NoA: Revolution very sleek. uses standard DVD. horizontally.

[jvd]

Wasn't a positive for blu-ray was that the transfer rates are WAY faster than DVDs. How can that not help gameplay.

whats the speed diffrence between a 12x dvd drive and a 1x bluray . How does cost factor into how much better it is .

M$ can add overall units sold without Sony losing marketshare. If the overall number of gamers grow this can expand M$ marketshare. Also helping Sony. If your numbers are correct wouldn't that be an obvious victory for Sony over M$ and Nintendo?

it wouldn't be a flat out victory as they lost share but over all yes . However the market would still expand with my numbers about 30-40 millin more people buying this generation .


What i want is 2 strong players with almost even amounts of the market and a very strong 3rd player (if we can get a good 4th player i'm all for it ) because as a consumer it means better hardware and games cheaper and sooner .

I don't want any of the 3 console makers we have right now to go out of busniess but idon't want a repeate of this gen where sony has the market basicly all to its self and you shouldn't either . Because if ms fails to gain ground and nintendo looses more soon it will only be sony and we will be waiting longer for sony to change platforms and the jumps will be less and less each time as they wont need to spend the money they are spending now

 

[mckmas8808]

Because if ms fails to gain ground and nintendo looses more soon it will only be sony and we will be waiting longer for sony to change platforms and the jumps will be less and less each time as they wont need to spend the money they are spending now

It will never be only Sony. Nintendo is making way too much money to just jump out. I think you forgot that gaming is all Nintendo has. If it drops that then they have nothing to do. I want Sony to do exactly what they did this generation because I want Sony to easily prevail in the videogame sector. I also want Sony to dominate in the handheld department too. I love Sony so of course I would feel this way. If M$ drops off then some other competitor will show up and try to become a major player.

(if we can get a good 4th player i'm all for it ) because as a consumer it means better hardware and games cheaper and sooner .

There has never been 4 huge competing players in videogame history and there may never be.

whats the speed diffrence between a 12x dvd drive and a 1x bluray . How does cost factor into how much better it is .

I'm talking about the blu-ray having a data transfer rate of 54 Mbps and DVDs only having a weak 11.1 Mbps. Blu-Ray also has more video compressions like MPEG4 and VC-1.
________
Bmw 600 History

 

[SanGreal]

San Andreas and MGS3 were DL. Both of those games pretty much filled up the disc.

I don't know where you heard this, but you are wrong. Neither game is DL let alone filling a DL disk. San Andreas was said to be DL before it came out. Upon release, it was found not to be so. Don't take my word for it.. copy either to a dvd-r and see that it fits no problem.

 

[jvd]

It will never be only Sony. Nintendo is making way too much money to just jump out. I think you forgot that gaming is all Nintendo has. If it drops that then they have nothing to do. I want Sony to do exactly what they did this generation because I want Sony to easily prevail in the videogame sector. I also want Sony to dominate in the handheld department too. I love Sony so of course I would feel this way. If M$ drops off then some other competitor will show up and try to become a major player.

Fine so nintendo with 20 million consoles is going to make sony scared ? Sony can stll prolong launches as much as they want .


As for ms dropping out and someone else coming around , the costs of launching a console at this point in time is so huge that very few companys can afford to do it . Its like the gpu market , its basicly ati and nvidia , there may never be a new company in the market with any clout .

There has never been 4 huge competing players in videogame history and there may never be.

sure there was , till the market crashed .

There could very well be again. Just as long as one company doesn't have 90% of the mareket .

I'm talking about the blu-ray having a data transfer rate of 54 Mbps and DVDs only having a weak 11.1 Mbps. Blu-Ray also has more video compressions like MPEG4 and VC-1.

a 12 x dvd rom is around 20mbps not 11.1 . So yes blu-ray has a higher speed but it costs alot more .

As for mpeg4 and vc-1 u can put both of them on a dvd and use them . You just need hardware that is capable of decoding it .

 

[Li Mu Bai]

You absolutely do not need a "next-gen" format like BR to be successful, or even capture a large segment of the market as long as you support HDTV resolutions, an online component, & possibly DVD playback.

Yeah you don't "got" to have it. I don't really need doors on my car either but I'm glad I do.(Think UPS drivers) You catch my drift. So, Li mu Bai I guess you have to support HD resolution thou. Ok support HD games but not full HD movies. Last generation I remember people actually saying that the online side of gaming would not be that big of a deal. Now look at the main problem with GT4. NO online play. You have to understand next-gen media is needed.

8,5GB on a single disc is enough, if not just use two. Games don't need more than that.

Oh so I guess 6 years ago when gamers didn't really need more than 700 MBs of gaming space moving to a DVD format was not needed either huh? So when the PS4 is released why not make the system with a DVD tray too. According to you the DVD media should be used for gaming for over a decade. Why not go back to games on CDs and releasing them on 4 CDs. That sounds like a good idea right?

Please, by 2008 all games on the PS3 will be using the next gen media if Sony decides to put in the PS3. You watch and see.

Doors to Blu-ray support......hmmmmm an inept analogy if ever there was one made. HD movie support will only be important to the high-end market, not the casual core base who will purchase it for IPs, an online community, graphics, & great games. You're "overstating" its general importance within the larger scheme of things. Red laser isn't going anywhere soon, this isn't a beta vs. VHS scenario, despite the ugrade in technology.

All the sudden 8.5 gigs isn't enough? Yet you all act as if advanced data compression techniques *gasp* will not be implemented if this does cause porting issues, or devs. requiring the extra space. (free of artifacts) Strange that some of the largest & longest games I've played appeared on a 1.5gb disc.

 

[mckmas8808]

8.5 GB HD movies that are super compressed will not look as good as movies on a blu-ray disc plain and simple. I'm not saying that its a must but, it could be a small reason why if Sony decides to go with it could turn a few million units away from M$ and to Sony instead.

Li Mu I'm not saying what you feel is wrong. When next-gen movies hit the world would you want to lose millions of consoles because you didn't implement it in your console. People on this very board today are claiming that M$ could add a HD-DVD exclusive drive into their console in 2006 or 2007 and sell it as a higher form Xbox 360. They are not saying this for no reason, but because they know it makes sense. If Sony bets them to it and can sell it at a normal $300 price instead of a premium unit Sony wins there.

When next-gen movies catch on and the media merger happens Sony looks like true winners in movie media. I understand that consoles are here to play games, but at the same time if Sony wants to give me the console with a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD drive more power to us. Whats the true problem?
________
Volcano digital vaporizer

 

[Pete]

Next gen tech normally is bigger than past tech.

That explains why Gamecube is smaller than Nintendo/Famicom.

When Nintendo pulls this off this will be a change in past trends and kudos to Nintendo for being able to do that.

Please refer to the sarcasm above.

I dunno, Bluray may not be that expensive to integrate, and as Bluray movies are headed our way anyway, all Sony would be doing would be to maybe push their Bluray disc presses up a bit. I can't imagine the laser itself would cost that much (but I expect to be proven wrong any minute now ). Apparently HD displays already highlight MPEG2's deficiency, so maybe supporting the next movie format with a console aimed at HDTVs is a good idea.

OTOH, they could just use different compression (MPEG4, Divx, Xvid, etc.) on plain old DVDs to make the most out of the space they're given. The point is, though, that movie studios will probably transition to another physical media rather than just change compression for the current media.

 

[jvd]

8.5 GB HD movies that are super compressed will not look as good as movies on a blu-ray disc plain and simple. I'm not saying that its a must but, it could be a small reason why if Sony decides to go with it could turn a few million units away from M$ and to Sony instead.

who is talking movies ? We are talking video games , this is a video game system last time i checked correct ?

When next-gen movies hit the world would you want to lose millions of consoles because you didn't implement it in your console

Better than getting stuck with a format that is obsolete which is just as likely as ms loosing sales from nothing having a next gen optical drive in it .

People on this very board today are claiming that M$ could add a HD-DVD exclusive drive into their console in 2006 or 2007 and sell it as a higher form Xbox 360.

they can and in late 2006 or 2007 xbox 360 will be much cheaper to produce than it is now . If its 2007 then x360 can put in which ever format is ahead in the war . Also if its 2007 costs of the x360 will be greatly reduced from the shift to 65nm .

Thus gamers don't loose out on more powerfull hardware for a next gen optical format that may or may not be a dead end and those who want a cheaper hd-dvd / bluray player and game console can pick it up when there is alot of content to warrent it (in regards to movies )

If Sony bets them to it and can sell it at a normal $300 price instead of a premium unit Sony wins there.

No , Sony will hae a higher installed base but many will buy a ps3 instead of a bluray stand alone player . The bluray stand alone player will make sony alot of money per system sold . The ps3 will loose alot of money sold . If people are buying it as a cheap next gen movie player and aren't buying games then sony looses money

When next-gen movies catch on and the media merger happens Sony looks like true winners in movie media. I understand that consoles are here to play games, but at the same time if Sony wants to give me the console with a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD drive more power to us. Whats the true problem?

so in 4-5 years when next gen optical formats catch on and start to hit the lvls of titles and releases that dvd had in 2000 we will be happy sony put the drive in ? I'm sorry but all of us here will be talking about the ps4 by then

When the ps2 launched dvd was already established . It was mass produced and it was growing like wildfire .

When the ps3 launches bluray will just becoming out at resonable prices and have a small selection of movies .

Its a whole diffrent time . We get that you like sony , but your only look at the bluray drive from one angle .

 

[mckmas8808]

Better than getting stuck with a format that is obsolete which is just as likely as ms loosing sales from nothing having a next gen optical drive in it .

How do you possibly know that this will happen. If Sony and Toshiba merge their media then what you just stated is mute and means nothing. If they don't then you have a point.

they can and in late 2006 or 2007 xbox 360 will be much cheaper to produce than it is now . If its 2007 then x360 can put in which ever format is ahead in the war . Also if its 2007 costs of the x360 will be greatly reduced from the shift to 65nm .

Why is it that if M$ adds it one to two years later to a format that wouldn't be the obvious winner and that has less overall support it makes sense.
Lets be honest not one sided. At least I can say you might be right if things don't do right you can't even get me or my predictions any chance.

If people are buying it as a cheap next gen movie player and aren't buying games then sony looses money

At least Sony would be growing their installed base of console sells that the everyday consumer wouldn't have spent on a new high priced Blu-Ray machine anyway. Who knows maybe that person would have a nephew or couison that could come over to the house to play games on in the future.

so in 4-5 years when next gen optical formats catch on and start to hit the lvls of titles and releases that dvd had in 2000 we will be happy sony put the drive in ? I'm sorry but all of us here will be talking about the ps4 by then

So your betting that the next gen media will just so happen to start when next generation video games will be produced. Are you joking or are you serious. 2010 thats crazy. The HVD will probably be in businesses by then. I can promise you that some form of next gen media will be out years before that. And why would M$ think about implementing HD-DVD into their console in 2007 if next-gen movies aren't going to hit it off big until 2009 or 2010? Step your game up jvd, think logically about this stuff.

I do agree with you in a way, if Sony and Toshiba don't merge their media formats then Sony adding it to their console will be a big risk.
________
Glass bongs

 

[trinibwoy]

*edit*

 

[jvd]

How do you possibly know that this will happen. If Sony and Toshiba merge their media then what you just stated is mute and means nothing. If they don't then you have a point.

How do you know they will merge

You are talking about bluray not a combined standard . If its bluray it can be a dead end . If its a combined standard it may push the ps3 back a few months till the drives and media are ready .

Why is it that if M$ adds it one to two years later to a format that wouldn't be the obvious winner and that has less overall support it makes sense.

If ms goes with the one in the lead chances are it will create a bigger lead. So if bluray is off to a big lead then they can put that in .

As for adding it in , Thats because in 2 years the console itself will cost less . Thus nothing in the console when it launched has to be sacrficed. You can add in bluray play or hd-dvd for movies two years later and be fine . Games will continue to come on dvds and those with the bluray / hd dvd x360 can watch movies too.

Ms can do this 2 years later when the system is down to 200$ or less and sell it for 250$ or 300$ and make money off it . Where as if sony launches with it from the start it will add to the cost of the system when the cost is most expensive .

Lets be honest not one sided. At least I can say you might be right if things don't do right you can't even get me or my predictions any chance.

Its not lop sided at all.

Look adding in anything costs money. There is a finite amount of money sony can loose or wants to loose per system at launch. Remember every 1$ over 300$ is another 1$ the system needs to reduce in cost before sony makes a profit and its another 1$ more if they have to lower the system price in case the x360 is outselling it by large amounts (or the ns5)

It also means that less powerfull hardware can be put in as the loss per system will be to high . You can't loose 200$ a system and have a system do bad on the market . That is large losses

At least Sony would be growing their installed base of console sells that the everyday consumer wouldn't have spent on a new high priced Blu-Ray machine anyway. Who knows maybe that person would have a nephew or couison that could come over to the house to play games on in the future.

Mabye but who is going to buy a bluray player with high margins for sony prob like 400-500% mark up if they can get it in a ps3 where sony is loosing money ? Sure sony makes moeny off the movies too , but not as much as off games that they can sell.

So your betting that the next gen media will just so happen to start when next generation video games will be produced. Are you joking or are you serious. 2010 thats crazy

No that is not what i'm saying . Hd-dvd starts this year . However it will not be at the pont that dvd was at for at least 3 years . Bluray will be 3 years also. That brings us from the ps3 launch to 2009 launch. Factor in the war and thats even less titles out for each format , factor in the adoption rate of hd-tv .

It takes time for thigns to start going . Its not like sony is going to launch bluray and suddenly its going to sell media as well or be as in demand and popular as a 10 year old format that has sold in the billions of players and has a huge library of movies

And why would M$ think about implementing HD-DVD into their console in 2007 if next-gen movies aren't going to hit it off big until 2009 or 2010? Step your game up jvd, think logically about this stuff.

in 2007 the cost of the next gen optical drive will not cost ms hardware . It iwll cost money yes , but they can sell it as a special bundle for extra money and recoup the cost of the drive .

Sony can do the same thing . In 2 or 3 years a bluray / hd-dvd drive will be much cheaper . That is what happens . Today and in 2006 when they are launching they will be much more expensive. Same goes for the hardware in them

Once again in terms of the formats things don't take off over night , it will take years for bluray or hd-dvd to become as popular as dvd was at the ps2 launch (dvd was out already for 3-4 years , believe it came out late 96 or 97)

Do you see what i'm trying to say ?

 

[Pozer]

Kinda shows where the focus is going nextgen. MS and Nintendo are trying to deliver a video game system and Sony is trying to deliver an appliance that will be able to play Spiderman 4, 5,6, at ultra high resolutions and make royalties from studios and PC users.

 

[Ooh-videogames]

Revolution talk just flew right out the window, please people stay on topic.

 

[PC-Engine]

GCN is smaller not to mention cheaper than both PS2 and Xbox. It's power is between PS2 and Xbox. Revolution is coming out after Xbox360 and about the same time as PS3. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Ooh-videogames]

No doubts at all.

 

[Pozer]

back on topic. Im not so sure Revolution will come out as late as people think. I'm expecting that either Sony or Nintendo will accelerate their launches. As for Dual Core GPU's on the Rev.. I can see that falling inline with the VR type setup. One core to render the back plane and one for the front plane.

As for the cosmetic design. Im sure it will look nice. GC was a great design. All Nintendo systems have been good designs except the American SNES. N64 was really nice (not as good as the ps1 but still good).

 

[PC-Engine]

As for Dual Core GPU's on the Rev.. I can see that falling inline with the VR type setup. One core to render the back plane and one for the front plane.

That's pretty damn good speculation, since it's both realistic and feasible!

 

[orfanotna]

From nintendo.com:

Nintendo's legions of loyal fans will be happy to learn that Revolution will be backward compatible, playing both Nintendo GameCube 8cm disks along with its own 12cm optical disks in the same self-loading media drive.

DVDs are 12cm, but what do they mean by "its own disks?" Maybe they won't be using DVDs afterall, or use some modified version of the DVD format.

 

[Ooh-videogames]

Is it possible the rumored 4 core processor for the Revolution could be using IBM's (Straind Silicone Directly on Insulator)SSDOI? Here's a link,http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/pr.nsf/pages/rsc.cmos-perf.html?Open&printable

I've read other articles mentioning the Cell may use this tech aswell, I haven't seen any articles that mention the XB360 CPU. Also AMD is also at work using this tech aswell as Intel who has there on fabrication process called HOT(Hybrid Orientation Technique).

Being able reduce the power consumption would seem to be justfication for designing such a small console without hindering performance.

 

[Acert93]

Not only was the difference in space much more apparent and much more needed with CD/DVD than with DVD/Bluray/HDDVD, DVD was much further along in it's development. By the time PS2 hit, there were DVD players in millions of people's homes, thousands of titles were released, and every video store carried them. Everyone knew it was "the next big thing". You could walk out onto the street and ask anyone and they'd know about DVD, and would probably tell you they planned on getting one once the prices dropped a bit. Ask people now about Blueray and you're likely to get a big "huh" out of 95+% of the populace. The mindshare just isn't there to make it an attractive selling point to most of the public.

I agree with Clashman. Also:

1. You cannot compare previous generation storage needs directly; you need to examine the reasons driving the need for more space. FMV and Audio tracks were a big motivator from the 16bit to the 32bit era. This recent generation has seen a need for more high resolution textures and expansive worlds. What will the next generation need? So far they appear to be natural progression of the current needs and not the massive leap needed for FMV and audio tracks.

2. This can be seen in PC games. PC games like HL2, Doom 3, FarCry would all fit onto 1 DVD. These games have large worlds, high resolution textures intended to be run on High Definition display devises (your typically resolution for a gamer is 1024x768 to 1600x1200). These games also are designed to run on systems that have 256MB of video memory for the highest detailed textures and new games like BF2 are requiring 512MB of system memory on top of this. Yet with PCs with such expansive memory configurations we are still seeing games fit on 1 DVD. As next gen games will be using similar resolutions and similar hardware, it follows that they would be inline with PC needs. In this regards, ~8.5GB seems more than adequate.

3. Game art and assets do not come free. This limitation is not technical but financial: It costs money and time to create game content. Exceeding 8.5GB of game data is not economical for 99% of games at this time, and it wont be any time soon with the increasing demand for production quality and game interactivity. While it would be nice to have games that have 25GB of game data, very few studios will be able to fill a standard DVD, let alone an 8.5GB one. Square-Enix and PS (GT5 or 6) may be the exceptions as they tend to push the limitations of their storage. But these studios have more artists than most developers have working on a game and have budgets multifold larger. It just is not realistic to expect many games to exceed 8.5GB. And the few that might can do disc swapping.

4. Xbox 360 laid down the gauntlet with 512MB of memory. Sony and Nintendo really have no choice but to follow. In this regards a 12x DVD drive is a better solution than a 1x BR because a 12x DVD drive is faster than a 1x BR drive. A 12x DVD can transfer about 15.85MB/s (http://www.osta.org/technology/dvdqa/dvdqa4.htm), while a 1x BR has a data transfer rate of about transfers about 6.75MB/s (http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/). (Note the BR site uses Mb which is megabits; you can test this by looking at the 36Mbps write rate that takes 93min to fill a 25GB disk, which clearly shows this is a Mb and not a MB... far too many sites use MB and Mb interchably).

To load 512MB of memory we are looking at theoretical fastest transfers of 32 seconds for a 12X DVD drive and 75 seconds for a 1x BR drive. Even a 2x BR will lag behind a 12x DVD in theoretical transfer times. Load times are a big issue with games. We often neglect the little things when comparing systems, but if it takes on average 2x as long to load a game on a system it could be a turn off.

5. The Xbox 360 has a 20GB HDD and there is no doubt in my mind part of that drive will be used to increase transfer rates by using the HDD as a buffer and hold frequently accessed game assets. A 12x DVD + HDD combination is going to be a lot faster than a 1x BR drive.

6. DVD drives are not only cheaper to get, but also available in quantity. Neither BR or HD-DVD is available in high quantities at the moment. Having a shortage of consoles because the HD drives are in short demand would be suicide. Unlike Sony, MS and Nintendo do not make their own drives, not point limiting their consoles by production of a new device that is more expensive.

7. DVD drives are a known quality--they have been around in the mass market for well over 7 years. They are sturdy, reliable, and high quality at cheap prices. I would guess that the quality between a low end BR / HD-DVD drive (like what will be in a console) and an expensive unit will be significant. Bleeding edge technology is not usually something to test on the generally unforgiving general populace.

And then there are all the issues of what standard--BR, HD-DVD, or a Hybred compromise--will be the standard.


Overall, I think Nintendo will be better off with a HDD and a DVD drive than going with a HD format--unless a unified format is agreed upon, and cheap licensing, can be agreed upon very soon. Movie playback is a plus, but as Clashman noted: DVD drives and movies were a known factor when the PS2 arrived. People had them at home and they were renting movies from Blockbuster a couple years before the PS2 came out. My local movie store does not even know what BR is, let alone carry rental units and BR movies.

Sony has every reason to throw a BR drive into their device--market penatration. Good move. But it is too early in the game for MS and Nintendo to take this risk as they have not consumer electronic department with sagging sales.