Nintendo Switch Event 2017-01-12 and Switch Launch discussion

[Cyan]

I am not Indonesian. Neither have I ever been to Indonesia. However, I will sometimes eat pizza with a knife and fork, and other times just with my hands. I also have had pizza with wedges.

I truly am a New Renaissance Man, embracing all the world's cultures and idiosyncrasies to enjoy the rich tapestry that life has to offer.

You are very certainly like me, I am very vintage, and like retrogames and classic cars.

Talking of games, Switch's version of Skyrim is Skyrim SE or the old title? It looks like SE to me, but not 100% sure.

One of my favourite Switch games of the conference:

And some highlights gifs from the conference:

 

[Exophase]

All products are the result of compromises. Designing a product means picking the compromises that work for your intended market. You are obviously not Nintendo's intended market. This thing appeals to me given my gaming habits, it actually looks like Nintendo designed it just for me but I wouldn't have thought that people like me (middle-aged, lots of disposable income but very little free time, likes games but they have to fit in around my life) is a mass market. Maybe I am!

Travelling on trains, other transport or in the car? I reckon I could strap the screen to the back of a car seat for kids easily enough.

A traditional portable would be fine for travelling on trains, cars, planes, etc. The use case for the Switch model is getting multiple people together in these situations and I don't see it being much of a thing, especially since it largely eschews private listening via headphones (unless you bust out Y adapters for that) Yeah maybe if you have multiple kids in the back of a car it could be a thing but I'm really skeptical that that'll be a huge driver. There are kits to do that with other consoles and I'm not aware that they've ever taken off in any real capacity.

By that measure, Microsoft selling the Elite controller is an admission the standard One controlled is lacking, which is nonsense. The Switch's controller combinations looks fine to me but I can see why allowing people to buy a controller more in the style of exiting controllers make business sense. Some people who want a controller in the same mould as their existing controller.

I didn't really put it in the best of terms, but I see it like this. MS's Elite controller offers customization and quality that goes beyond what normal controllers have. Nintendo's controller, on the other hand, is about as bog standard as you get and is the level offered by every other non-Nintendo consoles for years.

Nintendo is again offering something that appears unique and different, but is simultaneously saying that if you want you can also go ahead and use a controller that's about as pedestrian as you get. There might be a game or two that you can't use with the Pro controller (1, 2 Switch maybe? I'm not sure) but this doesn't look like it'll be the standard.

Now granted, Nintendo has been doing this since the Wii, and the standard controls on the Switch look a lot better for traditional gaming than the standard controls on the Wii. So in that regard things aren't that bad. But at the same time, the standard controls on Switch are also not really offering nearly as much in the way of unique new control methods as the previous two consoles have.

1, 2 Switch is the main new concept and it seems like a game people could just play with their phones. I fully expect to see knock offs doing just that now that the idea is out there. We'll see if it can hold up as an enduring avenue for new titles on the Switch.

 

[Exophase]

Does anyone know if existing third party USB-C breakout/hub cables will work in lieu of the Nintendo dock? It's easy to find parts that offer more connections than the Nintendo dock for less than $90.

 

[Ryan Smith]

Because the dock has nothing in it and costs nintendo about as much to make as a charging cable that they would have to include to the portable version anyways.

The Dock has, at a minimum, a DisplayPort to HDMI converter, a USB-C device controller, and almost certainly some additional power management ICs. In terms of functionality it's basically Apple's USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter in a different form factor.

It's not chock-full of electronics, but it's not a dumb device either.

 

[Exophase]

The Dock has, at a minimum, a DisplayPort to HDMI converter, a USB-C device controller, and almost certainly some additional power management ICs. In terms of functionality it's basically Apple's USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter in a different form factor.

It's not chock-full of electronics, but it's not a dumb device either.

I'm not sure it needs any of that.

Here is USB-C in alternate mode:

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/HDMIAltModeUSBTypeC.aspx

There are suitable pins to provide HDMI, one USB connection and power with a passive cable.

Apparently there are also two USB 2.0 ports (not visible on the pictures I've seen), but that can be delivered with a simple hub chipset that's been ubiquitous for decades and very cheap. Nothing USB-C specific is necessary.

I don't see why it'd need more power management either, today there are Core-i7 laptops that power/charge from a standard USB charger and I doubt the Switch uses even that much power. The AC adapter will of course need circuitry for regulation to what's probably a 5V output, but that's also really cheap.

It's also not confirmed yet (AFAIK), but I don't see why it'd need any kind of active cooling either.

 

[Esrever]

The Dock has, at a minimum, a DisplayPort to HDMI converter, a USB-C device controller, and almost certainly some additional power management ICs. In terms of functionality it's basically Apple's USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter in a different form factor.

It's not chock-full of electronics, but it's not a dumb device either.

It's a $2 piece of plastic instead of a $0.05 cord as part of a $299 device. It's half a percent of difference in pricing.

 

[Ryan Smith]

I'm not sure it needs any of that.

Here is USB-C in alternate mode:

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/HDMIAltModeUSBTypeC.aspx

There are suitable pins to provide HDMI, one USB connection and power with a passive cable.

Apparently there are also two USB 2.0 ports (not visible on the pictures I've seen), but that can be delivered with a simple hub chipset that's been ubiquitous for decades and very cheap. Nothing USB-C specific is necessary.

I don't see why it'd need more power management either, today there are Core-i7 laptops that power/charge from a standard USB charger and I doubt the Switch uses even that much power. The AC adapter will of course need circuitry for regulation to what's probably a 5V output, but that's also really cheap.

HDMI Alt Mode requires all 4 high speed pairs off of a USB-C connector. The dock includes a USB 3.0 port, so 2 of the pairs are tied up providing that. Ergo it has to do DP to HDMI conversion instead. (I also haven't seen a suitable device chip yet for HDMI Alt Mode, though those are due soon).

Edit: And the power management ICs would be for the dock, not for the tablet. USB-C active docks require a bit extra circuitry to manage power distribution since power can flow either way

 

[Exophase]

HDMI Alt Mode requires all 4 high speed pairs off of a USB-C connector. The dock includes a USB 3.0 port, so 2 of the pairs are tied up providing that. Ergo it has to do DP to HDMI conversion instead. (I also haven't seen a suitable device chip yet for HDMI Alt Mode, though those are due soon).

Edit: And the power management ICs would be for the dock, not for the tablet. USB-C active docks require a bit extra circuitry to manage power distribution since power can flow either way

I stand corrected, it looks like they need something like a DP to HDMI converter. But I can find cables for sale for under $10, so I imagine the suitable chip isn't more than a few dollars at most.

You mentioned Apple's digital multiport AV adapter and even that's only $49 straight from Apple (http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJ1K2AM/A/usb-c-digital-av-multiport-adapter) and they're known to charge premium prices as well.

 

[Malo]

$49 from Apple means it probably cost $3 to make and license.

 

[eastmen]

this thing is really small

 

[Rootax]

The joycons are way to smalls imo. And I don't have "big" hands.

 

[BRiT]

The joycons are way to smalls imo. And I don't have "big" hands.

It's like they took the hand size from Trump and then made them even smaller.

 

[Exophase]

The joycons are way to smalls imo. And I don't have "big" hands.

I have particularly small hands and I personally can't stand small gamepads. I found GPH's GP2X Wiz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2X_Wiz) almost unusable and I imagine the GBA SP would have been about as bad. The single-ended JoyCons look really uncomfortable to me.

That said, while most small handhelds (and some not so small ones) suffer from having inputs that are too close to the edge of the device, these have the exact opposite problem. The face buttons on the L JoyCon and the analog stick on the R JoyCon are really far in from the edge of the controller, I want to say substantially more than any controller I've ever used. So I'm worried my hands will cramp from holding this and one of my thumbs will barely reach, which is especially bad in the case of the analog stick since it protrudes and requires more travel.

Then there's the shoulder buttons that are so badly placed that Nintendo had to include another chunk of plastic just to slide on top of them. Another thing that you'll have to keep sitting around and ready to slide in when you take the things out, which is really unfortunate if you were actually planning on taking this thing with you and busting it out for random other people to use in public places.

Then you put the two together and you get a controller with a d-pad that's really four buttons. I have never used a controller with a d-pad like this that wasn't awful. I know, d-pads aren't so important these days, but I personally prefer them for just about all the 2D games I play, which is most of my library.

I still think this whole concepted that resulted in two really bad controllers or one very overpriced and meh controller with two of too many things was not a good tradeoff. Selling the competent Pro controller at a reasonable price was seriously the very least they could have done, but no, can't have that either.

 

[orangpelupa]

The joycons are way to smalls imo. And I don't have "big" hands.

This is Nintendo tho. I believe they will still provide good enough comfort.

But this is also the Nintendo that made 3DS with annoying sharp edges...

Ugh...

 

[Ryan Smith]

$49 from Apple means it probably cost $3 to make and license.

I haven't seen a comparable adapter (HDMI + USB 3.0) for less than $45. Apple's is actually among the cheapest. Not that I disagree that there's likely some significant markup here, but after licensing and such I would be shocked if the BoM wasn't somewhere in the double digits (HDMI seems to add a lot to the cost of any of these adapters).

 

[orangpelupa]

I haven't seen a comparable adapter (HDMI + USB 3.0) for less than $45. Apple's is actually among the cheapest. Not that I disagree that there's likely some significant markup here, but after licensing and such I would be shocked if the BoM wasn't somewhere in the double digits (HDMI seems to add a lot to the cost of any of these adapters).

But is it really usb plus hdmi?

Maybe the docking is only a dumb extender.

Dumbly extend the hdmi from switch proprietary CONNECTOR TO NORMAL HDMI. (sorry it became all caps, my soft key is weird)

A bit smartly extend one usb C to 3 USB A ports HUB.

 

[Ryan Smith]

But is it really usb plus hdmi?

Maybe the docking is only a dumb extender.

Dumbly extend the hdmi from switch proprietary CONNECTOR TO NORMAL HDMI. (sorry it became all caps, my soft key is weird)

A bit smartly extend one usb C to 3 USB A ports HUB.

The Switch uses USB Type-C, not a proprietary connector. And even if you ignore alt mode standards and reassign pins willy-nilly, there is literally not enough pins in a 24-pin USB-C connector for HDMI + USB 3.0 + power (and I'm being generous leaving out USB 2.0).

 

[ultragpu]

How powerful is this again in flops? If they can't even run Zelda in 1080p in docked mode then why bother with that mode at all? Could have saved the R&D and focus solely on the handheld mode, then release a true next gen Wii Pro/Ultra/Xtreme for the living room only.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How powerful is this again in flops? If they can't even run Zelda in 1080p in docked mode then why bother with that mode at all?

Because Nintendo believe and are gambling on this USP being a major attraction for their devices. In essence it's the primary reason to buy one.

 

[Rootax]

I would be ok with 720p even when docked if the picture quality was good. But the texture filtering is horrible, lot of jaggies, lots of popping... Don't get me wrong, the game look good because of the art, but it's a waste with this picture quality (same goes for Mario, Splatoon, MK8,etc). Maybe on the go on the "small screen" it will look better... They basically made a portable WiiU... In a way, I hope the switch bomb so much, Nintendo goes third party, and we could at last play Big N games on modern hardware. I guess a lot of Nintendo devs would like working in a 201X environnement, and not get stuck in 2005...