New ATI Board: ~2 Months
- Thread starter Dave Baumann
- Start date
Babel-17
Veteran
Ah, speculation! To some of us (myself included) it is both food and drink. 
I could see an "ultra" as being a feasible offering that wouldn't mortally offend loyal customers who've just run out to buy an R9800 Pro. Perhaps in a few months 2 ns memory will be more "ready for prime time" and in addition to the higher clocked core will represent the totality of any performance improvements.
The beauty with that is one could expect excellent out of the box drivers.
I'll be very impressed if ATI does garner significantly higher core speed with a respin. Impressed, but not very surprised at this point.
I could see an "ultra" as being a feasible offering that wouldn't mortally offend loyal customers who've just run out to buy an R9800 Pro. Perhaps in a few months 2 ns memory will be more "ready for prime time" and in addition to the higher clocked core will represent the totality of any performance improvements.
The beauty with that is one could expect excellent out of the box drivers.
I'll be very impressed if ATI does garner significantly higher core speed with a respin. Impressed, but not very surprised at this point.
How is this hype? As HB says, already shipping cards reach clock speeds that make such a beast common sense, and the proximity of release seems to disqualify that label.
I also don't understand at all why one would think it will be anything more than a higher clocked R350, especially with the wording being a "new board" not a "new chip". Really, more speed is all they need, and the headroom for the existing chip is already a known fact.
IMO, the only speculation that really remains (since the wording doesn't seem to leave room for that constant favorite speculative workhorse: the MAXX ), besides trying to simply nail down the core clock speed by guesses, is how and to what degree they are going to increase mem clock speed and bandwidth, and the design changes necessary to deliver that.
Hmm...though, I guess it is also interesting to wait to see professional benchmarks combining the impact of the FireGL drivers with the boosted clock speeds and the changes, if any, to the R350 vertex processing abilities from the R300, and then compare that to the NV3x (which at the moment is a better performing workstation card for straightforward high polygon count, I think...I've observed a bit of a vacuum as far as FireGL drivers on the R350 at its clock speeds).
I really have no idea of the profitability of that market segment, but I've been thinking that the recent professional driver certification announcements, this not-so-secret next card, and the apparent absence (as far as I've noticed) of R350 benchmarks with FireGL drivers (i.e., the absence of publicity about a FireGL based on the R350), indicate a certain convergence in this direction to me, and may be another factor in the delay of this new card design.
Hmm...plenty of fuel for speculation after all... @ myself for suggesting otherwise.
I also don't understand at all why one would think it will be anything more than a higher clocked R350, especially with the wording being a "new board" not a "new chip". Really, more speed is all they need, and the headroom for the existing chip is already a known fact.
IMO, the only speculation that really remains (since the wording doesn't seem to leave room for that constant favorite speculative workhorse: the MAXX
), besides trying to simply nail down the core clock speed by guesses, is how and to what degree they are going to increase mem clock speed and bandwidth, and the design changes necessary to deliver that.Hmm...though, I guess it is also interesting to wait to see professional benchmarks combining the impact of the FireGL drivers with the boosted clock speeds and the changes, if any, to the R350 vertex processing abilities from the R300, and then compare that to the NV3x (which at the moment is a better performing workstation card for straightforward high polygon count, I think...I've observed a bit of a vacuum as far as FireGL drivers on the R350 at its clock speeds).
I really have no idea of the profitability of that market segment, but I've been thinking that the recent professional driver certification announcements, this not-so-secret next card, and the apparent absence (as far as I've noticed) of R350 benchmarks with FireGL drivers (i.e., the absence of publicity about a FireGL based on the R350), indicate a certain convergence in this direction to me, and may be another factor in the delay of this new card design.
Hmm...plenty of fuel for speculation after all...
@ myself for suggesting otherwise. But the question is, does ATI really need to release a new card?
If so, why? Are they getting worried? Do they have a mole who shared some info?
Or - are they just trying to piss off their customer base? Heck, buy a 9700 Pro, then 3 to 6 months later a 9800 comes out. Now another 2 months go buy and yet another card? Sure, I'll sign up for that...
Nvidia has had some work cut out for them. IF the NV35 is fast, which it probably will, and if it is silent, and if the image quality is there, and lastly if AA/FSAA is there, kudos to them. They freaking earned it even if it is only 1% faster.
Honestly - if the card is good, and if ATI counters, neither company should feel ashamed.
If so, why? Are they getting worried? Do they have a mole who shared some info?
Or - are they just trying to piss off their customer base? Heck, buy a 9700 Pro, then 3 to 6 months later a 9800 comes out. Now another 2 months go buy and yet another card? Sure, I'll sign up for that...
Nvidia has had some work cut out for them. IF the NV35 is fast, which it probably will, and if it is silent, and if the image quality is there, and lastly if AA/FSAA is there, kudos to them. They freaking earned it even if it is only 1% faster.
Honestly - if the card is good, and if ATI counters, neither company should feel ashamed.
This is a wierd situation right now. First off we have the two major players saying that the gap between generations will increase from 6 to a massive 18 months. But we then have refreshes appearing every couple of months, exaggeration I know but still. It seems a particularly vicious fight @ the moment, instead of just tolerating each other and releasing cards that would sell they seem intent on annihilating each other.
But it's us who get caught in the cross fire, we have to shell out for new hardware because it's in our nature to have the best. Sugar is bad for us but we crave it and so spending £400 quid (that's a whole weeks holiday in Portugal, or Spain, or France etc) is alright because we have to have the best. Yet we are actually funding a proto-monopoly.
I reckon we should just give up on the PC for games and all go and spend that xxx on either holidays or consoles.
But it's us who get caught in the cross fire, we have to shell out for new hardware because it's in our nature to have the best. Sugar is bad for us but we crave it and so spending £400 quid (that's a whole weeks holiday in Portugal, or Spain, or France etc) is alright because we have to have the best. Yet we are actually funding a proto-monopoly.
I reckon we should just give up on the PC for games and all go and spend that xxx on either holidays or consoles.
Oh, didn't include my guesses:
Core clock: 5900 Ultra core clock speed. This because the 9800 seems to easily achieve the (recently) rumored NV35 clock speeds. I suppose a "FXFlow" NV35 might reach 500, but I think nVidia is avoiding that atleast for a while, and that bandwidth is their big emphasis.
Mem clock: 5900 Ultra mem clock speed. I really have no idea what they're achieving with a new board design, and I'd depend on some inside info for some indications of what would limit this.
Really ambitious and creative guesses, eh?
If they are finally targetting nVidia pricing parity (i.e., not so good price/performance ratio, but good price/ego boosting ratio) for this part based on recent recognition for their cards, they might even overshoot the above to help with the "numbers" game, again if their design allows.
If they are sticking to past strategy, they might undershoot the above clock speeds, targetting real performance parity and a more economical (i.e., profitable for greater price range) part to shift units more than name recognition.
Hmm...I don't know where the mixture of the two approaches will fall out at the end (they could achieve both goals simultaneously), as that will be determined by the NV35 clock speeds, performance, and what it is realistic for the new card design to accomplish in relation to that.
As for naming...they're in a unique bind with numbers, or else 9900 would be the natural fit, but I'm assuming Loci won't mark a change in naming scheme. 9800 "new suffix" might work ("Ultra Pro", "Pro XL", "Fury"?). So could 9900 with no suffix if Loci will just replace this and add a "Pro" model. with even higher clock speeds (or is an ambitious MAXX product <- I love guessing this, can you tell? )
Name: My guess, based on Loci not heralding a naming scheme change or being a MAXX, is "9800 Pro Fury" or something similar.
Core clock: 5900 Ultra core clock speed. This because the 9800 seems to easily achieve the (recently) rumored NV35 clock speeds. I suppose a "FXFlow" NV35 might reach 500, but I think nVidia is avoiding that atleast for a while, and that bandwidth is their big emphasis.
Mem clock: 5900 Ultra mem clock speed. I really have no idea what they're achieving with a new board design, and I'd depend on some inside info for some indications of what would limit this.
Really ambitious and creative guesses, eh?
If they are finally targetting nVidia pricing parity (i.e., not so good price/performance ratio, but good price/ego boosting ratio) for this part based on recent recognition for their cards, they might even overshoot the above to help with the "numbers" game, again if their design allows.
If they are sticking to past strategy, they might undershoot the above clock speeds, targetting real performance parity and a more economical (i.e., profitable for greater price range) part to shift units more than name recognition.
Hmm...I don't know where the mixture of the two approaches will fall out at the end (they could achieve both goals simultaneously), as that will be determined by the NV35 clock speeds, performance, and what it is realistic for the new card design to accomplish in relation to that.
As for naming...they're in a unique bind with numbers, or else 9900 would be the natural fit, but I'm assuming Loci won't mark a change in naming scheme. 9800 "new suffix" might work ("Ultra Pro", "Pro XL", "Fury"?). So could 9900 with no suffix if Loci will just replace this and add a "Pro" model. with even higher clock speeds (or is an ambitious MAXX product
<- I love guessing this, can you tell? )Name: My guess, based on Loci not heralding a naming scheme change or being a MAXX, is "9800 Pro Fury" or something similar.
Babel-17 said:
They're already "onboard"
on PowerColor's 9800 Pro:
VR-Zone wrote it: PowerColor Radeon 9800 Pro uses the special Hynix HY5DU283222AF memory chips in 144ball FBGA form factor with 2ns access time that corresponds to 500Mhz effective! This is the highest clocked DDR-I SDRAM and probably the most expensive of all. These 2ns memory chips requires 2.8V VDD and 2.8V VDDQ power supply. Through a voltmeter check, PowerColor has set to VDDQ corresponds to the reference Radeon 9800 Pro card which is 2.68V so it is actually supply lower VDDQ to the memory chips and the VDD is at 2.94V. The memory chips do get hot after some time so some RAM sinks will be most recommended.
This means they're 100% ready... 8)
Source: http://www.vr-zone.com/reviews/PowerColor/9800Pro/page2.htm
borntosoul
Regular
BoardBonobo said:
with refreshes, why cant gpu's do what cpu's have been doing for ages? no one is forcing anyone to upgrade the CHOICE is to the individual, spending is what makes economies thrive so YES youre right you can always take a holiday rather than spending on a new nv35
There's no announcement, an information coming from nowhere by a someone with some reputation (AKA Dave), 2 month before what? an annoucement?, for a card which could be an 9800 super-pro or a 9600 super-pro, some days before the announcement of the NV35, but because it's not Nvidia it's not Hype.
Well, ok, if you say so.
Well, ok, if you say so
.T2k said:They're already "onboard"
This means they're 100% ready... 8)
Source: http://www.vr-zone.com/reviews/PowerColor/9800Pro/page2.htm
Pity they only got it to 400Mhz, undervolted or something isn't it?
saf1 said:
dont be a fool, you dont have to sign up to anything. Refeshes and speed bumps are part and parcel the tech industry in general. No one has to go out and buy the latest refresh, especially if they are already at a 9700+ card.
Oh ATI/nVidia dont progress technology in case may card gets replaced by something better
.In an off topic comment.... I got my 9800 yesterday...... and it only does 420/360..
Hey Mikey....I think he likes it!!!!
So, what's the big deal? ATI had already alluded to coming out with a 256 meg memory (DDrII?) with a higher clock. It's going to be more expensive (499.00??) than the 9800, and will not replace it. Am I unhappy about this... NO! It will go head to head with the NV35 high end model, probably beat it by a pretty good margin! (hence the one smoking drugs is NOT ATI! ) I don't think ATI will piss any customers off, at all. Unlike another company that announces new cards within weeks - or even days - of releasing their "new" gen products after "hyping" them for months, then not delivering on that hype! I think I'd be a bit upset IF I had bought a FX5800 of any kind!
Hey Mikey....I think he likes it!!!!
So, what's the big deal? ATI had already alluded to coming out with a 256 meg memory (DDrII?) with a higher clock. It's going to be more expensive (499.00??) than the 9800, and will not replace it. Am I unhappy about this... NO! It will go head to head with the NV35 high end model, probably beat it by a pretty good margin! (hence the one smoking drugs is NOT ATI!
) I don't think ATI will piss any customers off, at all. Unlike another company that announces new cards within weeks - or even days - of releasing their "new" gen products after "hyping" them for months, then not delivering on that hype! I think I'd be a bit upset IF I had bought a FX5800 of any kind!BTW... talk about raining on someone's parade........
http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2003/4644.html
http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2003/4644.html
demalion said:
I think they're going to be a bit naughty now and market Loci as a next generation product. They will have to in order to compete in the BS stakes with the nVidia Jit-Pong 68000 Uber-destroyer GTI, or whatever they decide to call NV40. I honestly don't think ATi realised it was coming so soon. Of course, it would be *nice* to oust it with a rehash of "old" technology, but that won't hold much weight with Joe PCWorld.
I don't think they'll call it "9900" either, because if Loci is the "9900 Pro", the performance delta is going to be too extreme to justify just the addition of a "Pro" suffix. Im sure it'll be the "9900 Pro" - that makes the most sense considering it is up against the "5900 Ultra".
It'd be nice not to care at all about the names of these things.
martrox said:
:?
MuFu.
Unknown Soldier
Veteran
First, I would expect Dave who has access to future Futuremark products would also get info on future hardware products that your lovely graphics manufactures without him falling under a NDA for those products.
Second, didn't The Register/Inquirer say the the 9900 Pro would be the 256mb version of the 9800 Pro with maybe DDR2 included?? I thought I read that somewhere just before the Announcement of the 9800 Pro. So no I wouldn't expect ATI'ers to be unhappy with ATI for releasing the 9900Pro which might include a Speed bump if they can.
The NV35 benchmarks look sweet, but do I have to remind everyone that the NV30 benchmarks looked sweet too(and there were rumours that it would even hit 22000 on 3DMark2001). So I guess we'll have to wait for real benchmarks from sites including B3D(can't wait).
While I feel Nvidia let us down with the NV30's rumours, I hope they've learnt there lesson and actually give us a card that will compete with ATi.
BTW, which ever card is the best will get my vote and money(new games coming along nicely HL2 and DOOm3).
Second, didn't The Register/Inquirer say the the 9900 Pro would be the 256mb version of the 9800 Pro with maybe DDR2 included?? I thought I read that somewhere just before the Announcement of the 9800 Pro. So no I wouldn't expect ATI'ers to be unhappy with ATI for releasing the 9900Pro which might include a Speed bump if they can.
The NV35 benchmarks look sweet, but do I have to remind everyone that the NV30 benchmarks looked sweet too(and there were rumours that it would even hit 22000 on 3DMark2001). So I guess we'll have to wait for real benchmarks from sites including B3D(can't wait).
While I feel Nvidia let us down with the NV30's rumours, I hope they've learnt there lesson and actually give us a card that will compete with ATi.
BTW, which ever card is the best will get my vote and money(new games coming along nicely HL2 and DOOm3).
Since ATI doesn't have a high end 256mb card yet it seems something is sure cooking there. Now does ATI speed bump up the R350 core? I guess that depends on the competition. A small voltage increase, better cooling, more and faster ram and you could have a rather fast card without to much investment. In other words I don't think ATI has to much to worry about in what Nvidia has with the Nvidia 35 except that it might put Nvidia in the playing field with ATI. I am sure ATI has also investigated the .13micron option as well and that could be a possiblity if economically beneficial and the process is refined enough. I think right now programming for these rather powerful cards is what is holding us back significantly.
Randell said:saf1 said:
dont be a fool, you dont have to sign up to anything. Refeshes and speed bumps are part and parcel the tech industry in general. No one has to go out and buy the latest refresh, especially if they are already at a 9700+ card.
Oh ATI/nVidia dont progress technology in case may card gets replaced by something better
Watch the fool comment there Randell - I never said I'd rush out and go buy the damn thing.
Technology progress - wow, there is a lot of progress between the R300 and R350. Rightttt... /boggle
So lets ask this since you state noone "needs" to buy the latest refresh especially if they already have a 9700 series. Who exaclty is the target market?
ATI does not have the cash to play a cold war GPU game. Invest in better driver technology, future products. Let the current cards get some market share, and stay on the long term plan.
♪Anode
Newcomer
MuFu said:demalion said:
I think they're going to be a bit naughty now and market Loci as a next generation product. They will have to in order to compete in the BS stakes with the nVidia Jit-Pong 68000 Uber-destroyer GTI, or whatever they decide to call NV40. I honestly don't think ATi realised it was coming so soon. Of course, it would be *nice* to oust it with a rehash of "old" technology, but that won't hold much weight with Joe PCWorld.
I don't think they'll call it "9900" either, because if Loci is the "9900 Pro", the performance delta is going to be too extreme to justify just the addition of a "Pro" suffix. Im sure it'll be the "9900 Pro" - that makes the most sense considering it is up against the "5900 Ultra".
It'd be nice not to care at all about the names of these things.
martrox said:
:?
MuFu.
What makes you think NVidia will be bsing around for the next generation of chips. I think they learned their lesson with the nv3x one and you got as much of an admission as you could get from their CEO about it. Of course they will have to spin some BS to keep their current nv3x generation alive till they have something very real to get competitive. There is not one company out there which on finding that its produced something subpar compared to its competition will say "Oh God. This thing sucks. Lets kill it now and not sell it till we get to our next big thing and tell all the people about it and lose whatever money we would have made by not selling this to the people who would have bought it...".
I have only seen ATI say it. Not nvidia...AFAIK nvidia are still sticking with their cycle.
Also the MAXX product will be at most a dual 9600 solution. The dual 9800 one will be a bit too expensive and for only winning the performance benchs.
You people should have a little patience
. When ATI found out that the R200 was a dud they couldnt beat nvidia on that generation. The one which trounced them though was the 300. You get the picture Similar threads
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