own right.

Edit ive heard quite a number of tech bloggers saying this phone would he there next daily driver..including brian klugg from anandtech whos not even thst fond of wp8 himself.

Lumia 1020 im guessing is not going to be a massive sales smash hit like a new iphone or gs4, but I think it will sell well and do it amongst the tech elite, who will in turn keep the nokia message flowing through media channels giving more credibility to other more mainstream (affordable) phones, such as lumia 925.

Would have loved to of seen some up to date high emd processing though, MSM 8960 is already getting long in the tooth even with 2gb ram and an efficient OS.

 

[Ike Turner]

The Lumia 1020 whitepaper is here: http://i.nokia.com/blob/view/-/2723846/data/1/-/Lumia1020-whitepaper.pdf
Regarding the use of the MSM8960 I think that what Nokia/Microsoft have done by re-writing the whole camera stack and driver once again demonstrate their commitment to get out the best products they possibly can ASAP (GDR3 obviously wasn't going to be ready in time for the 1020.

There is IMO only one thing that a Snapdragon S800 would have brought to the table and made the 1020 an even bigger game changer: 4k video recording.

 

[Helmore]

The Snapdragon 800 also offers native support for camera sensors of up to 55 megapixels. That should have made it a lot easier to implement the 41 megapixel sensor.

 

[Mintmaster]

Does anyone have any details on the optics? At the end of the day, low light image quality has almost nothing to do with pixels and everything to do with etendu or light collection. For this you need a larger, higher quality lens. Yet the articles I've read so far only talk about the sensor, not the optics.

It's Carl Zeiss, f/2.2, 26mm equiv, optically stabilized.

To put it into perspective, f/2.2 and OIS is better than the PureView 808, and BSI alone should roughly make up for the smaller sensor area. You can see how the 808 fares against a bunch of different cameras at dpreview.

For another comparison, Four-Thirds DSLRs with kit lenses are generally f/3.5 at wide angle. At 26 mm equiv (or 13 mm actual), the entrance pupil will be 3.7mm. The Lumia 1020's actual focal length is 6.61mm, so it's entrance pupil will be 3mm. Given that the BSI sensor is about 40% more sensitive per unit area, the total light collection should be roughly equal.

So in low light, the Lumia 1020 should give you as good image quality as a Panasonic G6 (with its OIS kit lens at wide angle, set at twice the ISO to compensate for higher f-number). That's pretty freaking amazing.

 

[Mariner]

So in low light, the Lumia 1020 should give you as good image quality as a Panasonic G6 (with its OIS kit lens at wide angle, set at twice the ISO to compensate for higher f-number). That's pretty freaking amazing.

But seriously, regardless of how well designed the optics on the 1020 may be for a cameraphone, it seems very unlikely to me that it will offer shots nearly as sharp as the G6 kit lens, especially in more challenging shooting conditions.

Undoubtedly a big step ahead of other phones (but for the 808, of course) and it will probably be able to provide better images than all but the most expensive point and shoot cameras, but I can't see how it will be able to compete with DSLRs or Micro 4/3s cameras in anything but the best light. The sensor on the 1020 is still, what, a quarter of the size of the Micro 4/3 sensor?

I don't think Nokia would ever claim this could be a suitable replacement for a DSLR/M43 camera. They are looking to appeal to people who carry a point and shoot camera (probably higher-end P&S cameras as well) around with them in addition to their phone.

 

[zed]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23272758

Market research firm IDC recently carried out a survey of smartphone owners in 25 countries to identify what factors were most likely to drive future purchases.

The results placed camera resolution 15th on a list of 23 features. Audio quality for voice, battery life, device security and browsing came top of the poll.

 

[Mize]

Wasn't that part of the whole point for OIS? Mitigating to an extent the need for higher quality optics designed for low light by allowing for longer exposure without the resulting image blur (when not using a tripod). Granted higher quality optics would allow for better quality photos of fast motion (where you don't want longer exposure). But how often will you need to capture fast motion in low light?

Regards,
SB

You can never exceed optical in, period. If you cannot get more photons, you can never exceed what thw photons you collect contain.

Fast motion and lower light are interchangeable, optically. Oversampling can reduce noise but cannot exceed the "signal" of the optics.

To put it another way, film exceeds digital. Given film as the recording medium one needs better optics for better photos. So if you improve your detector, you still need better optics to realize the benefits.

 

[wco81]

Phone cameras are great for impromptu pictures, unexpected situations, etc.

Enthusiasts plan out the pictures they will take, making sure to pack certain gear, what they plan to photograph, where they plan to go.

Phone cameras are great for taking some pics from some unplanned gathering and throwing them up on social media. But most enthusiasts are going to post-process, tag and group their "keepers" in a certain way, back them up, etc.

So for this product to become a big success, it'll have to be for features other than the camera. It'll be a box to tick but by itself won't make the sale except in a small percentage of the cases.

 

[lanek]

I stopped at a Swisscom store at ZRH earlier this year.

Price for the 920 there was crazy. Around 1000 Swiss Francs at the time for one of the options.

BTW, wasn't too impressed with the speed of Swisscom's 3G networks there, though I mostly spent time around Wengen so maybe it's better in the big cities.

So does their network really get to 100 Mbps?

Sorry not see your post early..

Price here are allways crazy for all communications devices..

With the 4G you need be under an antenna and without too much peoples connected at the same time and you will maybe hit 70Mbps in this case, but otherwise, you can be happy if you hit 50Mbps in good condition. + they have choose frequencies who bring problem inside building
( bandwith will drop by half even at 1m behind a glass, its a so strange error, i ask me if they was not think it will push some peoples to use 4G modem instead of their ADSL connection and so choose a frequencies who is completely unstable inside house. ) ...

 

[Mize]

Phone cameras are great for impromptu pictures, unexpected situations, etc.

Enthusiasts plan out the pictures they will take, making sure to pack certain gear, what they plan to photograph, where they plan to go.

Phone cameras are great for taking some pics from some unplanned gathering and throwing them up on social media. But most enthusiasts are going to post-process, tag and group their "keepers" in a certain way, back them up, etc.

So for this product to become a big success, it'll have to be for features other than the camera. It'll be a box to tick but by itself won't make the sale except in a small percentage of the cases.

I disagree to a point. I get out of the car to walk into my gym at 4:45 AM and the moon and Jupiter are making quite a show in the sky - I want to take an impromptu photo of that, but all I have is my phone. It won't work.

I'm in a dimly lit restaurant with my largest Japanese client or in the Karaoke bar after - on literally all current smartphone any photos I take will be too poor to share with that client, etc. Smartphone cameras are just garbage in low light situations. If this phone has good low-light capability there are lots of non-enthusiast, non-plan-my-photos people who will want it.

 

[wco81]

Well when I first got the iPhone 5 last October, I measured 40-50 Mbps at a very busy intersection in Silicon Valley (where there seems to be a tower nearby).

Now, it's about half that, probably because there are a lot more LTE devices in use around here.

 

[wco81]

I disagree to a point. I get out of the car to walk into my gym at 4:45 AM and the moon and Jupiter are making quite a show in the sky - I want to take an impromptu photo of that, but all I have is my phone. It won't work.

I'm in a dimly lit restaurant with my largest Japanese client or in the Karaoke bar after - on literally all current smartphone any photos I take will be too poor to share with that client, etc. Smartphone cameras are just garbage in low light situations. If this phone has good low-light capability there are lots of non-enthusiast, non-plan-my-photos people who will want it.

Even in those situations, a good DSLR will need tripods or use high ISO which will induce noise.

Or people who take pictures of starry skies go through long processes to cleanly capture and then do things like exposure blending.

A phone camera may produce usable pictures in those instances but really, only marginally better than other phones.