Nintendo's hardware choice philosophy *spawn

[ERP]

Coherency updates could be communicated directly from cache to cache, it doesn't necessarily have to go through main memory. Like what Intel provides with the F state in the MESIF protocol.

Is there any really definitive source on the alleged L2 arrangement? The only one I'm aware of is a pretty old rumor..

The old rumor matches what I was told by another developer.
I'd guess some metric somewhere led them to the 2MB cache size for the "primary" processor, and die size probably dictated the size of the other caches.
The caches being separate is probably a function of the easiest way to implement the snoop logic on an existing processor.
It's not a horrible arrangement if you look at how games use the PS360 processors and if the snoop logic moves data L2 to L2.

 

[TheLump]

So what happened in the end? Xbox 360 went down in production costs and the thing makes a profit now. Nintendo has just entered the market in a desperate attempt to continue the success of the Wii and now they are having an uphill battle. Favoring raw performance in a Cadillac is different than favoring build quality in a tricycle. They will be morons if the WiiU is a flop like it should be.

If that ethos were true then Apple would be in big trouble

I'm not putting Apple and Nintendo build quality in the same league (and certainly not UI or useability!!) but they too put reliability, profit and build quality above raw performance, similar to Nintendo. They also don't chase specifications set by other manufactureres, sometimes to a fault. For better or worse.

I'll reserve judgment on whether it's the right decision this time, or whether it will pay off etc. I can understand why some think it will fail, and understand why some want it to fail. But I dont understand people saying it "should" fail.

 

[liolio]

If that ethos were true then Apple would be in big trouble

I'm not putting Apple and Nintendo build quality in the same league (and certainly not UI or useability!!) but they too put reliability, profit and build quality above raw performance, similar to Nintendo. They also don't chase specifications set by other manufacturers, sometimes to a fault. For better or worse.

I'll reserve judgment on whether it's the right decision this time, or whether it will pay off etc. I can understand why some think it will fail, and understand why some want it to fail. But I dont understand people saying it "should" fail.

Sorry but Apple hardware is pretty much always top notch even though it comes at a premium but not ass big as most haters think. I personally doesn't like their product, I never got used to either the full blown OS or iOS, I don't like the "fan halo" surrounding their products but quality is here.
Not to mention that Apple has now pretty outstanding engineering team. To me there last CPU seems to be the best low power CPU around, it is not as fast as say a A15 but I would say that it is overall better. Their screens are top of the line too.
----------------
I was with my wife at best buy this week end, and I realize most likely why Nintendo doesn't sell the wiiumote by it self, I think that if people saw the rumored 120$ price tag they would be possibly more wary about buying the system. I hope they get prices down on that part as it is unacceptable for what it is.

 

[TheLump]

Sorry but Apple hardware is pretty much always top notch even though it comes at a premium but not ass big as most haters think. I personally doesn't like their product, I never got used to either the full blown OS or iOS, I don't like the "fan halo" surrounding their products but quality is here.
Not to mention that Apple has now pretty outstanding engineering team. To me there last CPU seems to be the best low power CPU around, it is not as fast as say a A15 but I would say that it is overall better. Their screens are top of the line too.
----------------
I was with my wife at best buy this week end, and I realize most likely why Nintendo doesn't sell the wiiumote by sell, I think that if people saw the rumored 120$ price tag they would be possibly more wary about buying the system. I hope they get prices down on that part as it is unacceptable for what it is.

Thats what I'm saying: Apple's products are about build quality, profit and useabiliy over cutting edge hardware power. iPhones and iPads aren't pushing the power envelope,(edit, eg: show me some iPhone specs and I'll show you a more powerful & cheaper Android device from the same generation) But they are still supremeley refined and reliable.

To clarify - Nintendo & Apple are not really comparable, I was just pointing out the flaw in implying a product should fail because it wasn't aiming to outmuscle its competition. I was replying to a post which i think was likening Nintendo's approach to favouring build quality in a tricycle, rather than raw power in a cadilac. To humour that analogy further - there's nothing wrong with building a good quality Tricycle when you're goal is to build a good quallity Tricycle.

 

[ERP]

Different markets.

The issue with being underpowered in the games industry is that you don't get the work from the 'A' Teams. The key people in those teams can pretty much go work anywhere and generally they want to work on the boutique platform.
Yes at some level marketing and sales dictate the platform targets, but I've seen companies hemorrhage good staff over dictating that they work on something they don't want to.

 

[sebbbi]

show me some iPhone specs and I'll show you a more powerful & cheaper Android device from the same generation)

iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4G, iPhone 5. Not a single phone from the same generation can beat the Apple phones in GPU benchmarks. Apple has the most powerful GPUs in mobile phones.

 

[TheLump]

iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4, iPhone 4G, iPhone 5. Not a single phone from the same generation can beat the Apple phones in GPU benchmarks. Apple has the most powerful GPUs in mobile phones.

wasn't 4 and 4g all outpaced by Desire, Evo Galaxy S on the CPU front though?? Took Apple an age to bother with multicore CPUs and add things like multitasking to their o/s. And I thought HTC One X and Galaxy S3 out muscle iPhone 5 comfortably dont they? Maybe I'm mistaken. They still don't value specs over profit/build quality though - which was my point. I think...

Not to mention tablets - there are plenty with more spectacular specs than iPad 2, 3 and mini. But none compete for build quality and UI/useability.

 

[Arwin]

Useability is the most important thing I value about Apple. Everything else is debateable, although in the portable device area they definitely do manage to produce very competitive hardware whichever way you look at it.

To bring that back to Nintendo, I definitely value Nintendo for their accessibility.

 

[Kaotik]

And I thought HTC One X and Galaxy S3 out muscle iPhone 5 comfortably dont they?

You forgot One S which out muscles One X in many if not most cases, they're all quite close to each other IIRC

 

[TheLump]

Useability is the most important thing I value about Apple. Everything else is debateable, although in the portable device area they definitely do manage to produce very competitive hardware whichever way you look at it.

To bring that back to Nintendo, I definitely value Nintendo for their accessibility.

I realise it seems like I'm bashing Apple. I'm not, I love 'em! I've just never bought an apple product because it's the most powerful in its genre, but because it works and because it's a quality product. Ive lost my original point somewhat!

I think it was that, like Nintendo, apple play to their own tune, value making a profit on their products, make reliable products and don't chase the bleeding edge. It was a none-point really, just thought it was worth pointing out in the context of the earlier posts.

I'm not trying to liken the two.

You forgot One S which out muscles One X in many if not most cases, they're all quite close to each other IIRC

Other way round I think. One X is the premium (typing on one now!) One S is the mid range.

 

[TheLump]

What's so stunning about the Wii U from a quality standpoint? I still can't believe that it misses even basic things like hard drive caching for games.

Build quality is what I was referring to. It's very good imo. Feels like a premium product.

 

[Strange]

If that ethos were true then Apple would be in big trouble

I'm not putting Apple and Nintendo build quality in the same league (and certainly not UI or useability!!) but they too put reliability, profit and build quality above raw performance, similar to Nintendo. They also don't chase specifications set by other manufactureres, sometimes to a fault. For better or worse.

I'll reserve judgment on whether it's the right decision this time, or whether it will pay off etc. I can understand why some think it will fail, and understand why some want it to fail. But I dont understand people saying it "should" fail.

Apple did pioneer some features (and still are) that other manufacturers don't put in you know?

Retina display was put out when nobody even dreamed of it

Take the new 15 inch macbook pro and the ridiculous resolution.
It's ridiculous alright, but is sure is eye candy.

 

[Kaotik]

Apple did pioneer some features (and still are) that other manufacturers don't put in you know?

Retina display was put out when nobody even dreamed of it

Take the new 15 inch macbook pro and the ridiculous resolution.
It's ridiculous alright, but is sure is eye candy.

Huh? Countless companies did devices with displays with high enough pixel density to be called "Retina displays" by Apple standards way before Apple introduced iPhone4 and Retina. (Yes, by Apples standards, 220 PPI is enough to be called Retina)

 

[pjbliverpool]

Retina display was put out when nobody even dreamed of it

No-one ever dreamed/imagined a slightly higher resolution phone screen?

 

[idsn6]

No-one ever dreamed/imagined a slightly higher resolution phone screen?

In the time leading up to the iPhone 4, I thought the rumors of Apple straight quadrupling the screen resolution (leapfrogging the resolution of every other phone on the market and attaining a PPI that was unsurpassed for years) were overly optimistic.

 

[Rangers]

I realise it seems like I'm bashing Apple. I'm not, I love 'em! I've just never bought an apple product because it's the most powerful in its genre, but because it works and because it's a quality product. Ive lost my original point somewhat!

I think it was that, like Nintendo, apple play to their own tune, value making a profit on their products, make reliable products and don't chase the bleeding edge. It was a none-point really, just thought it was worth pointing out in the context of the earlier posts.

Actually, and I've noted this key difference before when pointing out how both Apple and Nintendo are companies that tend to downplay specs, Apple puts amazingly great chipsets in their stuff. Apple downplays specs, then puts GPU's in their phones and tablets that blow away anything else out there at the time they release. Sort of walking softly but carrying a big stick. Sure, because Apple is on a yearly refresh schedule vs Androids wild west, they sometimes fall behind over that year, but they are always stunningly top line at time of release. Nintendo downplays specs, then puts garbage in.


It's the one thing I actually respect Apple for.

 

[SargonHamurabi]

I don't consider Apple as a company that downplays specs. They are always ready to advertise the resolution and the speed their phones can load things. Also, they are willing to make a phone that costs 600$ if that means being the most powerful on the market for a bit.

 

[Duck Dodgers]

Sure, because Apple is on a yearly refresh schedule vs Androids wild west, they sometimes fall behind over that year, but they are always stunningly top line at time of release. Nintendo downplays specs, then puts garbage in.
It's the one thing I actually respect Apple for.

You do realise there was a 4th generation iPad release recently with a doubling of shading performance released 7 months after the 3rd gen iPad don't you?
Forget the yearly refresh schedule, the competition is on for young an old right now.

 

[TheLump]

Actually, and I've noted this key difference before when pointing out how both Apple and Nintendo are companies that tend to downplay specs, Apple puts amazingly great chipsets in their stuff. Apple downplays specs, then puts GPU's in their phones and tablets that blow away anything else out there at the time they release. Sort of walking softly but carrying a big stick. Sure, because Apple is on a yearly refresh schedule vs Androids wild west, they sometimes fall behind over that year, but they are always stunningly top line at time of release. Nintendo downplays specs, then puts garbage in.


It's the one thing I actually respect Apple for.

I suppose with Apple, even if what they put in the iMac for example is not the best individual component available, the system as a whole works together beautifully. Theres no waste. Its never imbalanced for example. You can always make a more powerful PC than a Mac afaik, but you'll rarely make a PC as reliable or as user friendly. A lot of that comes down to their robust software though I suppose.

 

[babybumb]

When the iPad with Rogue hits.. maybe in the next 6 months it could kill console gaming companies