New TV (DLP)!!
- Thread starter London Geezer
- Start date
geo said:
Yeah i meant to amend my post but i didn't think anyone would notice... Damn.
Still, i have yet to see the difference between 720p and 1080i, cause you know, in London (~8million people, one of the largest city in the world etc...) there is ONE place i've seen a plasma running HD material, so that's asking a bit much.
Here's a danger not too many people mention in advance: Your vhs collection, if you have one, will become useless. Oh, not technically --but after about a week you won't be able to force yourself to watch them on a TV like that. So if you need to record, and don't have one already, seriously consider a DVR of some sort. Basically SD broadcast becomes the new baseline for acceptable quality. At least that's what we found.
geo said:
I haven't watched a single VHS (Or plugged a VCR to a TV) since 2000.
And i was looking at DVD upconverters, you can get relatively cheap (£130) DVD players with HDMI output that upconvert the picture to 720p/1080i, it's not too expensive, and considering i'm getting a TV like that (if not that one), i might as well go all out. Some of these players support *everything* from DVD-A to DIVX to SACD...
london-boy said:geo said:
I haven't watched a single VHS (Or plugged a VCR to a TV) since 2000.
And i was looking at DVD upconverters, you can get relatively cheap (£130) DVD players with HDMI output that upconvert the picture to 720p/1080i, it's not too expensive, and considering i'm getting a TV like that (if not that one), i might as well go all out. Some of these players support *everything* from DVD-A to DIVX to SACD...
Hang on a minute on that one. I went there too, initially, and then asked around. The upconvert DVD player is not doing anything that your TV isn't already doing (because you have a DLP). So it's just dueling scalers at that point, and your TV probably has a better one, because it has to convert everything to 720p, and if it didn't have a good built-in scaler on its own it wouldn't do well in reviews.
geo said:
Even worse, I can't force my better half to record her favorite tv shows to VHS anymore when I gotta watch some important stuff. Last time Formula one was on, I had to go to my friend's place so that she could watch Gilmore Girls. She absolutely refused to record it because she had had enough with the horrible iq. She has never, ever complained about technical matters such as that before
geo said:
Well that's what i thought initially, but from reviews and stuff it seems that just the fact of having the DVD player plugged through HDMI means a lot in terms of detailed images. Going through analog is not healthy.
london-boy said:
Hmm, to be honest I think you should wait then. Simply because by the time you are ready to watch HD, the technology will have moved on and you should be able to find something cheaper and/or better. I know it tough to wait. But if you are replacing a nearly dead set, then I understand.
london-boy said:
Hmm, not sure what good enough is. Head on over to the AVS forums. In fact there is a UK version of the forum where you will find way more knowledgeable (about this subject anyhow) than here.
london-boy said:
Oh, interesting. Barely any TV, ok.
london-boy said:
Naw, not really. Most people can't tell the difference between DVD through component and DVI/HDMI. Even 720P/1080i broadcasts are pretty much indistinguishable. The only time it can easily be noticed is if your cable runs are too long or if your equipment has some sort of weird issue with one input or another.
This is what I've gathered from the AVS folks who have tried non-scientific tests (i.e. swap cables and look for a difference or have the wife swap and the husband has to guess which is which).
Mendel said:geo said:
Even worse, I can't force my better half to record her favorite tv shows to VHS anymore when I gotta watch some important stuff. Last time Formula one was on, I had to go to my friend's place so that she could watch Gilmore Girls. She absolutely refused to record it because she had had enough with the horrible iq. She has never, ever complained about technical matters such as that before
In another thread I mentioned my joy at our new Comcast DVR, largely because it does HD recordings.
But it also will do two recordings simultaneously, and both can be in HD. Got to watch 24 and last ep of Everybody Loves Raymond that way on Monday. A beautiful, beautiful thing. . .
Mintmaster
Veteran
That's because the internal reduction to 480p is effectively supersampling of the XBox image.kyleb said:
If the difference between 480p and 720p was so small, then this whole HD movement wouldn't have much traction. I see a huge difference, especially with text. You need half-decent eyesight though - my old glasses are good enough for day to day activities, but are just barely good enough for the sharpest details of an SD signal on my 29" CRT.
I'm also looking at a DLP TV, but I'm probably going to hold out for the 1080 sets since they're so close now.
What do you mean by "If the difference between 480p and 720p was so small"? I wrote quite plainly in the post you quoted that that the difference is very noticeable even on an ED display, and obviously an HD display will show that difference even more. And yeah, it comes down to suppersampling when it comes to the image quality provided by outputing an HD rendered resolution to an ED screen; but all the same the difference is striking and native resolution of the display is only one factor of many that contribute to overall image quality anyway.
Well i just found out that the viewing angle for these DLPs are atrocious (in the regions of 50 degrees either sideways or vertically), so it's not gonna happen.
london-boy said:
Horizontally it's not so bad (much better than old CRT RP sets). Vertical view angles are horrible though - and one of the reasons why I did not go for a FP DLP either - because sometimes I like to lie back on my bean bag chair in front of the set and play games.
I also detested uneven screen brightness - ugh. Can't stand that.
Well i went to a "showroom" today - if so you can call it - and they had the Toshiba DLP i was talking about earlier in the thread.
It was off.
Gotta love the UK...
Anyway, never realised how big 46" actually is. Although i think the model itself looks bigger than it really is... looks quite appealing, but obviously i couldn't check the IQ...
Oh well...
It was off.
Gotta love the UK...
Anyway, never realised how big 46" actually is. Although i think the model itself looks bigger than it really is... looks quite appealing, but obviously i couldn't check the IQ...
Oh well...
Mintmaster
Veteran
I know you did. However, you were saying that an ED display is not as much of a disadvantage as one might think. You were then offering your XBOX as evidence that ED will show some of improvements that 720p brings over 480p. This is misleading though. The improved picture has nothing to do with the 720p vs. 480p signals, but rather the fact that the XBOX is rendering at a higher res. If the XBOX downsampled the 1280x720 framebuffer to 852x480, you'd see exactly the same improved image regardless of signal.kyleb said:
What I'm saying is that the XBOX signals does not accurately represent what your missing with an ED display. For example, if you had an HD satellite reciever that was tuned into a 720p or 1080i broadcast, you would see no difference between the 720p signal and the 480p signal output setting for your reciever; in fact, the latter might look better.
Even now you're saying 720p provides a "very noticeable" improvement over 480p on your ED display, implying the picture resolution is limited by the signal. That is not true.
On the side, your corollary above isn't "obvious". Assume 480p looks the same on ED and HD displays. An HD display will give you a certain maximum amount of picture quality improvement between a 480p and 720p signal. The bigger the difference shown on the ED display between the 720p and 480p, the smaller the difference between the ED and HD displays. That's why I assumed you were playing down the difference between HD and ED.
Anyways, that last paragraph was just academic. In actuality, an ED display will not show any benefit with 720p over 480p when equivalent source material is used.
Mintmaster
Veteran
You sure you were looking at a DLP? Horizontally they're a lot better than that. That's what first attracted to me to this technology. I never really considered a CRT rear projection for this reason. Even when looking only a few degrees off axis, RPCRT has uneven brightness.london-boy said:
I've always wondered why they don't make more diffusive screens. DLP has plenty of brightness to sacrifice for viewing angle. Lots of people would be instant converts from plasma if this was done.
Mintmaster said:
Hey,
well as i said i've never seen it in person.
I found out just by reading up reviews and stuff.
Horizontally it's not too bad, yeah, but the consensus is that vertically you pretty much can't be but a very few degrees from the screen height.
Understood how the xbox being aloud to render at higher resolution is a best case senerio and with next gen consoles always rendering HD resolutions and downsampling internally when needed it won't show the same difference. However, your last point which I quoted got me thinking; 480p is 720x480, where as my ED display is 852x480. So, wouldn't I be gaining a little over 18% resolution by letting the display downsample thw image to the native resolution of the glass instead of downsampling a HD source to 480p externally? Also downsampleing at the source only to do upsampling at display is asking for trouble as well I would think, eh?Mintmaster said:
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