New Cell patents from IBM's Gschwind: the software side :).

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nAo said:
Me is gonna kill Panajev :)

PLEASE..use english as board language, or use PM

Mais pourquoi veux-tu que l'on utilise l'anglais comme base commune, on ferait mieux de tous s’exprimer dans nos langues maternelles respectives, ce serait beaucoup plus simple à comprendre…

Ou peux être pas… :D

"El Pericoloso Sporgersi" since that's one of the only sentence i know in italian...let's try to keep the discussion in 'ye old fashionned english' eh eh
 
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Wow, my worst fear realized.

1. MPI style coding.
2. APUs are not abstracted, they are individually visible to end programmer.

With manual APU execution scheduling and synchronization, there is no way programmers can effectively program that thing without lots of effort.

Compare to CELL APU, all DX shaders appear as one, irrelevant of their actual count. Developers are going to jump ship to Xbox Next by a truckload after this information is leaked.

MPI-style coding maybe acceptable for academia and public research program, but it is not mature enough for commercial world.
 
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Deadmeat3 said:
Wow, my worst fear realized.

1. MPI style coding.
2. APUs are not abstracted, they are individually visible to end programmer.

First, where did you get the info that this concerns end-programmers and not OS/api programmers.(I'm not cynical here.)

Two, "The return of the living banned" could turn into a gore movie, if Sonic see it.(here, i'm cynical, i confess.)
 
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Deadmeat3 said:
Wow, my worst fear realized.

1. MPI style coding.
2. APUs are not abstracted, they are individually visible to end programmer.

With manual APU execution scheduling and synchronization, there is no way programmers can effectively program that thing without lots of effort.

Compare to CELL APU, all DX shaders appear as one, irrelevant of their actual count. Developers are going to jump ship to Xbox Next by a truckload after this information is leaked.

MPI-style coding maybe acceptable for academia and public research program, but it is not mature enough for commercial world.

I am sure that since late 2002, when the patent was filed, the geniuses at IBM ( who is doing the bulk of the OS work IIRC ), Toshiba and SCE ( they qualify for the status of genius, do you Deadmeat ? ) have found no acceptable solution.
 
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First, where did you get the info that this concerns end-programmers and not OS/api programmers.(I'm not cynical here.)
The forth link contains a small bit of CPU/APU code. You read it and you understand what kind of programming model CELL employs.

I have known how CELL works for three years, but I prayed they would reconsider, believing that there would be a shred of sanity and compassion for programmers left in them; I was wrong.

As bas as EE VU programming was, at least it didn't involve data synchronization between R5900 and VU(R5900 simply shoots the data into VU and forgets the rest); now CELL prgramming not only requires far more(8) APUs to deal with, but developers now have to manually synchronize data access between 8 APUs and PowerPC in the master code as well.

You now understand why Tim Sweeney said he couldn't possibly imagine how he could program for CELL....
 
...

I am sure that since late 2002, when the patent was filed, the geniuses at IBM ( who is doing the bulk of the OS work IIRC ), Toshiba and SCE ( they qualify for the status of genius, do you Deadmeat ? ) have found no acceptable solution.
IBM is simply developing CELL in accordance with the requirement of their paying customer. IBM has no use for CELL and doesn't care whether it is programmable or not.
 
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Deadmeat3 said:
I am sure that since late 2002, when the patent was filed, the geniuses at IBM ( who is doing the bulk of the OS work IIRC ), Toshiba and SCE ( they qualify for the status of genius, do you Deadmeat ? ) have found no acceptable solution.
IBM is simply developing CELL in accordance with the requirement of their paying customer. IBM has no use for CELL and doesn't care whether it is programmable or not.

Oh yeah ?

http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/uk/consultants/pdfs/Dr_Frank_Soltis_Interview.PDF

http://www-1.ibm.com/businesscenter...featurearticle/gcl_xmlid/8649/nav_id/emerging

F.U.D., F.U.D. and more F.U.D. with some F.U.D. to the side.

Still, what if the requirments were "nice programmability" ?

Defeated by your own argument.
 
Re: ....

Deadmeat3 said:
First, where did you get the info that this concerns end-programmers and not OS/api programmers.(I'm not cynical here.)
The forth link contains a small bit of CPU/APU code. You read it and you understand what kind of programming model CELL employs.

I have known how CELL works for three years, but I prayed they would reconsider, believing that there would be a shred of sanity and compassion for programmers left in them; I was wrong.

You are such a drama queen... those patents were filed almost two years ago and you cannot say that IBM, Toshiba and Sony sit there idle without doing one single thing about it ;).
 
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Panajev2001a said:
...you cannot say that IBM, Toshiba and Sony sit there idle without doing one single thing about it ;).

Oh yes he can say it, that's the only thing he can do about it. ;)

BTW i'm reading thoses patents (sure i didn't finish read them), and there's nothing about end-programmers, sure it talk about programming to the metal, but someone at a moment HAVE to actually code directly to the metal;
OS, Api, and others Programmers that actually WANT to code the silicon themselves are all possibilities that you can't count out.

IF the ps3 HAVE TO be programmed without passing throught a "layer" that abstract the "metal" (can't express that right in english), then it might* appears as a serious complication for developers.
But all the latest comments/rumors indicates that Sony, won't do this kind of errors, especially when MS is pushing its XNA solution forward publicly.

I really hope that sony that about it's software (Dev tools) at E3.
 
Vysez said:
I must say that anything might end up better than VU0 since it's at best "not what it was supposed to be" or worse it's broken. People said that it was the result of some "last minute" cutdowns in the EE architecture, others (DM) said it was because K.Kutagari hates programmers and wants them to suffer for years, looking for solution for the VU0.
Actually according to Deadmeat VU1 is the broken last minute addition one. And inspite the fact that anyone who ever touched the system tells him otherwise, he continues to claim it.
That said, VU0 isn't broken, but it lacks what APU has (internal ability to trigger in/out memory transfers) to reach full potential.

Anyway, I've only browsed through the first patent so far, but I can't see what Deadmeat is freaking out about (aside for it involving Kutaragi, Ken!). It looks no different then programming various shaders to me, and very much like what I expected based on other patents.
It still doesn't tell me anything about what they intend to do with rasterizing side though. Contrary to some people here, I haven't seen any evidence to support those "sotware rasterizer" claims yet, actually rather the opposite if I am to believe that "layer renderer" patent.

IF the ps3 HAVE TO be programmed without passing throught a "layer" that abstract the "metal" (can't express that right in english), then it might* appears as a serious complication for developers.
Depends what exactly you expect from an abstraction layer to do in the first place.
According to DM, the only abstraction layer that is "good enough" is one that makes your entire program look like it was coded for a single CPU (which means the Xenon won't even come close to satisfy his requirements either).
Again, haven't read the other patents yet, but nothing here implies yet that you will have to explicitly control individual APUs or their load distribution. Although in some cases that might actually be nice to have as an option.
 
Fafalada said:
It still doesn't tell me anything about what they intend to do with rasterizing side though.
From a snippet of pseudo you can read that transformed and lighted triangles by an APU are sent to a thing called Realizer
Well..now we have even a more exotic name for the rasterizer part than the previous name Visualizer, but we still don't know a thing about it though :)

ciao,
Marco
 
Fafalada said:
Depends what exactly you expect from an abstraction layer to do in the first place.
According to DM, the only abstraction layer that is "good enough" is one that makes your entire program look like it was coded for a single CPU (which means the Xenon won't even come close to satisfy his requirements either).

Whatever happens with PS3, DM will find a problem with it, so... :D
For the "nature" of the abstarction layer, i was thinkin to something close to what middlewares can provide, nothing such as a "virtual machine" but more a Strong OS/Api, nothing fancy or revolutionnary.

Fafalada said:
Although in some cases that might actually be nice to have as an option.

That's exactly what i was thinking, being able to go as close as possible to the metal is always good, especially for piece of hardware such as the consoles, that let rooms for improvement over the years.
Developers that are Time/money/capacity limited can stay behind the "layer", the others can try to push the hardware to its limits.

It appears that MS want XboxNext to be hardware independent, for a lot of reason (for example the Xbox 3 would have RC without problem, PC port will be easier then ever etc..).
On a Gamer point of view i don't really like this idea, it means that we may see only a little improvement on the tech side.
 
Vysez said:
It appears that MS want XboxNext to be hardware independent, for a lot of reason (for example the Xbox 3 would have RC without problem, PC port will be easier then ever etc..).
On a Gamer point of view i don't really like this idea, it means that we may see only a little improvement on the tech side.

No real evidence for this at all, in fact MS have made sure that this time developers will have access to all low-level infomation, which points to absolute control when needed.

Don't read too much into XNA...
 
nAo said:
Well..now we have even a more exotic name for the rasterizer part than the previous name Visualizer, but we still don't know a thing about it though
Yeah, the sheer possibilities from the unending stream of fancy names are soo exciting ;)
Actually I am more fond of Visualizer if I had to choose between the two names, although I can see how PR could have a field day with "Realizer"...

Browsing through patents some more, the APU debugging stuff is interesting enough - we may actually have debuggers from the start this time instead of waiting 2 years.

But my favourite patent so far is the one about overlays - for APU programs - the first to actually get me excited too.
- Two of the highlights for the lazy :p
a) automatic management for APU program uploads(although it should still be possible to do manually if situation requires it)
b) greatly relaxes limitations on APU program length - in theory there aren't any.
 
All this R&D only for a game console ?... mmm PS3 will be the troian horse for something bigger than a game console. Even MS left X86 in the dust , time gonna change.. my son will heard something about x86 only in the book ?
 
Vysez said:
nAo said:
Me is gonna kill Panajev :)

PLEASE..use english as board language, or use PM

Mais pourquoi veux-tu que l'on utilise l'anglais comme base commune, on ferait mieux de tous s’exprimer dans nos langues maternelles respectives, ce serait beaucoup plus simple à comprendre…

Ou peux être pas… :D

"El Pericoloso Sporgersi" since that's one of the only sentence i know in italian...let's try to keep the discussion in 'ye old fashionned english' eh eh

Usate il linguaggio che volete, sono Italiano e parlo francese e inglese

Utilisez quelconque langue, je suis italien et je parle francais et anglais


Use the language you want, I'm italian and I speak english and french :D
 
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