Nokia's Present & Future

[eastmen]

Yeah, multitasking OSes can lag when you run lots of apps.
I don't get lag on my Touchpad. Didn't get it on my GS3 and don't have it on my Nexus 4...strange.
Also, the Nexus 4 is a nice phone but I really hate that I can't change the battery. On business trips I can be on the phone and internet literally all day between customer visits and can run just about any phone to zero by doing that...not having user changeable batteries is a bad idea. With my GS3 I'd just swap batteries near the end of the day and be good through dinners with clients and beyond.

I can only tell you what I know. My note 2 lags and takes a long time to load things. I do a battery pull every day or so to keep it running as fast as possible. Every 3 months or so I do a complete factory reset on my phone otherwise it starts to crawl.

These are things I never had to do with my arrive. Perhaps I just download poorly coded apps or something.

 

[Mintmaster]

And you think fighting for scraps within a platform with >70% worldwide marketshare is better than fighting for scraps within a platform with 4% worldwide marketshare, which by the way has pretty much proven itself as an absolute fail.

Care to say why?

Care to share your crystal ball with me that shows it staying at 4%? Remember when tablets were >90% iOS?

Yes, Nokia needs differentiation. Something that WP does NOT allow, and android does.

Give me a break. Nobody cares about the UI tweaks between all the Android smartphones. The only reason I care at all is because the Note 2 has a stylus, so customizations matter. WP8 has a very distinct look from all other OSes.

 

[Florin]

Care to share your crystal ball with me that shows it staying at 4%? Remember when tablets were >90% iOS?

Give me a break. Nobody cares about the UI tweaks between all the Android smartphones. The only reason I care at all is because the Note 2 has a stylus, so customizations matter. WP8 has a very distinct look from all other OSes.

Actually, OEMs care a lot. Touchwiz, Sense and MIUI deemphasize Android and say this is a Samsung or HTC first.

WP indeed has a very distinct look. Not necessarily an advantage considering that a lot of people seem strongly turned off by it.

 

[french toast]

I can only tell you what I know. My note 2 lags and takes a long time to load things. I do a battery pull every day or so to keep it running as fast as possible. Every 3 months or so I do a complete factory reset on my phone otherwise it starts to crawl.

These are things I never had to do with my arrive. Perhaps I just download poorly coded apps or something.

Yep similar story with my gs3 quad, it's lagging to hell atm, seriously thinking of doing the same, web browser crashes (all of them), games lag to hell when they shouldn't, sometimes my home screen only semi loads the icons and widgets, leaving me to restart the damn thing.

Dont get me wrong I love my gs3, most versatile phone out there, I actually have all bluetooth accessories and connect it to 46" tv and use it to browse...but boy does android lag at times, especially with many software features turned on and/ or 5 or more widgets going.

I put that down to lack of UI priority in the OS, not to mention the skinning overlay crap.
Asus actually have the right idea with the padfone line...very minor additions.

 

[Mintmaster]

As for Meego not having a chance, etc. there's a reason Samsung has it's hands in WP8 and Tizen and that's risk mitigation.

Tizen and WP8 are less used by Samsung than Symbian on Nokia, so you're only helping my case. Both Nokia and Samsung want the same OS on their whole smartphone line.

Elop could easily have shut his trap about Symbian and continued to milk that cash cow while he developed a WP7/8 line and a side-project in Meego or Android.

The cash cow was already basically dead. Nobody with half a brain would buy a high margin smartphone with Symbian from 2012 onwards (with the exception of the niche Pureview 808, where the camera makes everything else insignificant). In 2009 & 2010, margins were already way down. Motorola, Samsung, LG, and even Sony-Ericsson all bailed on Symbian before 2011.

So how can you think it was a cash cow with all these companies jumping ship? You know something they don't?

A half assed effort with WP wouldn't grow the platform the way either Nokia or MS (who paid Nokia a bundle to go all in on WP) want, and clinging on to Symbian only prolongs the period where their phone lineup has no focus.

Either way, time will tell. Let's just see where Nokia is a year after Elop killed Symbian...oh we can already see that

This is a long term plan.

 

[Mintmaster]

Actually, OEMs care a lot. Touchwiz, Sense and MIUI deemphasize Android and say this is a Samsung or HTC first.

Customers don't, though. Few people will be loyal to a brand for those UI tweaks.

WP indeed has a very distinct look. Not necessarily an advantage considering that a lot of people seem strongly turned off by it.

Opinion is definitely divided, but I still think Nokia has no chance against Samsung in the long term with a me-too OS. Even if 43% of people are dissatisfied with the Win8 UI, the remainder is still a giant base of people who would potentially appreciate a unified look between their computing devices, which is something nobody else can offer. IMO that's much more substantial than an Android skin.

With smartphones getting so powerful, I see something much bigger coming within 3 years: The full version of Windows running on your smartphone letting you run any program you want, either on the phone itself, with a PadFone type assembly, or with a dock (possibly wireless).

 

[Laurent06]

With smartphones getting so powerful, I see something much bigger coming within 3 years: The full version of Windows running on your smartphone letting you run any program you want, either on the phone itself, with a PadFone type assembly, or with a dock (possibly wireless).

And I thought it was reasonably accepted now that Android and iOS proved that most people simply don't care about full Windows and its compatibility. What most people probably care more about now is compatibility with their existing apps, which means Apple Store or Google Play. Sorry but I guess only hardcore geeks want Windows on their phones (or Linux like me, yeah I used to have a N900) and these people are a minority which wouldn't make Windows phone a success.

 

[Mize]

Yep similar story with my gs3 quad, it's lagging to hell atm, seriously thinking of doing the same, web browser crashes (all of them), games lag to hell when they shouldn't, sometimes my home screen only semi loads the icons and widgets, leaving me to restart the damn thing.

Dont get me wrong I love my gs3, most versatile phone out there, I actually have all bluetooth accessories and connect it to 46" tv and use it to browse...but boy does android lag at times, especially with many software features turned on and/ or 5 or more widgets going.

I put that down to lack of UI priority in the OS, not to mention the skinning overlay crap.
Asus actually have the right idea with the padfone line...very minor additions.

CM 10.1, done. I ditched the base ROM on my quad GS3 and ran CM9 and it was never laggy or buggy. Running CM10.1 RC on my Nexus and love it (inasmuch as I can love any version of Android which is not an OS I particularly like).

 

[Jubei]

Do apps really sell phones?

One of the big features for the Galaxy S3 was a timed exclusive for Flipboard. Samsung doesnt need to market any apps anymore because that is pretty much assumed it will be equivalent to iPhone, because Samsungs marketing is pretty much dedicated towards showing its better than iOS, so they obviously market the features that makes it stand out over the iPhone. But without Play store and all its apps, you dont think all the joe schmos that buy these would get upset that its lacking this or that app that came out last year for iPhone?

A big part of the Android installed base is still on Gingerbread, supposedly. If they wanted to, they could fork Jelly Bean or stay on JB and just update the hardware and continue developing their proprietary shell and apps.

By that time HTC and some other OEMs may be dead.

Well as i said, Samsung doesnt have the software infrastructure to fork Android, that would require massive data servers and an existing software ecosystem in place, S-voice and air view etc are just simple features, doing one doesnt mean you could do the other

But you have also misinterpreted either the original article from WSJ or read a parroted one from someone who didnt understand it.

Google is paying Samsung, but it has nothing to do with using their services, Google pays all the OEMs and the operators, roughly 40% of the Android ad money is divided up between OEMs and operators. What Samsung wants is a bigger piece of that pie

As for the rest of the OEMs being dead in the future, most of them keep improving their shipment numbers every quarter, companies like LG and Sony have problems within their other divisions so they take losses as a whole but their Android divisions are doing just fine. HTC is really the only one doing poorly wich has then been blown over proportion

If OEMs are smart and launch phones when there is Apple/Samsung fatigue, they can curve out their own piece of the market. LG did it this christmas with Optimus G and Sony did it with Xperia Z (the osbourne effect however brought down Sonys total shipments this quarter)

Thats not including the chinese OEMs like ZTE and Huawei that keep improving in triple digits. The biggest semiconductor company this year was not Qualcomm or Intel, it was chinese Allwinner. Even Samsung is going to be in trouble at the low end eventually

 

[french toast]

CM 10.1, done. I ditched the base ROM on my quad GS3 and ran CM9 and it was never laggy or buggy. Running CM10.1 RC on my Nexus and love it (inasmuch as I can love any version of Android which is not an OS I particularly like).

I should have ditched the touch whizz when you did
Still, that doesn't change the fact android gets bogged down all too easy on even latest versions and uber powerfull hardware...numerous reviews have made mention on ui lag on even galaxy s4...although to be fair htc one seems lag free.

Not everyone wants to piss about with custom roms mize.

 

[Mize]

I should have ditched the touch whizz when you did
Still, that doesn't change the fact android gets bogged down all too easy on even latest versions and uber powerfull hardware...numerous reviews have made mention on ui lag on even galaxy s4...although to be fair htc one seems lag free.

Not everyone wants to piss about with custom roms mize.

I admit, my experience with Android is basically Cyanogenmod and ParanoidAndroid ROMs as I did find the default Samsung HMI a bit cumbersome and bloated. I have several colleagues and friends who really like touchwhizz and all of its gaudiness though. Anyway, I've never said Android was a great OS, just that it offers some very basic things that WP8 doesn't. webOS and MeeGo were both superior to Android with more functionality. Simple things like having a volume appear as a USB stick when connected to a computer's USB port should be integral in any mobile phone OS IMHO...along with direct file system access.

 

[french toast]

Yea well like you and a few others on here I was excited with the prospect of a symbian/meego low/high end combination.

Meego had the potential to be amazing with skimpy system needs and many features through out, not to mention the ease of development promised with QT.

Can you imagine a meego version 3.0 running on Snapdragon S600?? Mouth watering prospect, meego version 1 in the held back n900 was selling quite well as it already apealed to the nokia hardcore.

Elop should get the sack by the years end if results dont improve radically, I wouldnt mind nokia adopting android for a couple of high end devices, with wp8 catering for mainstream media consumption phones.

Window's phone 8 could have been amazing, microsoft made a massive mistake in launching 3 different operating systems/versions.

There should have been full phat windows 8...and windows RT/Windows phone should have been merged into the same thing.

That would have helped solve the lack of features of windows phone, simplify product range and allow people like me to have one device to do everything.

Microsoft is trying to be apple and force people into seperate product lines, what they should have done was hit apple and android right where it hurts and offer the best of both worlds.

Also once again windows phone fell behind the technology curve in terms with hardware, I mean why launch wp8/rt with 720p screens and soon to be replaced processors when next gen technology is just about to launch on your rivals?

Here we have the top of the range lumia 928 launching with essentially the same specs from last year, only with a hardly groumdbreaking or even needed xenon flash, and a better speaker. ..not to mention its even THICKER than the already bulky 920.. (albeit lighter)...it doesnt even offer a competitive battery size for its bulk.

They need to wake up and wake up quick.

 

[Mariner]

My brother in law loved his Galaxy S but would never even contemplate rooting the phone or installing a custom ROM and he was often frustrated by poor battery life and glitches from the official TouchWiz ROMs. He's moved on to an iPhone 4S (which has been replaced twice after Wifi failure!) and is very happy with it.

My sister inherited the SGS and is extremely pleased with it since I installed CM9.1. I keep asking if she wants me to upgrade to a Jellybean ROM but she's happy with performance, battery life etc as it stands and hasn't encountered the same issues that her husband did. I think that ultimately, I wouldn't buy an Android phone which couldn't be hacked as the enthusiast development scene invariably produces much superior ROMs to the stock ones issued by the IHVs themselves.

I can't say that I find too many issues with lag on my 2 year old Atrix (currently running MIUI). In any case, what does it really matter? Android may lag in the interface slightly from time to time, but this doesn't mean it is any slower to actually run apps than iOS or WP. As I understand things, these may seem to appear 'faster' due to the priority given to the interface but total loading times are pretty much the same from initialisation.

 

[silent_guy]

Please cite and example.

There's nothing to cite. Just personal experience. Some call it pseudo-psychological bullshit because they don't feel it. Good for them.

I just moved and entire product line from windows embedded to linux and it screams post change. What lag am I missing? Why do seconds counted off a clock count less than the thing you can see but nobody else can?

Car analogy alert! Your mistaking top speed for acceleration.

It thought it was completely obvious that I'm not talking about processing speed. And we've seen in other instances that superior computing throughput can be completely unrelated to thing like stutter experience.

There's a reason all UIs have moved to tiny animations that are functionally completely unnecessary: they are just very pleasing to some part of our brain. (See here.) Yes, psychological stuff, but it's impossible to deny that it plays a big role in how we feel about an interface. Android UIs can best be described as an uncanny valley of user interfaces. It comes very close to being right, but it's not, and it grates. Bounces are lacking (yay, patents), lag is just a bit too high, physics of scroll acceleration are right etc.

It has nothing to do with CPU performance etc. and I'd switch to Android the moment these issues are finally put to rest.

I'm happy to hear, though, that your point of sales terminal (or whatever embedded project it is you're working on) doesn't stutter anymore.

 

[silent_guy]

I was yesterday night with an iphone 5 and it's always the same. I found it to be slower than my HTC One at loading webpages, loading heavier games, loading music from the cloud and scrolling through videos.

And that relates to stutter how?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

And that relates to stutter how?

It stutters like hell when panning through some web pages.
I can't stand all that stuttering.

 

[Mintmaster]

And I thought it was reasonably accepted now that Android and iOS proved that most people simply don't care about full Windows and its compatibility. What most people probably care more about now is compatibility with their existing apps, which means Apple Store or Google Play. Sorry but I guess only hardcore geeks want Windows on their phones (or Linux like me, yeah I used to have a N900) and these people are a minority which wouldn't make Windows phone a success.

It's about convergence. iPod sales shrank with the rise of smartphones. iPods are better at storing/playing MP3's, but at a certain point you'd pass on that for the convenience of one device.

It'll probably take 5+ years before it becomes the norm, but I don't see how it doesn't happen. You install your apps once, and you have them everywhere without sync issues or dependency on a cloud connection. You save money because your hybrid device has only one CPU, storage drive, etc.

Android and iOS really haven't proven anything yet, because the Windows competition wasn't there and it still is pretty nascent. iPod sales didn't go down right away. Only when smartphones had enough storage capacity and reached high enough volume did it happen.

I really think netbooks are a great example about the power of Windows compatibility. By their very name they only need a browser to handle 95% of what they were meant to do. Still, people figured they may as well spring for the Windows version. Once the price premium becomes minimal, the same will happen with tablets, and finally smartphones.

 

[tuna]

Even if 43% of people are dissatisfied with the Win8 UI, the remainder is still a giant base of people who would potentially appreciate a unified look between their computing devices, which is something nobody else can offer. IMO that's much more substantial than an Android skin.

I can not imagine why I would want a unified look on my computing devices.

 

[silent_guy]

It stutters like hell when panning through some web pages.
I can't stand all that stuttering.

That's definitely a deal breaker. Looks like that iPhone is not one for you.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I can not imagine why I would want a unified look on my computing devices.

Single device for all kinds of computing doesn't mean it'll have an unified look for every type of interactivity.
With windows 8, a x86 tablet can have the metro UI when in tablet mode and the usual windows desktop with the start button when there's a mouse+keyboard present.