Console revisions discussion - understanding when and why hardware designs change.

iroboto

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The quantity of XSX at retail isn't equivalent to how many SOC's they produce.
Remember they are still building out xcloud and the blades are built on XSX chips.
Maybe they simply don't believe there's a benefit to respins and minor redisigns and updates, especially if it won't allow them to get many more XSX out there.
It’s an interesting question regardless. Either there are no additional savings to be found in the console, therefore already efficient as possible (unlikely imo). Or they are bound to xcloud and cannot revise the chips (possible?) as they are linked to specific blade specifications.

Any other ideas welcome. I am curious to know the answer.

If it is the prior the only revision would be a slim model I suppose, and that would require a node change.
 
What were revisions on other XB's like? I know 360 had a few but I don't recall XBOne's and the internet isn't helpful (doesn't help that Xbox One shows OXB), implying none. OXB had a few minor adjustments but no megashrinks. But in short, it seems MS has avoided revisions other than for 360.
 
What were revisions on other XB's like?
I really expect that I'm wrong but I don't remember any revisions last gen for X1. Apart from 1S and that's a major revision.
Or they are bound to xcloud and cannot revise the chips (possible?) as they are linked to specific blade specifications.
I was more pointing out the fact that they may actually be producing same amount of chips as PS5 but a chunk isn't making it into consoles.

If they don't think there are big enough savings or benefits, they may not want to have the team working on it instead of a mid gen refresh etc.
 
I really expect that I'm wrong but I don't remember any revisions last gen for X1. Apart from 1S and that's a major revision.
There were four versions of the Xbox One.
-Xbox One Launch
-Xbox One Elite
-Xbox One S
-Xbox One S All Digital Edition

The tech inside S and All Digital are identical, except for some different labeling on the RAM (probably just production variants over time). They realized cost savings from dropping the disc drive. Although they incurred added cost because they redesigned the case. A tiny change, to be sure, but even that would require a modification to the production line. I'm sure the balanced worked in their favor on that.
The Xbox One Elite included a hybrid hard drive. I can find no pictures of the motherboard. I doubt it's any different beyond the storage, but I can't state it as an absolute.
 
My reference is PS5: it did 3 minor revisions where it progressively changed and cheapened the heatsink, and the last where it moved the soc to 6nm node. None of these revisions were announced or documented in any official way, so is possible that Microsoft did the same with Xbox One and sites like wikipedia simply don't register it?
 
How is possible that PS5 is already at its third or fourth hardware revision to reduce cost and now it's more available, and the Series X is the same from launch and still completely unfindable even online?
This seems to be Sony's approach with many new high volume products. They do a run of x volume, assess Q&A/cost, revise and repeat. There were five generations of PS3, with the third generation PS3 appearing just two years after initial launch, and about eight distinct revisions of the PS2.

Given the array of hardware that Sony sell, this is probably just part of their manufacturing deal.
 
Just a curiosity.
How is possible that PS5 is already at its third or fourth hardware revision to reduce cost and now it's more available, and the Series X is the same from launch and still completely unfindable even online?
Is an hardware revision / soc respin so expensive that's prohibitive if you aren't predicting to sell a ps-ton of it?
This is a Sony thing. There are no less that 13 revisions of the PS3 controller, for example. There are tons of revisions of the dual shock 4 as well, including minor changes like changing the position the ribbon cable plugs into from the charge port, changes to the internal shape of the PS button and it's corresponding silicon conductive pad. Shoulder buttons have sometimes minor, sometimes major changes. They are constantly re-engineering their stuff. There are a ton of revisions of all of their own home consoles as well.
My reference is PS5: it did 3 minor revisions where it progressively changed and cheapened the heatsink, and the last where it moved the soc to 6nm node.
They changed the power supply already as well.
 
There were four versions of the Xbox One.
-Xbox One Launch
-Xbox One Elite
-Xbox One S
-Xbox One S All Digital Edition
Yeah I would call half different skus more so than revisions.
So Xbox one & one s.
But guess maybe gets a bit grey.
 
There was chatter last year about revised SOCs for the Xbox Series consoles so they would be coming off different fabrication lines but I haven't seen any confirmation of that happening since then.
 
My reference is PS5: it did 3 minor revisions where it progressively changed and cheapened the heatsink, and the last where it moved the soc to 6nm node. None of these revisions were announced or documented in any official way, so is possible that Microsoft did the same with Xbox One and sites like wikipedia simply don't register it?
I'm pretty sure that Sony had far bigger pressure to decrease the heat with a 6nm SOC than MS had with the XSX. It surely wouldn't help MS to do so to increase production. IMHO a waste to do incremental steps for MS until there is a real monetary and production benefit for an old product which I can't see at the moment with the rising price level of 5nm and beyond.
 
This is a Sony thing. There are no less that 13 revisions of the PS3 controller, for example. There are tons of revisions of the dual shock 4 as well, including minor changes like changing the position the ribbon cable plugs into from the charge port, changes to the internal shape of the PS button and it's corresponding silicon conductive pad. Shoulder buttons have sometimes minor, sometimes major changes. They are constantly re-engineering their stuff. There are a ton of revisions of all of their own home consoles as well.

They changed the power supply already as well.
nintendo too IIRC. albeit less often than sony.

sony with PS2 is like the king of minor revisions.
 
I'd hazard a guess that it simply doesn't make economic sense yet. ie. the cost of the new process is not significantly greater than then smaller die size?
Perhaps a 6nm XSX, doesn't really allow them to shrink the heatsink and other components the same way SONY has in the PS5.

Everything seems pretty well matched in the XSX, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a 6nm XSS first, and then maybe a much smaller 5 or 4nm XSX later on, when it makes $$ sense.
 
I'd hazard a guess that it simply doesn't make economic sense yet.
Why not though, versus PS5? And PS in general? Is Sony overspending on making revisions, or is MS missing out on cost-cuttings, and if so, why are they okay with that? Or is the manufacturing pipeline so different for the two of them that for Sony, revisions make sense, but not for MS?

What does Nintendo do?
 
MS and Sony might be (or have been) facing different situations and so the economics between fixed vs. ongoing costs would be different.

For example Sony it has been reported that Sony was facing supply side challenges, since the PS5 appears to have been more supply bottlenecked in terms of the sales there may have just been greater emphasis on getting more units out there compared to just the direct cost/benefits. There were also reports that yields possibly on their APU was not ideal, which would also change the cost/benefit analysis of another tape out/stepping. As such a combination of factors might make more sense for Sony to pay fixed costs to improve more unit cost/efficiency/etc.

At least also in terms of just console units the PS5 is likely to greatly outpace the XSX over the long term, but it's not clear what the overall volume might look like due to the other uses for the respective APUs. Higher volume would be able to absorb higher fixed costs that benefit per unit costs.

There's also just timing to consider as another factor. The demand/supply situation has completely shifted over the last 6 months or so. The cost/benefit again of a new revision could be completely different now with reports that suppliers (including 7nm fab space) are under pressure from order cuts. A time difference of a few quarters when looking at a cost/benefit analysis could likely yield very different conclusions and plans.
 
Why not though, versus PS5? And PS in general? Is Sony overspending on making revisions, or is MS missing out on cost-cuttings, and if so, why are they okay with that?
I suspect the main purpose of revisions is to reduce defect rates. Then there is cost savings following.
We saw a lot of revisions for 360 because of RROD. It wasn’t until Jasper revision did the RROD stop happening. I don’t know how much they actually saved up to then. I honestly don’t think any, cost savings were likely not until slim.

And typically cost savings are absorbed by increasing the size of the hard drive and there may be no appetite by consumers to pay more, and not appetite by MS to lose more per console.

So outside of standard chip revisions for improving yield it sort of makes sense that there aren’t any revisions until a slim model comes.

They have an answer for compromised chips; xcloud. There seems to be some possibilities as to why they aren’t interested in revising. And it may just be Occam’s razor here: The payoff may just not be worth it. Whereas Sony selling 2x Xbox, the payoff is likely worth it.
 
Why not though, versus PS5? And PS in general? Is Sony overspending on making revisions, or is MS missing out on cost-cuttings, and if so, why are they okay with that? Or is the manufacturing pipeline so different for the two of them that for Sony, revisions make sense, but not for MS?

What does Nintendo do?
This has always been the Sony way. Even with PS1 there were a bunch of revisions, although many of the changes were internal and didn't alter the look of the console until the PSone. But while Saturn and PS1 were both on the market, off the top of my head, you had 2 versions of Saturn (model 1 and 2) and at least 3 versions of PS1. Launch PS1s had the AV jacks on the back, then they removed them and went with just the multi AV out. And then the Dual Shock system that came bundled with the controller. There were hardware changes inside (IIRC it used a different laser for the disc drive as well), but the firmware also changed with different CD player software that added visualizations. Technically they both had 3 versions of controllers, but that's only because Sega had a different controller for the NA market vs Japan, and then included the Japanese style controller with model 2, and then the 3d controller. Sony had the original controller, the analog controller, and the dual shock controller. There are revisions to the dual shock but I don't know if they came out before Saturn exited the market.

64 hardware never had a hardware revision to my knowledge. But some N64 use silver screws inside where there are copper colored ones in others. I don't think that counts.

Sony just reinvents it's hardware at a faster rate than anyone else.
 
I suspect the main purpose of revisions is to reduce defect rates. Then there is cost savings following.
We saw a lot of revisions for 360 because of RROD. It wasn’t until Jasper revision did the RROD stop happening. I don’t know how much they actually saved up to then. I honestly don’t think any, cost savings were likely not until slim.

And typically cost savings are absorbed by increasing the size of the hard drive and there may be no appetite by consumers to pay more, and not appetite by MS to lose more per console.

So outside of standard chip revisions for improving yield it sort of makes sense that there aren’t any revisions until a slim model comes.

They have an answer for compromised chips; xcloud. There seems to be some possibilities as to why they aren’t interested in revising. And it may just be Occam’s razor here: The payoff may just not be worth it. Whereas Sony selling 2x Xbox, the payoff is likely worth it.


Rapid revisions when design defects were found made sense. It also happened on ps2 slim DVD drive.

The DVD drive got multiple revisions in quick succession because various defective designs (one of the funniest one is when Sony forgot to place current limiter to the lens and it can literally melt itself)
 
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