Newell: Win8 is a catastrophe; Pardo: I don't disagree.

[Silent_Buddha]

...And the fat fee is purely a security measure as well? Please. It's a tax, and you know it. That it has security benefits is just incentive for developers to pay said tax. Of course, the big incentive isn't security at all, but the fact windows won't load the driver at all by default if it isn't paid for and signed.

This is entirely obvious stuff.

Obviously not as you don't get it. If there was no fee or a minimal fee anyone interested in writing malware could easily get a security certificate. Perhaps you'd prefer if MS did extensive background checks, etc.? Wait no, that would be expensive and hence we're right back to requiring a hefty fee for a certificate.

Of course, legitimate 3rd party driver writers can always attempt to persuade a company with the required cert to allow them to sign their driver. And some have done this. That carries a huge risk to the company with legit certs. however. If the 3rd party driver writer abuses their kindness and releases malware using their certs. they could have their certs revoked with no guarantee they could get another one. Hence, while it does happen, it is extremely rare.

And yes, it is extremely obvious that it is purely about security. Hence why there are far easier ways to shoehorn in 3rd party drivers into 32 bit Windows than 64 bit Windows with 64 bit Windows and variants primarily targetted at the business sector. While 32 bit Windows is almost entirely in the domain of the consumer sector.

Should MS persist on this path, you will start seeing a decreasing focus on the traditional desktop, continuing immediately in the next version of windows. New features will be limited, old features may be pulled, like the start menu was pulled. MS will excuse itself with that the desktop is "legacy", and that metro fills the same purpose just fine, etc. It'll all simply be talk to try and hide that they want to profit from selling all apps on their own app store, and locking down our PCs so that the people who own them no longer have full control of them.

Ignoring the childish and immature insults for the moment. MS has never said and never will say that the "desktop" is legacy. When MS refer to legacy programs they mean programs written prior to the release of Win8. Anything written past that point can be written such that it can also work in Metro if the author desires as long they also follow the restrictions placed on Metro apps. If program authors wished they could also theoretically modify applications released prior to Win8 such that they may work in Metro.

Now, why isn't the Desktop disappearing? Because businesses require the Desktop. Metro will never fullfill the needs of businesses. And revenue from businesses dwarfs revenue from general consumers. I don't expect that to change with WinRT. And even if it does, the revenue from their business stream will still be far too large to just ignore.

You fool!

Newell is upset because the idea of Windows 8 leading onto something like a metro only windows 9 would be a disaster for all windows PC users!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting, more childish ranting and insulting. If you can't make a well reasoned post, then insults and yelling (!!!!!!!!!!!!) must be the way to go.

Metro only for x86 will never happen. The only way this happens in the consumer space is if Microsoft decides to ditch their far more profitable business ventures and commit suicide and only pander to the lower revenue consumer market.

As long as businesses remain a significant part of their revenue stream, then there will always be a version of Windows with a desktop and the ability to install whatever the user wishes that does not have a large potential to compromise the system security of the OS. But even there, MS still allows the user quite some freedom to F-up their OS if they so desire.

It is far more likely that as they have time to more fully develope Windows on Arm that eventually a full blown Windows with desktop will be made available for desktop (but not slate/tablet) Arm devices. All depending on whether there is interest from corporations and businesses for such a thing.

Regards,
SB

 

[Sxotty]

So basically Newell is only whining about being locked out of WinRT just like they are locked out of Android and iOS. They are still unfettered and can do whatever they want on Win8 x86. Only now there's more competition in the form of the Metro App store for the more casual titles (like iOS ports). I'm not sure Metro will affect the sale of mid-large budget titles and whether or not they are sold through Steam.

This is why starting steam has consequences. Now Newell is out stirring FUD that could potentially hurt his own business by decreasing the amount of gamers on the PC platform.

 

[eastmen]

...And the fat fee is purely a security measure as well? Please. It's a tax, and you know it. That it has security benefits is just incentive for developers to pay said tax. Of course, the big incentive isn't security at all, but the fact windows won't load the driver at all by default if it isn't paid for and signed.

This is entirely obvious stuff.


Thank you, Cpt. Obvious. We all know this, and what some here are saying is that this is BAD. Having created this setup, MS has now also created incentive for itself to squeeze out the traditional desktop, since it cannot earn any revenue from it.

Should MS persist on this path, you will start seeing a decreasing focus on the traditional desktop, continuing immediately in the next version of windows. New features will be limited, old features may be pulled, like the start menu was pulled. MS will excuse itself with that the desktop is "legacy", and that metro fills the same purpose just fine, etc. It'll all simply be talk to try and hide that they want to profit from selling all apps on their own app store, and locking down our PCs so that the people who own them no longer have full control of them.

And apple has not done the same on OSX ? This is going to be the future of computing , the OS creators will make much more money because of their stores .

 

[Grall]

Obviously not as you don't get it.

The only thing I don't get, is your apologist behavior in this matter.

If there was no fee or a minimal fee anyone interested in writing malware could easily get a security certificate.

That's a security through obscurity fallacy; it's not a legitimate argument. Placing a fee on a required security certificate does not make the OS more secure.

Perhaps you'd prefer if MS did extensive background checks, etc.?

Perhaps I'd prefer you didn't try to put words in my mouth while sitting with a snooty attitude up on your high horse. MS can have all the required certificates they want, as long as they're offered free of charge. Then they can pull the certificate if it's abused, just like they do right now, like when they pulled some of their own windows update certificates recently for example.

Of course, legitimate 3rd party driver writers can always attempt to persuade a company with the required cert to allow them to sign their driver.

Right. You seriously think this is a feasible solution to a legitimate concern? This is completely unviable, and virtually no company in their right mind would lend their certificates to such spurious use.

And yes, it is extremely obvious that it is purely about security.

Just keep repeating that to yourself and maybe it'll come true.

Hence why there are far easier ways to shoehorn in 3rd party drivers into 32 bit Windows than 64 bit Windows with 64 bit Windows and variants primarily targetted at the business sector.

64-bit OS use has been climbing steadily for years as more and more consumer PCs are delivered with more RAM than 32-bit windows can address properly. IIRC, 64-bit Win7 cracked 50% market share in consumer PCs quite some time ago. Of course MS has been aware this would happen, knowing the bad memory handling in their 32-bit OS versions, and how RAM amounts go up year over year.

That they didn't have the signing requirement for 32-bit drivers was just a matter of practicality I say. It wouldn't hamper the OS's early uptake amongst consumers due to a lack of signed drivers. MS had enough of driver issues with vista, I'm sure they were eager to avoid any similar headlines in the media when 7 launched.

Win8 won't even be available in a 32-bit version, so there it's pay the MS tax or bust. But I'm sure you'll have some glib excuse for that as well... Such is the hallmark of an apologist.

Ignoring the childish and immature insults for the moment.

LOL, wut! Any more snooty passive aggressiveness from you and I'm gonna bust out laughing here.

MS has never said and never will say that the "desktop" is legacy.

Oh maybe not those exact words, but they'll try to discourage the use of the desktop as much as they can, no doubt. The craving for additional revenue is a strong one, especially with MS's deprecated stock value these days.

 

[Rockster]

Like to clear a couple things up that seem to be stressing people for whatever reason.

1) It is possible to side load Metro apps outside the "Store" on Windows 8, WinRT, and Windows Phone 8 by both official and un-official means.
2) While the "WinRT API's" are only supported in the Metro environment and not the desktop, the existing Win32 API's are available for developers to create desktop apps on Windows 8 x86 and WinRT (WOA). Desktop apps can also be installed outside the "Store"
3) Yes, these changes are reactionary to the direction markets are heading and customer expectations with regards end user experience simplification and service based business models. Windows, like everything else, must evolve or die.

Only time will tell if this direction was a good one, but as my father often reminds me, if you aren't moving forward, you're moving backwards and more often than not a bad decision is better than no decision.

 

[MfA]

And apple has not done the same on OSX ? This is going to be the future of computing , the OS creators will make much more money because of their stores .

This is the future for Apple ... Microsoft will not succeed in becoming a better Apple than Apple, if they can't differentiate themselves on something a little more fundamental than the colour scheme of their widgets (aka live tiles) they are doomed.

 

[MfA]

1) It is possible to side load Metro apps outside the "Store" on Windows 8, WinRT, and Windows Phone 8 by both official and un-official means.

Extremely inconvenient means ... with scary dialogue pop ups telling people they are doing it wrong.

PS. do the normal UAC functions asking whether to (always) trust a given signer for software installation still function for side-loaded metro apps with a developer license?

 

[eastmen]

This is the future for Apple ... Microsoft will not succeed in becoming a better Apple than Apple, if they can't differentiate themselves on something a little more fundamental than the colour scheme of their widgets (aka live tiles) they are doomed.

Its the future for all computing.

Right now when photoshop or the newest game is sold on windows 7 MS makes $0 . When these are sold on IOS / Andriod devices Apple/Google makes 30% . With windows rt MS will now make 20-30% and the metro verisons of those on windows 8 will also earn them 20-30% .

MS's profits are going to increase drasticly going into the future .


We can argue t ill we are blue in the face if this is good for the consumer. However a central hub in which to get reviews for the software , to recieve updates for all patches and unified place for support are postives for the consumer.

 

[MfA]

Or people will just buy the original Apple instead of the also ran.

 

[Mize]

Gee, isn't it great?
Either consumers start paying 30-40% more for software or Developers slash their gross margins comparably...for devs who grew up on iOS (mostly small devs) maybe no big deal, but for the likes of Adobe, Autodesk, Unigraphics, Oracle, etc. hmmm...

 

[kache]

I'm searching for a cheap laptop to start learning linux, if Microsoft really intends to follow the road paved with 8.

 

[eastmen]

Or people will just buy the original Apple instead of the also ran.

worked really well for apple the first time around

 

[Mize]

worked really well for apple the first time around

Hmmm....seems someone around here was recently going on about the importance of mind share...do you think comparing Apple now to Apple then is remotely accurate? The only reason Apple isn't more successful in computers is that it's a closed hardware platform so consumers don't get as much hardware competition. How can MS moving more in this direction be seen as a good thing?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Huh, how is win 8 a closed hardware platform?

 

[eastmen]

Hmmm....seems someone around here was recently going on about the importance of mind share...do you think comparing Apple now to Apple then is remotely accurate? The only reason Apple isn't more successful in computers is that it's a closed hardware platform so consumers don't get as much hardware competition. How can MS moving more in this direction be seen as a good thing?

Apple was much bigger than MS back in the 80s , people still went and bought the better platform and MS became the sucess they were in the 90s / 2000s .

People will still go for the better system which is again windows. Popularity only works for so long until something else becomes popular.

Huh, how is win 8 a closed hardware platform?

Its not , they are just trying to push an agenda

 

[Mize]

Huh, how is win 8 a closed hardware platform?

It's not, but MS has limited tablet manufacturers substantially and launched its own tablet.
Since when is "moving in that direction" the same as moved all the way there again?

 

[Mize]

Apple was much bigger than MS back in the 80s , people still went and bought the better platform and MS became the sucess they were in the 90s / 2000s .

People will still go for the better system which is again windows. Popularity only works for so long until something else becomes popular.

So a CP/M rip-off / clone was the better system and that's why people chose it, right?
It had nothing to do with IBM? Or "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM"? It was just the superior system?

L M F A O

Give me a break...Window 3.1 was better than MacOS? At what? Running DOS apps?
IBM got Microsoft off the ground and open architectures got MS to where it is today. W7 is MILES better than XP which was MILES better than W95, but you must have missed a whole slew of other OSes to claim the best one always wins...Amiga, NeXTStep, QNX & BeOS to name a few.

 

[eastmen]

So a CP/M rip-off / clone was the better system and that's why people chose it, right?
It had nothing to do with IBM? Or "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM"? It was just the superior system?

L M F A O

Give me a break...Window 3.1 was better than MacOS? At what? Running DOS apps?
IBM got Microsoft off the ground and open architectures got MS to where it is today. W7 is MILES better than XP which was MILES better than W95, but you must have missed a whole slew of other OSes to claim the best one always wins...Amiga, NeXTStep, QNX & BeOS to name a few.

Yes windows 3.1 was better than the macOS of the day. All the Windows OS's have been better.

It's not, but MS has limited tablet manufacturers substantially and launched its own tablet.
Since when is "moving in that direction" the same as moved all the way there again?

MS hasn't prevented any manufacturers from releaseing windows 8 pcs . They are only limited in windows RT tablets and that will change in 2013 as more partners are let in.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I fail to see how Windows8 "closes off" the platform in any way. You can buy software from any source and install it as you always would. You can buy any compatible hardware and throw your own PC together. Tablet makers will be able to make Windows 8 RT tablets. So, has anything actually changed?

 

[Grall]

Apple was much bigger than MS back in the 80s , people still went and bought the better platform and MS became the sucess they were in the 90s / 2000s .

Rofl, Apple bigger than MS in the 80s, since when? MS having the better platform? That would mean you seriously believe DOS (a bootstrap loader and nothing more) being better than Mac system x, a full-featured graphical, windowing OS? Get the F outta here with your history revisionism...