Nintendo 3DS business/general talk *spin-off feat. 3DS as a P.I. in New Orleans

Entropy

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Mod note:
This thread was created with the 3DS related posts in the NGP thread.

If the base model starts at $249-299 range then Sony will be fine. Any higher and Sony could push the product out of average consumers' minds, by the time there's a price cut for NGP people will have already moved on to the 3DS and the iPod Touch for mobile gaming.
I'm not sure targeting "average consumers" makes sense anyway.
Witness how even the Nintendo 3DS doubles prices, halves battery life, adds 3D and performance - none of this does anything for Brain Trainers, puzzle gamers or similar users. The 3DS doesn't target as wide an audience as its predecessor - and that makes sense, given the development the cell phones.

The Sony NGP does the same, and should do so. It should try to claim a niche, because not doing so will leave it without any justification at all. It doesn't have a gimmick like the 3DS, nor does it have a unique architecture, or second screen that ensures exclusive (not necessarily better) content. As far as I can see the one clear differentiator of the NGP vs. phones is the physical control options. And you would have to be pretty damn dedicated to justify not only the purchase based on that feature, but also the additional hassle of carrying another portable gadget, and a pretty bulky one at that.

Because that is really the crux of the matter - the dedicated handheld gaming devices may be obsolete not as gadgets in and of themselves, but as concept, just as handheld computers are. What they offer may not be unique enough to sustain general consumer interest. Once the die-hards have done their initial buying rush - what will then sustain volume sales?
 
I'm not sure targeting "average consumers" makes sense anyway.
Witness how even the Nintendo 3DS doubles prices, halves battery life, adds 3D and performance - none of this does anything for Brain Trainers, puzzle gamers or similar users. The 3DS doesn't target as wide an audience as its predecessor - and that makes sense, given the development the cell phones.

The Sony NGP does the same, and should do so. It should try to claim a niche, because not doing so will leave it without any justification at all. It doesn't have a gimmick like the 3DS, nor does it have a unique architecture, or second screen that ensures exclusive (not necessarily better) content. As far as I can see the one clear differentiator of the NGP vs. phones is the physical control options. And you would have to be pretty damn dedicated to justify not only the purchase based on that feature, but also the additional hassle of carrying another portable gadget, and a pretty bulky one at that.

Because that is really the crux of the matter - the dedicated handheld gaming devices may be obsolete not as gadgets in and of themselves, but as concept, just as handheld computers are. What they offer may not be unique enough to sustain general consumer interest. Once the die-hards have done their initial buying rush - what will then sustain volume sales?
While smartphones are definitely growing as a platform, they're still relatively expensive to the average consumer. You got the initial price and monthly plans which stops it's market share from rapidly expanding, so there's still a large segment of people who haven't purchased one. There's still a market for multimedia devices without phone or constant network functionality, the iPod Touch and emerging tablet market shows that.

The 3DS price is expensive, but Nintendo is going to cut it's price in the near future once they're capable of manufacturing it fast enough and demand dies down a bit. Sony needs to keep the price close to the 3DS to make sure it can capitalize on enough sales even with 3DS already out first. Volume sales have to be at a reasonable level in regards to the competition, which the 3DS is. It may have a few months on it, but pricing the NGP at a reasonable amount insures it's sales won't be too far behind.
 
While smartphones are definitely growing as a platform, they're still relatively expensive to the average consumer. You got the initial price and monthly plans which stops it's market share from rapidly expanding, so there's still a large segment of people who haven't purchased one. There's still a market for multimedia devices without phone or constant network functionality, the iPod Touch and emerging tablet market shows that.

The 3DS price is expensive, but Nintendo is going to cut it's price in the near future once they're capable of manufacturing it fast enough and demand dies down a bit. Sony needs to keep the price close to the 3DS to make sure it can capitalize on enough sales even with 3DS already out first. Volume sales have to be at a reasonable level in regards to the competition, which the 3DS is. It may have a few months on it, but pricing the NGP at a reasonable amount insures it's sales won't be too far behind.

Hmm. I'll comment further down.
This thread is supposedly about the business side of Sonys new handheld games console, and if so there are quite a few questions that seems appropriate to discuss, such as
Q1. How will the new console do in the marketplace vs. the old?
Q2. How will it do in the marketplace vs. the only other dedicated handheld console, the 3DS?
Q3. What is, or should be, the target demographic of the NGP?
Q4. What might be a likely price for the new device, all things considered?
Q5. Is it likely to be a profitable device, as a whole, for Sony?

I'm convinced that the rise of the multimedia phones profoundly changes the market conditions for handheld gaming consoles. Putting actual numbers to that is difficult though, and you are certainly right that there is a market for devices that aren't constantly connected. Furthermore, I'd say that there is a hard-core market of affluent gamers that is likely to buy the NGP simply because it is a device that interests them. However, the other side of that coin is that it is pretty much undeniable that the smartphone market to a large extent is a superset of the NGP market, and that by the time the NGP comes to market, it needs to justify its purchase as an additional portable device over potentially both a smartphone, and among the hard-core handheld gaming fans, the 3DS. I have yet to see any argument put forth that would motivate actual growth beyond what the PSP has achieved. So my take is
A1. The NGP will see a smaller market than the PSP. How much smaller?

How will it do vs. the 3DS? Well, with the 3DS, Nintendo has targeted a tighter demographic than with the DS, the exception being that novelty seekers may be attracted to the 3D-screen, giving some additional sales. Nintendo seems to aim for a very closed garden type of eco-system. They have the only 3D-screen, they are the only ones with dual screens, they have a unique internal hardware architecture. It is unlikely that it will have much in the way of multi platform games. For better or worse, this means that it will offer something unique in the gaming landscape, not only at launch but for the foreseeable future. (If it's something "better" is another question entirely.) I'd say that this is likely to help Nintendo keep interest going for their platform, beyond the initial enthusiast purchases. Also, in relation to the NGP, launching significantly ahead is an advantage, as I doubt the NGP and the 3DS address completely distinct markets.
A2. Over the lifetime of the console, the 3DS is likely to sell in greater numbers. (Weaker conclusion than A1)

Since a lot of people will have difficulty justifying an additional handheld gaming device, and the 3DS is launching ahead, I don't think targeting casual gamers or pushing the multimedia qualities of the NGP makes sense. Let's face it, those categories already have their needs well covered. So Sony has little choice other than ensure that they get the attention and dollars of the hard-core. That category is also likely to buy more games anyway, yielding higher net revenue per NGP sold. And this is what Sony seems to do, revealing a very ambitious internal processor, 3G and WiFi, the biggest and highest resolution handheld OLED screen yet, double capacitive touch panels, and real joysticks and other physical controls.
A3. Sony should to target the hard-core gamer demographic.

This decision also means that the console will be costly to produce. Not only does it offer everything a smartphone does in terms of hardware, it offers more. On top of that, Sony won't just slap Android on the NGP, it will offer its own software environment/applications/development tools et cetera. So compared to the smartphones, it also carries large additional software costs for Sony. The NGP will cost more than the high-end smartphones to produce. But it also has a different business model, where game sales generate additional revenue for Sony. The price of the device + the licensing revenue must generate profit. Pricing of smartphones in countries where there they sell like any other consumer electronics device imply that if it hadn't had licensing to sustain it, it would have needed to sell at over €700, (that's a mere €100 up from its much lower specced SE phone sibling.) So how much licensing revenue can they expect from an NGP? Lets be optimistic, and call it €200 (actually, I think this is too high, on the other hand they may have better margins on their own games). That would leave us at €500. Of course, they will get better longevity out of the NGP than a phone, so there is likely to be cost reductions in production over time. So lets assume they lower the initial price against the hope of sustained sales at lower production costs later in the product life cycle. Note that this implies that it won't have much room for price reductions later on. I'd say that an initial price of €400 is fairly likely, possibly including a first party game, so
A4. €399 or $400 MSRP at launch. (A lot for a game console, cheap for a small tablet with excellent gaming capabilities.)

So will this make money for Sony? Damned if I know. It seems like a risky gamble to me, then again Sonys business model is to develop and bring new technology to the market and try to make it mass market enough to recoup costs and more, so this kind of gamble is their modus operandi. As long as they win more often than not, they're ok. Will the NGP loose too many customers to competing platforms? Will the multiplatform possibilities of the NGP play out to their advantage yielding a lot of titles for the platform even later in its lifetime, or will it make the NGP seem like an increasingly pointless device vs. other platforms running the same titles?
A5. I really can't say. I don't think Sony can either.

That's my brain dump as far as NGP "business" is concerned. It's too long. Sorry. Think I'll shut up now that I've had my say.
 
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After hands on with 3DS, I think Sony is sending NGP straight to the grave. The graphic differential just isn't enough this time around. Without 3D gimmicks, it has one less feature when people are deciding. On top of that NGP is launching way later, several months head start for 3DS, is not favourable to Sony. Nintendo might also releases new revision of 3DS by the time NGP launched. So NGP is most likely DOA, even if Sony added a 3D screen and change the PVR to MP8+ to support it. Shame really it looks like a device that I'll like.

As far as 3DS, it has everything going for it, except the price, but I am sure there'll be price drop once supply exceeds demand. 3DS is a really nice little device, just too small for me. The clamp shell design make it more robust to carry around IMO. The 3D, looks great, I can't sustain the 3D effect for long, but for the brief period I managed to see it properly it looks solid, playing SSFIV in 3D make the character looks solid instead of looking like sprites. Analog felt alot like PSP nub, d-pad is flimsy as ever and buttons are too small. It begs for XL models, or even better desktop model.
 
As far as 3DS, it has everything going for it:
- except the price
- just too small for me
- I can't sustain the 3D effect for long, but for the brief period I managed to see it properly ...
- Analog felt alot like PSP nub
- d-pad is flimsy as ever
- buttons are too small. It begs for XL models, or even better desktop model.

Couldn't help myself, you were asking for it.

The graphic differential just isn't enough this time around.

Still a generation between them. I don't know that the 3DS having 3D is enough, particularly since there are other issues with it too, like using the 2D screen and 3D screen together being a pain, and the controls this time generously in favor of the NGP, where previously the DS had a big, important win over the PSP in this area.

I'm pretty sure we'll see both devices do more than well enough.
 
Couldn't help myself, you were asking for it.



Still a generation between them. I don't know that the 3DS having 3D is enough, particularly since there are other issues with it too, like using the 2D screen and 3D screen together being a pain, and the controls this time generously in favor of the NGP, where previously the DS had a big, important win over the PSP in this area.

I'm pretty sure we'll see both devices do more than well enough.

Is it a generation or is it half of a generation ?

Developers have already said the ngp can do things the ps2/xbox and even the wii can't and from my understanding of reading diffrent sources the ngp doesn't quite live up to ps3 graphics quality.

So the gap might be smaller than a console generation , further add to it the diffrences in resolution and i think we are looking at less than a generation leap
 
eastmen said:
Is it a generation or is it half of a generation ?

Developers have already said the ngp can do things the ps2/xbox and even the wii can't and from my understanding of reading diffrent sources the ngp doesn't quite live up to ps3 graphics quality.

So the gap might be smaller than a console generation , further add to it the diffrences in resolution and i think we are looking at less than a generation leap

The Conduit developer already stated that the 3DS also can't quite handle Wii level of graphics either. That both systems can also do a few things slightly better than Wii/PS3 doesn't matter too much, imho.
 
guess we will have to wait for both to come out to see what the diffrence is.

Or more correctly, to wait for the NGP to come out. ;) 3DS is out in Japan, and out in Europe today (and US? not sure, but it's in stores here now and I look forward to at least seeing it in action in an in-store demostation soon).
 
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Or more correctly, to wait for the NGP to come out. ;) Wii is out in Japan, and out in Europe today (and US? not sure, but it's in stores here now and I look forward to at least seeing it in action in an in-store demostation soon).

You sure about that? ;)
 
Or more correctly, to wait for the NGP to come out. ;) 3DS is out in Japan, and out in Europe today (and US? not sure, but it's in stores here now and I look forward to at least seeing it in action in an in-store demostation soon).
The 3DS did indeed launch today in the EU, the same day as the iPad2.
The contrast was stark, with 100+ lines for the iPad2, and no lines whatsoever for the 3DS. Which was handy for me, because I could go to three different shops this afternoon, and they all had 3DSs around to show off and sell.
I was curious about the 3D effect, and came away with a quite positive impression. Being used to an iPhone4, I was afraid that I would find a mere 240 pixels where the iPhone has 640 awful, but while obvious, it wasn't as much of a problem in moving graphics as I had feared, at least from a first impression. The image gained clarity when 3D was disabled, but I would probably use 3D all the time anyway, because, well, it adds a whole dimension :). And it actually does impact gameplay to some extent, because it does make depth a whole lot easier to judge, which made a positive difference in control.

But a blockbuster launch it was not. At least around here.
 
Couldn't help myself, you were asking for it.

Well thank you :)


Still a generation between them. I don't know that the 3DS having 3D is enough, particularly since there are other issues with it too, like using the 2D screen and 3D screen together being a pain, and the controls this time generously in favor of the NGP, where previously the DS had a big, important win over the PSP in this area.

I'm pretty sure we'll see both devices do more than well enough.

3DS graphic is sufficient enough that even a generation gap in hardware won't give the NGP a competitive advantage in that area. 3D may turn out like the touch screen of last generation. If Sony don't addressed it this time and let Nintendo runs with it again, it'll be quite funny.
 
3DS graphic is sufficient enough that even a generation gap in hardware won't give the NGP a competitive advantage in that area.
With the way some people scrutinise differences between same generation consoles like 360 and PS3, it's pretty clear that better graphics give some competitive advantage, even if it's a minority that cares.
 
With the way some people scrutinise differences between same generation consoles like 360 and PS3, it's pretty clear that better graphics give some competitive advantage, even if it's a minority that cares.
The difficulty lies in quantifying just how large a competitive advantage it really is.
How many would have chosen another MMO over WoW unless Blizzard had decided to now offer depth based sunshafts with improved sampling to reduce aliasing? Ridiculous as the example is, to some extent, that is the question you have to ask yourself. Is it worth spending development time, QA and support on graphical features unless they truly give a competitive advantage? Graphics has been a sales driver for a long time so taking the next step is regarded as natural. But how many truly care anymore as we progress? It's understandable that the concept of "good enough" can be disturbing, even threatening for people in the industry, be it development or retail, software or hardware. But I don't think we can ignore the need to do some rather critical cost/benefit analysis going forward, and I doubt we'll see progress at the rate we have in the past. I doubt it is even possible at a time when a four time increase in rendering power no longer gives you an increase in resolution from 320x240 to 640x480, but rather somewhat better shadow rendition.....
 
Well thank you :)




3DS graphic is sufficient enough that even a generation gap in hardware won't give the NGP a competitive advantage in that area. 3D may turn out like the touch screen of last generation. If Sony don't addressed it this time and let Nintendo runs with it again, it'll be quite funny.

they could always use head/eye tracking to fake 3d with the NGP or use the motion sensing
 
The 3DS did indeed launch today in the EU, the same day as the iPad2.
The contrast was stark, with 100+ lines for the iPad2, and no lines whatsoever for the 3DS. Which was handy for me, because I could go to three different shops this afternoon, and they all had 3DSs around to show off and sell.
I was curious about the 3D effect, and came away with a quite positive impression. Being used to an iPhone4, I was afraid that I would find a mere 240 pixels where the iPhone has 640 awful, but while obvious, it wasn't as much of a problem in moving graphics as I had feared, at least from a first impression. The image gained clarity when 3D was disabled, but I would probably use 3D all the time anyway, because, well, it adds a whole dimension :). And it actually does impact gameplay to some extent, because it does make depth a whole lot easier to judge, which made a positive difference in control.

But a blockbuster launch it was not. At least around here.

Same here. 130 people queued for 65 iPad 2s, no buzz for the 3DS. When I got there today iPad 2s were being tested all the time, while the one 3DS that was on (rolling demo, couldn't be touched) was completely ignored by everyone but me.

I came away with a much more negative impression. The 3D works flawlessly, but the image quality is lame, and the graphics are definitely sub-Wii. For me, the 3D accentuates the lack of detail even more, and the screen really is very small. If the NGP is going to get a screen anywhere like the iPad 2's screen, then the difference is going to be blinding. But I bet that we'll get a 3DS Lite with a much better screen within 2 years. ;)

For now though, the 3DS dropped of my radar in a major way. They sacrificed too much for DS backward compatibility imho. A back pressure sensitive touch-screen like on NGP would have been way nicer in combination with the 3D I think. Thinks are looking pretty good for NGP at this point imho, because I now doubt that 3D is going to make up for the difference in picture quality both in terms of 3D graphical detail and in terms of screen resolution and contrast levels, while the NGP wins in terms of controls in a big way too.

A good illustration for me was looking up from the 3DS pilotwings demo and seeing the latest Ratchet & Clank running on the PS3 a little ahead. It just looked so much better - so much more visual information and clarity, it was almost night and day. Again though I bet the 3DS will see a redesign featuring a much better screen within 2 years.
 
Same here. 130 people queued for 65 iPad 2s, no buzz for the 3DS. When I got there today iPad 2s were being tested all the time, while the one 3DS that was on (rolling demo, couldn't be touched) was completely ignored by everyone but me.

I came away with a much more negative impression. The 3D works flawlessly, but the image quality is lame, and the graphics are definitely sub-Wii. For me, the 3D accentuates the lack of detail even more, and the screen really is very small. If the NGP is going to get a screen anywhere like the iPad 2's screen, then the difference is going to be blinding. But I bet that we'll get a 3DS Lite with a much better screen within 2 years. ;)

For now though, the 3DS dropped of my radar in a major way. They sacrificed too much for DS backward compatibility imho. A back pressure sensitive touch-screen like on NGP would have been way nicer in combination with the 3D I think. Thinks are looking pretty good for NGP at this point imho, because I now doubt that 3D is going to make up for the difference in picture quality both in terms of 3D graphical detail and in terms of screen resolution and contrast levels, while the NGP wins in terms of controls in a big way too.

A good illustration for me was looking up from the 3DS pilotwings demo and seeing the latest Ratchet & Clank running on the PS3 a little ahead. It just looked so much better - so much more visual information and clarity, it was almost night and day. Again though I bet the 3DS will see a redesign featuring a much better screen within 2 years.

Agreed that the 3DS will be updated with an improved screen. Or at least larger, they certainly left room for it in their design, their current screen looks positively tiny with all that unused real estate around it, an odd design decision when convenient portability is the central idea. Although, if they go larger, the low resolution of the screen will become more obvious, so it would be a bit of a dual edged sword.

Perhaps they did sacrifice too much for DS compatibility. On the other hand, it allows them to leverage their huge back catalog, and along with offering a unique gimmick, substantial hardware improvements, and of course their proprietrary franchises, it's difficult to pin any obvious mistake on Nintendos handheld effort. We'll see how it plays out. As I've implied above for the NGP, maybe the issue is that the landscape around them has changed, rather than any particular weakness in their own execution. How good would a mini-disc player have to be to sell today?
 
Yeah I have the feeling the 3ds aint gonna be as big as the nintendo ds, not by a long shot.
We'll find out in a about 3 months I suppose.
the 3ds never had great gfx, I remember there was some solid snake game shown on this site, some ppl were saying it looked good, now if that was impressive gfx for the platform then ahem! then again it doesnt need decent gfx to succeed look at the wii
 
I think the entire dedicated games handheld market will shrink this time around. What nintendo did with the ds wont be replicated.

Nintendo expanded the market when they ventured outside of their core handheld audience(kids, tweens etc) with the ultra casual games.

Those ultra casuals are better served on mobile phones. Those games are simply cheaper and more portable since you always have to carry your phone anyway.

I actually think sony is better of this time. If the price is right. They offer something unique. True portable console gaming, for the first time ever. The dual analogue sticks are a huge deal.
 
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