http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/0608/kaigai277.htm
Here's the second segment of the new Ken Kutaragi interview by Hiroshige Goto. Not sure if this is the end of the interview but this segment is an extension of the previous one and he talks about the price model of PS3 and the strategy.
(The blog entry by an ex-Microsoft VP Toru Furukawa about the behind-closed-door demo of the Cell HD video prototype system at NAB 2006 that appears in the interview is here. Apparently that system had one Cell and one NVIDIA GPU with 4K video buffer, and could play realtime 4,000 QVGA MPEG2 streams simultaneously while clustering small screens in a 3D mosaic on a 4Kx2K digital cinema SXRD projector through SDI.
http://spaces.msn.com/furukawablog/Blog/cns!156823E649BD3714!3406.entry )
In PS3 the business model changes from that of a game console
Hiroshige Goto: As for PLAYSTATION 3(PS3), the reactions to the price announced at E3 have been interesting. People in the game industry say it's expensive, while it's still cheap if you look at it from the PC standpoint. But most users will view it as a game console, the antipathy is very strong.
Ken Kutaragi: PS3 is overwhelmingly cheap if you look at it as a home appliance. But, if you look at it as a game console, you'll be like "well, then I'll buy PS2 instead." In these situations, there are always objects that appear in "if you look at it as something." But for PS3, they should not exist. We already think PS3 is PS3.
HG: Can't it become a computer without getting out of the game console price and business model?
KK: The (business) model of the game consists of contents and hardware business. If there's one more, in the Nintendo days it was royalties. But our message at this time on PS3 is clear. Hardware is hardware (Hardware does its own business).
HG: Can I think like this, traditionally game consoles have been taking the business model that relies on not only the profit from hardware. But, if you want people to use PS3 as a computer, that model does not work. If you can't do business by getting enough profit from hardware you can't grow software on a computer. Therefore you can't take the business model in which the profit from hardware is very thin, which is what I assume.
KK: Yes. In terms of the business model, it changes in PS3. (When it becomes a computer) the business model in which you lose in hardware and balance it by royalties doesn't work. I want people to share the PS3 computer and then want gunmen or top gun (programmers) to show their skill.
HG: It's like the dawning days of PC. However because SCEI also continue PS3 contents, it looks like a hybrid model.
KK: We are going to propose interesting softwares on PS3 by ourselves. It's best if we can take them to services. We'll do business there too.
HG: Basically you do business by hardware, in addition you want to do business by game and non-game software, and if possible by service too.
KK: We released so many contents (on PS2). Without interfering with third parties, in the sense that we create interesting contents together, I think whether we win or not is decided by contents.
If Apple sell PS3 it can be sold even at $2,000
HG: It's extremely difficult to break the concept of "the price of game console". Users have been familiar with prices such as $299 and $199.
KK: If Mr. Jobs (Steve Jobs, CEO, Apple Computer) adds an Apple logo (onto PS3) I think (users) will say it can be sold at $2,000. However it's not possible for the PLAYSTATION brand. That is the difference in the computer world between the PLAYSTATION brand and the Apple brand. Nevertheless I think PS3 can be sold as a PLAYSTATION because PS3 belongs to the PLAYSTATION brand.
HG: To get out of the game console model and approach Apple, you have to show the message that you want people to view it as not a game console but a PS3 computer.
KK: Yes. Therefore we push PS3. We want to go to the degree where PLAYSTATION becomes a pronoun.
HG: You mean, not that PlayStation is one of game consoles, but the pronoun of an entertainment computer becomes PLAYSTATION.
KK: Therefore I wanted to put Linux from the day 1 of the PS3 release.
But it's not important that it's Linux. (In PS3) on the Cell base (Cell OS Hypervisor) you can put Linux and if you will Windows or Tiger (Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger"). But OS itself is not a problem anymore. Because in PS3, an OS is like an application.
What's interesting for me is Mr. Jobs of Apple said the same things. I think Mr. Jobs said Windows is not more than an application on Macintosh, it's normal that an OS is there, then what's really important is what comes on top of that. Clearly what's important is software, platform, and service.
HG: So you think when there is a virtual machine, the philosophy of binding things by an OS like the Windows model is old, and someone may create even an OS.
KK: Perhaps, I think more Cell-native general OS may appear.
PS3 will start to change when it gets in everyday life
HG: The key for a computer is non-game applications.
KK: Probably, the use (of PS3 as a computer) will change when it gets in everyday life of people. If talented people can develop PS3 applications at which everyone is surprised, it will start to run just like PC did.
HG: Do you mean the ecosystem where softwares and services do business on hardwares starts to run like that of PC?
KK: The days when Apple was great were like that. WWDC (Apple technology conference) filled Moscone Center. If it can start to run it will become lively of its own accord.
HG: If an ecosystem is established the number of softwares will increase automatically and the appeal for PS3 will increase, PS3 will pervade further, then it's possible to enter the cycle where more software appear. But many people doubt a non-game ecosystem work on PS3.
KK: PSP is one of examples. In Japan, the world of Nintendo DS is in a good condition and PSP is halfway. But in the US and Europe everything appears on PSP as grassroots because PSP is in the computer realm. Various softwares, and accessories. So we hear even voices from the SCEI internal that propose stopping the release of PSP accessories. It's because they release what they want like Macintosh. I want PS3 to be like that.
HG: Do you mean if the hardware is interesting those who create softwares and accessories become lively?
KK: If it's said that the (programming) is difficult, they'll get stimulated. If they are really talented they can see (what others can't) apparently.
HG: To make it a base where open programming is possible, you have to supply necessary information, environment, and libraries.
KK: So we made Cell an open format and asked Barcelona University (Supercomputing Center) to host it. Harrison (Phil Harrison, President, Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios) said hundreds of middleware makers are contacting. It's interesting those people start to work intensely. Besides, it can run Java with ease.
HG: If it's virtualized like Java in an upper level it's not bound by a native CPU instruction set. For example, don't you create a runtime that can directly compile Java into the Cell SPE instruction set?
KK: Well, rather, it's better to create softwares first so it's about order in the todo list. In terms of business it's better to sell millions of units by creating softwares. Besides you know there are (software development) gunmen. Such people exist in the world of computer, they may do it.
HG: Don't you request Transmeta to develop it? They are the professionals about it.
KK: Transmeta does not have many personnels. They are doing the far more important thing which is about decreasing the wattage.
What's close to the SCEI vision is current Apple
HG: To differentiate PS3 as a computer from PC which is a computer, it needs an application only possible for PS3 that exploits the computing power of Cell. When I interviewed you before you cited things like non-linear HD video editing.
KK: We showed non-linear HD editing at the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) event before E3. It's a Cell-based HD video edit system. At a pre-event before NAB we did a demo like serving and transcoding various formats from Cell to a 4K-2K projector. It could get really good feedback and ex-Microsoft Mr. Furukawa wrote he was really surprised in his blog. I think it'll become normal.
HG: Will SCEI continue to develop non-game applications in the background of game platform development?
KK: We are really interested.
HG: It seems Apple competes with the PS3 vision of SCEI.
KK: Rather than Microsoft, it's Apple of which vision is directly close. But, it's not like competition, on the contrary it's pleasant to be in the same place.
HG: But if PS3 is a computer it's possible to compete against future Apple products at home in reality.
KK: Of course, they are not competing now but not sure in future. In 2007 or 2008, when the Apple and Intel collaboration begins to come to fruition, naturally what they target won't be only a music player.
HG: You may clash in the domain of home entertainment computer.
KK: Yes. I think Mr. Jobs likes computer probably. Then, our visions naturally overlap.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/0609/kaigai278.htm
This is the third segment, it's a bit laid back part so I just post a summary.
+ When Kutaragi talked about e-Distribution at Microprocessor Forum in 1999 the reaction in the US was lukewarm since most of households used 56K. Finally it's become possible with the PS3. It's a strong message from SCE that they start it from the day 1 of the PS3.
+ SCE didn't talk much about the network at E3 as it's not related to retailers at the event.
+ Apple does online distribution (with iTunes), Google already uses network, but Microsoft is a bit behind as they say "Xbox 360 is a game console."
+ When e-Distribution goes to the extreme no disc drive is required, even HDD is not required in the client side. But it's still far from realization because of server bandwidth so Blu-ray can exist for a while, and it will refresh industrial world and distribution system. If Kutaragi talked about a vison of 5 years later again (instead of BD) people would be starved (laugh) But the trend will be e-Distribution as the PS3 is connected to servers from the day 1.
+ Network distributed realtime computing (= Cell computing) is also the target. What's Google is doing in their central servers is close but Cell computing is realtime.
+ In parallel with game platform development, Chatani (CTO) is in charge of Cell computing development. At E3 which is a trade show most of the talk were with retailers toward the holiday season, so SCE didn't talk about Cell computing, but it'd be different if it's CES.
+ For Cell server they are working with IBM and SCE may release a game server. Kutaragi wants game servers such as Polyphony Digital ones to be Cell-based. In the future he wants to create a cyber world by stacking up thousands of Cell servers.
Here's the second segment of the new Ken Kutaragi interview by Hiroshige Goto. Not sure if this is the end of the interview but this segment is an extension of the previous one and he talks about the price model of PS3 and the strategy.
(The blog entry by an ex-Microsoft VP Toru Furukawa about the behind-closed-door demo of the Cell HD video prototype system at NAB 2006 that appears in the interview is here. Apparently that system had one Cell and one NVIDIA GPU with 4K video buffer, and could play realtime 4,000 QVGA MPEG2 streams simultaneously while clustering small screens in a 3D mosaic on a 4Kx2K digital cinema SXRD projector through SDI.
http://spaces.msn.com/furukawablog/Blog/cns!156823E649BD3714!3406.entry )
In PS3 the business model changes from that of a game console
Hiroshige Goto: As for PLAYSTATION 3(PS3), the reactions to the price announced at E3 have been interesting. People in the game industry say it's expensive, while it's still cheap if you look at it from the PC standpoint. But most users will view it as a game console, the antipathy is very strong.
Ken Kutaragi: PS3 is overwhelmingly cheap if you look at it as a home appliance. But, if you look at it as a game console, you'll be like "well, then I'll buy PS2 instead." In these situations, there are always objects that appear in "if you look at it as something." But for PS3, they should not exist. We already think PS3 is PS3.
HG: Can't it become a computer without getting out of the game console price and business model?
KK: The (business) model of the game consists of contents and hardware business. If there's one more, in the Nintendo days it was royalties. But our message at this time on PS3 is clear. Hardware is hardware (Hardware does its own business).
HG: Can I think like this, traditionally game consoles have been taking the business model that relies on not only the profit from hardware. But, if you want people to use PS3 as a computer, that model does not work. If you can't do business by getting enough profit from hardware you can't grow software on a computer. Therefore you can't take the business model in which the profit from hardware is very thin, which is what I assume.
KK: Yes. In terms of the business model, it changes in PS3. (When it becomes a computer) the business model in which you lose in hardware and balance it by royalties doesn't work. I want people to share the PS3 computer and then want gunmen or top gun (programmers) to show their skill.
HG: It's like the dawning days of PC. However because SCEI also continue PS3 contents, it looks like a hybrid model.
KK: We are going to propose interesting softwares on PS3 by ourselves. It's best if we can take them to services. We'll do business there too.
HG: Basically you do business by hardware, in addition you want to do business by game and non-game software, and if possible by service too.
KK: We released so many contents (on PS2). Without interfering with third parties, in the sense that we create interesting contents together, I think whether we win or not is decided by contents.
If Apple sell PS3 it can be sold even at $2,000
HG: It's extremely difficult to break the concept of "the price of game console". Users have been familiar with prices such as $299 and $199.
KK: If Mr. Jobs (Steve Jobs, CEO, Apple Computer) adds an Apple logo (onto PS3) I think (users) will say it can be sold at $2,000. However it's not possible for the PLAYSTATION brand. That is the difference in the computer world between the PLAYSTATION brand and the Apple brand. Nevertheless I think PS3 can be sold as a PLAYSTATION because PS3 belongs to the PLAYSTATION brand.
HG: To get out of the game console model and approach Apple, you have to show the message that you want people to view it as not a game console but a PS3 computer.
KK: Yes. Therefore we push PS3. We want to go to the degree where PLAYSTATION becomes a pronoun.
HG: You mean, not that PlayStation is one of game consoles, but the pronoun of an entertainment computer becomes PLAYSTATION.
KK: Therefore I wanted to put Linux from the day 1 of the PS3 release.
But it's not important that it's Linux. (In PS3) on the Cell base (Cell OS Hypervisor) you can put Linux and if you will Windows or Tiger (Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger"). But OS itself is not a problem anymore. Because in PS3, an OS is like an application.
What's interesting for me is Mr. Jobs of Apple said the same things. I think Mr. Jobs said Windows is not more than an application on Macintosh, it's normal that an OS is there, then what's really important is what comes on top of that. Clearly what's important is software, platform, and service.
HG: So you think when there is a virtual machine, the philosophy of binding things by an OS like the Windows model is old, and someone may create even an OS.
KK: Perhaps, I think more Cell-native general OS may appear.
PS3 will start to change when it gets in everyday life
HG: The key for a computer is non-game applications.
KK: Probably, the use (of PS3 as a computer) will change when it gets in everyday life of people. If talented people can develop PS3 applications at which everyone is surprised, it will start to run just like PC did.
HG: Do you mean the ecosystem where softwares and services do business on hardwares starts to run like that of PC?
KK: The days when Apple was great were like that. WWDC (Apple technology conference) filled Moscone Center. If it can start to run it will become lively of its own accord.
HG: If an ecosystem is established the number of softwares will increase automatically and the appeal for PS3 will increase, PS3 will pervade further, then it's possible to enter the cycle where more software appear. But many people doubt a non-game ecosystem work on PS3.
KK: PSP is one of examples. In Japan, the world of Nintendo DS is in a good condition and PSP is halfway. But in the US and Europe everything appears on PSP as grassroots because PSP is in the computer realm. Various softwares, and accessories. So we hear even voices from the SCEI internal that propose stopping the release of PSP accessories. It's because they release what they want like Macintosh. I want PS3 to be like that.
HG: Do you mean if the hardware is interesting those who create softwares and accessories become lively?
KK: If it's said that the (programming) is difficult, they'll get stimulated. If they are really talented they can see (what others can't) apparently.
HG: To make it a base where open programming is possible, you have to supply necessary information, environment, and libraries.
KK: So we made Cell an open format and asked Barcelona University (Supercomputing Center) to host it. Harrison (Phil Harrison, President, Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios) said hundreds of middleware makers are contacting. It's interesting those people start to work intensely. Besides, it can run Java with ease.
HG: If it's virtualized like Java in an upper level it's not bound by a native CPU instruction set. For example, don't you create a runtime that can directly compile Java into the Cell SPE instruction set?
KK: Well, rather, it's better to create softwares first so it's about order in the todo list. In terms of business it's better to sell millions of units by creating softwares. Besides you know there are (software development) gunmen. Such people exist in the world of computer, they may do it.
HG: Don't you request Transmeta to develop it? They are the professionals about it.
KK: Transmeta does not have many personnels. They are doing the far more important thing which is about decreasing the wattage.
What's close to the SCEI vision is current Apple
HG: To differentiate PS3 as a computer from PC which is a computer, it needs an application only possible for PS3 that exploits the computing power of Cell. When I interviewed you before you cited things like non-linear HD video editing.
KK: We showed non-linear HD editing at the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) event before E3. It's a Cell-based HD video edit system. At a pre-event before NAB we did a demo like serving and transcoding various formats from Cell to a 4K-2K projector. It could get really good feedback and ex-Microsoft Mr. Furukawa wrote he was really surprised in his blog. I think it'll become normal.
HG: Will SCEI continue to develop non-game applications in the background of game platform development?
KK: We are really interested.
HG: It seems Apple competes with the PS3 vision of SCEI.
KK: Rather than Microsoft, it's Apple of which vision is directly close. But, it's not like competition, on the contrary it's pleasant to be in the same place.
HG: But if PS3 is a computer it's possible to compete against future Apple products at home in reality.
KK: Of course, they are not competing now but not sure in future. In 2007 or 2008, when the Apple and Intel collaboration begins to come to fruition, naturally what they target won't be only a music player.
HG: You may clash in the domain of home entertainment computer.
KK: Yes. I think Mr. Jobs likes computer probably. Then, our visions naturally overlap.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/0609/kaigai278.htm
This is the third segment, it's a bit laid back part so I just post a summary.
+ When Kutaragi talked about e-Distribution at Microprocessor Forum in 1999 the reaction in the US was lukewarm since most of households used 56K. Finally it's become possible with the PS3. It's a strong message from SCE that they start it from the day 1 of the PS3.
+ SCE didn't talk much about the network at E3 as it's not related to retailers at the event.
+ Apple does online distribution (with iTunes), Google already uses network, but Microsoft is a bit behind as they say "Xbox 360 is a game console."
+ When e-Distribution goes to the extreme no disc drive is required, even HDD is not required in the client side. But it's still far from realization because of server bandwidth so Blu-ray can exist for a while, and it will refresh industrial world and distribution system. If Kutaragi talked about a vison of 5 years later again (instead of BD) people would be starved (laugh) But the trend will be e-Distribution as the PS3 is connected to servers from the day 1.
+ Network distributed realtime computing (= Cell computing) is also the target. What's Google is doing in their central servers is close but Cell computing is realtime.
+ In parallel with game platform development, Chatani (CTO) is in charge of Cell computing development. At E3 which is a trade show most of the talk were with retailers toward the holiday season, so SCE didn't talk about Cell computing, but it'd be different if it's CES.
+ For Cell server they are working with IBM and SCE may release a game server. Kutaragi wants game servers such as Polyphony Digital ones to be Cell-based. In the future he wants to create a cyber world by stacking up thousands of Cell servers.
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