Nextbox SKU with no optical drive - strictly download/cable box?

[Squilliam]

The inability to sell second-hand games would be a major point PRO the console in the eyes of the vendors, publishers and developers, so you shouldn't put it in the list of (mostly valid) reasons CON.

Microsoft could make it cheaper, considering higher than normal royalties and the lack of a resale market as well as the lower costs of not including optical media drives with the system.

Low price : Nextbox online : $249
Mid price : Next box pro : $349
High point: Next box elite: $449 - as above but larger HDD and extra connections/features/controllers/whatever.

Microsoft wants to drive traffic through XBLA/NNA/Movies/Demos/Full games. What better way than to do so than with a console that comes standard without an optical drive, relying on the internet for its' content?

TV on demand will probably be a big thing for consoles in the next generation. I would expect to see more TiVo type features as well, to make it a complete media device. Remember Microsoft wants to be in everybodies living room as well as their office.

 

[Teasy]

These good services aren't available in my area. We only get offered the dross deals.

I've been pretty lucky with broadband, I live in a small town (only a couple thousand homes) but was lucky enough that Carphone Warehouse put there LLU equipment in my local exchange.

BTW, there's still some decent deals on BT only enabled exchanges you could look in to, for instance Sky offer an up to 8Mb service with 40GB per month downloads for £17 per month (I think its available to none Sky TV customers now as well). Not close to as good as a lot of LLU offers but still pretty good value for money.

 

[AntShaw]

Netflix tells Reuters they have been polling their users about streaming movies onto their 360.

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN2435747920080325

Their watch instantly feature is pretty damn useful, and I find myself using it very often. I don't think this would require a new SKU to be added, but could lead to a netflix box. My comcast DVR was first a 120gb box, and I just got a new one that is 160gb. Could be doable!

 

[Mobius1aic]

Download only games would be suicide. The next generation of games could be using 100 GB or more of data space, which means we would require fast amounts of hard drive space as well extremely fast internet connections to download these large games. Considering it'll take a large leap of mainstream and affordable internet speeds, it's not going to happen for a while unless the game is small, in the realm of 10-15 GB. Console players are not PC gamers, and the mindset with downloading games is different, and even still PC games can be bought in a disc format if a player chooses so. I do think this generation and next we will see more and more games downloadable, but as for making games only available through download is complete suicide and automatically kicks out a viable market that wants to be able to purchase a disc at a local shop, put it in their machine and get playing instead of waiting hours upon hours for their game to finish downloading, possibly tying up internet bandwidth for other members of a household. I don't have that patience, and most people don't either.

 

[Pozer]

Why dl full game code? Why not have a set top box that just downloads a compressed framebuffer rendered at a regional server farm. Then it fails to become an issue of bandwidth and more an issue of latency. Sort of "on demand" gaming.

 

[galperi1]

Microsoft could make it cheaper, considering higher than normal royalties and the lack of a resale market as well as the lower costs of not including optical media drives with the system.

Low price : Nextbox online : $249
Mid price : Next box pro : $349
High point: Next box elite: $449 - as above but larger HDD and extra connections/features/controllers/whatever.

Microsoft wants to drive traffic through XBLA/NNA/Movies/Demos/Full games. What better way than to do so than with a console that comes standard without an optical drive, relying on the internet for its' content?

TV on demand will probably be a big thing for consoles in the next generation. I would expect to see more TiVo type features as well, to make it a complete media device. Remember Microsoft wants to be in everybodies living room as well as their office.

Going down that route will drive MS right out of retail stores. I imagine most stores like Best Buy, CC, etc.. sell consoles at no margins or minimal ones to make up for it in moving software (similar to what MS and Sony do, lose money on console and make it back via software/dlc).

With a move to digital delivery only there would be a strong possibility that stores that move the vast majority of consoles will have no incentive to sell them. This would then significantly lower the volume of consoles sold.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Going down that route will drive MS right out of retail stores.

This matters probably more than anything else. Wal-Mart makes bank off that giant wall of video games. Reduce that to expensive, small-margin boxes, and they probably won't see the point of even carrying them.

 

[cloud9]

Personally, I'm not sure if I would be comfortable with not actually owning the hardware I am playing my games on. If I ever choose to end my cable subscription, all my games would go out the window as well.

That's my personal take, but for a few other reasons, I simply do not see this happening. Not yet anyways...

 

[Squilliam]

So how have things changed in the past few years? We've had rumours of the Nextbox also sporting an HDMI input as well as an output and in the intervening time the Xbox 360 and PS3 are now spending half of the time in use on content streamed over the internet. Probably about a third of the game time is now probably played with games downloaded over the internet as well and that figure is growing. Beyond this we're also looking at the possibility that neither the PS4 or Nextbox will have backwards compatibility so not having an optical drive wouldn't hurt that outcome either. Optical drives are noisy, expensive and are a relatively fixed cost whose utility will decrease as the internet grows in importance as a distribution medium.

 

[MrFox]

A special SKU without a drive would be a good idea, and could be $40 saved for the optical drive, and $40 more expensive for the bigger HDD, which otherwise would be the smallest single-platter available, it's break even, just a choice. Also prevents to have a SKU with only a little flash. Exactly like the PSP-Go, that was an amazing success. Actually I had to look it up, it was so successful I didn't even remember what it was called...

Nobody is naive enough to pay $60 for every game that is locked up in their hardware, or a media that will work as long as the company allows you to play it and still exists, and servers are working fine. Or being unable to backup your collection (or even have to). It's great for ephemeral consumption like renting films, but not for ownership. The only reason MP3 actually worked is because it's unencrypted (we were fucking lucky on that one, both microsoft and apple tried to lock it up in DRM hell, the consumers won). Sadly Films and Games won't ever be unencrypted because their production costs are ridiculously high, and it's not getting any better. Films are only successful in digital distribution when they are rented. Digital ownership is failing, because people are not as naive as the studios would want them to be. I hope we will keep fighting for physical media.

 

[Squilliam]

A special SKU without a drive would be a good idea, and could be $40 saved for the optical drive, and $40 more expensive for the bigger HDD, which otherwise would be the smallest single-platter available, it's break even, just a choice. Also prevents to have a SKU with only a little flash. Exactly like the PSP-Go, that was an amazing success. Actually I had to look it up, it was so successful I didn't even remember what it was called...

$40 saved would probably translate to around $50 at the start of the generation and $60 towards the end once you consider say a 30% margin on the console itself. I don't think they really need to go for a spinning drive as the minimum SKU if you consider what would essentially be light gaming and streaming you could probably get away with 64GB flash for a next gen console. You also have noise and cooling issues which you can better deal with.

Nobody is naive enough to pay $60 for every game that is locked up in their hardware, or a media that will work as long as the company allows you to play it and still exists, and servers are working fine. Or being unable to backup your collection (or even have to). It's great for ephemeral consumption like renting films, but not for ownership.

So long as the license was transferable it should be OK if you can have it tied to an account and a machine like Xbox currently does it especially if the license also applies to the PC version of the game as well. I would be very happy as a PC gamer if buying a game on the Windows store also works on my Xbox in the future and vice versa.

The only reason MP3 actually worked is because it's unencrypted (we were fucking lucky on that one, both microsoft and apple tried to lock it up in DRM hell, the consumers won). Sadly Films and Games won't ever be unencrypted because their production costs are ridiculously high, and it's not getting any better. Films are only successful in digital distribution when they are rented. Digital ownership is failing, because people are not as naive as the studios would want them to be. I hope we will keep fighting for physical media.

The reason for this is that film companies see it as an opportunity to make even more money than physical distribution. Inevitably if you're addressing a worldwide market the proper response would be for the price to go down like with iTunes or else the movie studios risk losing the market entirely to illegal downloads and stream on demand sites. If you can access all the movies you want anyway why do you need to own even a license?

 

[DoctorFouad]

I predict a no fly as well. A console with no physical media is doomed to be marginalized.

I totally agree,

downloading infrastructures arent at all ready, they are still unreliable and too expensive.

I myself have a 100 Mbit/s connexion (real performance 88 Mbit/second), and sometimes I still get some disconnections and problems accessing the internet with my ps3 through ethernet cable. so I wouldnt bet on disk free consoles...

 

[MfA]

A special SKU without a drive would be a good idea, and could be $40 saved for the optical drive.

You can get a drive retail for that right now, also Sony gets a chunk of that back from royalties ... I'd say closer to 20$ at launch, less for Sony.

 

[fehu]

Steam says that you all are wrong
A DD only console option is possible, you buy it only if you can use it and if your isp allow it, and you get the digital titles on the same day as disc are released (like vita)
The real problem is that I can see it like an economic on subscription version, but if you want to do a dd console you have to add a lot of storage

 

[-tkf-]

Man i had this idea we had/have this conversation going somewhere else?

I think a DD only console should be done as a cheap edition of PS4/XBOX720, many would have what they needed and it would make the launch price better. But expect huge games, big downloads and filled harddrives. And those that use the 2nd hand market to save money, they wont join this crowd.

but

With DD you loose control of your purchases, you are basicly subject to the fickle nature of copyright holders and greed, not to mention general capitalism. THQ DD might end up being a bit to "fun" :-/

Steam is a prime example of a single players perfect DD platform, just don't get kids or grow a family, suddenly Steam is a perfect example of just how limited DD can be and the moment you find out is the moment where Steam purchases slows down plus you start thinking about your future purchases on other DRM/DD platforms.

I think that one of the interesting things about the next gen, will be the speculated loss of backwards compatibility. With some people having invested in DD for a whole generation they will see that mountain of games, DLC, Avatars etc go away like tears in the rain. I am very sure that burned customers will learn a lesson and think twice before going the same route with the next generation.

And as mentioned in other threads, DD takes away a good chunk of free promotion from the retail chains and it simply makes it harder to gift games.

 

[mrcorbo]

Steam is a prime example of a single players perfect DD platform, just don't get kids or grow a family, suddenly Steam is a perfect example of just how limited DD can be and the moment you find out is the moment where Steam purchases slows down plus you start thinking about your future purchases on other DRM/DD platforms.

I suppose that there would be a disadvantage with not being able to share a single game library with an entire household due to only being able to log in to a Steam account on one device at a time. What could work, though, is a structure where you were allowed to set up a couple of sub-accounts under a main account and the main account could assign games within it's games library to either itself or one of the sub-accounts.

 

[-tkf-]

I suppose that there would be a disadvantage with not being able to share a single game library with an entire household due to only being able to log in to a Steam account on one device at a time. What could work, though, is a structure where you were allowed to set up a couple of sub-accounts under a main account and the main account could assign games within it's games library to either itself or one of the sub-accounts.

I think there is all the solutions in the world on every DRM platform, why not just random checks every 2nd month on licenses, without the user noticing, long grace periods, infinite sharing from the same / household / IP etc, make the DRM go away from the user perspective and everyone is happy.

I just think it's completely stupid to "own" 152 games on Steam and being able to play 1 at a time, off course there is the offline option, which afaik, is against the TOS. And i am pretty sure they keep tab on which games are played offline..

But as i said about DD

You are basicly subject to the fickle nature of copyright holders and greed, not to mention general capitalism.

I don't know how the 360 works without Live access, can you play everything forever? Or are there circumstances (i think i read about it but i am not exactly sure how it works) where you have to be logged in , in order to play? I just know that in the short period of time that i have had a 360, i have seen Mindcraft complain about Live connectivity more than one time.

On the PS3 i am constantly nagged about i should log in if PSN is down. But the games are activated on a per machine basis.

Uplay (Far Cry 3) GW2 and Pc games alike, keep on pestering me for updates that i have to download in order to play. If i go offline with Uplay, i loose my Cloud saves.. but at least i have the option.

IMHO, DRM and DD doesn't just "work" like a CD or DVD usually does it adds an extra layer of uncertainty where you really don't know when the next problem creeps up.

But our friends from Microsoft and Sony has every chance to get it as right as they can on the next round of consoles. And i really hope they do

 

[mrcorbo]

...make the DRM go away from the user perspective and everyone is happy.

Sure. I tolerate Steam's DRM because in normal use it doesn't ever interfere with me accessing my purchased content. And any potential complications/limitations that may someday arise are more than made up for by the actual benefits I am currently enjoying in my daily use of the service. For me, the benefits far outweigh the risks.

I don't know how the 360 works without Live access, can you play everything forever? Or are there circumstances (i think i read about it but i am not exactly sure how it works) where you have to be logged in , in order to play? I just know that in the short period of time that i have had a 360, i have seen Mindcraft complain about Live connectivity more than one time.

This page explains the 360 DRM better than I could.

But our friends from Microsoft and Sony has every chance to get it as right as they can on the next round of consoles. And i really hope they do

I hope they do, too. Hopefully they realize that it's in their best interest to do so.

 

[AzBat]

I don't know how the 360 works without Live access, can you play everything forever? Or are there circumstances (i think i read about it but i am not exactly sure how it works) where you have to be logged in , in order to play? I just know that in the short period of time that i have had a 360, i have seen Mindcraft complain about Live connectivity more than one time.

DRM on 360 seems to work differently than PS3. Your purchases & downloads are tied to your Gamertag & your machine. If you use or play the content on the machine that it was originally bought on then they don't require you to be logged in. This means that you can use it in offline mode with any profile(not just the one that downloaded it). If you use it on a different machine(there is no limit) then you need to be logged into Xbox Live with the Gamertag that purchased it. This means that no other user can use or play the content if it's not on the original machine it was purchased on. However, as Mrcorbo mentions with the link below you can transfer the drm license for all your content to another machine. They only allow you to do this once every 4 months. It used to be once a year.

Tommy McClain

 

[-tkf-]

DRM on 360 seems to work differently than PS3. Your purchases & downloads are tied to your Gamertag & your machine. If you use or play the content on the machine that it was originally bought on then they don't require you to be logged in. This means that you can use it in offline mode with any profile(not just the one that downloaded it). If you use it on a different machine(there is no limit) then you need to be logged into Xbox Live with the Gamertag that purchased it. This means that no other user can use or play the content if it's not on the original machine it was purchased on. However, as Mrcorbo mentions with the link below you can transfer the drm license for all your content to another machine. They only allow you to do this once every 4 months. It used to be once a year.

Tommy McClain

So, it's a bit like Steam with an automatic offline mode

But i would not be able to actually play my games on 2 XBOX's at a time, unless i login on one and go offline on the other..