MS vs Sony Strategy - all in one vs. mix n' match

[heliosphere]

I've been thinking about all the debates over which console is better 'value' - ultimately a somewhat futile debate since perceived value is subjective and based on what an individual views as important - and it occurred to me that there's really a fundamental difference in strategy between MS and Sony with the 360 and the PS3.

Sony's strategy seems to be the all in one multi-function device route. It's the world's most powerful games console! It's a bluray player! It's a media PC! Online gaming is free! Browse the web! Run Linux! But it's pretty much an all or nothing deal - the only meaningful difference between the two PS3 SKUs now is the size of the hard drive and the wi-fi support, (the card reader on the premium adds a bit to the media PC value but supposedly it works with standard USB card readers which are dead cheap). If you're not interested in bluray you have to pay for it. If you already have a media PC and just want a games machine you're paying for functionality you don't need (if not directly in hardware costs then in the opportunity cost of Sony focusing effort on those areas at the expense of gaming). However, if you are interested in all the functionality that the PS3 has to offer and don't feel the need for additional functionality above and beyond what it offers then it represents pretty good value due to the economies of scale that Sony can bring to bear (not to mention that they're subsidising the hardware at the moment).

By contrast MS is taking a much more mix and match approach. The core 360 really is just a pretty bare bones gaming machine. If you want HD-DVD support you can have it but you'll have to pay extra. If you want to be able to download media and demos you'll need to pay extra (for the hard drive). If you want wireless networking it'll cost ya. If you want online gaming there's a subscription. If you want media PC functionality then you'll need a PC and media extender to go along with the 360. If you want to browse the web, send emails, run a real OS and PC applications then go ahead and buy a PC (and MS will happily sell you Windows and Office to go with it). The premium package bundles a popular subset of the extra functionality for a lower additional cost than buying everything independently but it still doesn't do everything. The advantage to the consumer is that they only pay for the functionality they want, and if that's a smallish subset then it's going to cost a lot less than the PS3. The disadvantage is that if they want all the functionality and don't already own a PC it's going to cost a lot more than a PS3.

The big question is which strategy is going to appeal to the mass market more? All the debate here is between the hardcore who probably want all the functionality but already have some of it. For me the 360 seems better value - I already have two PCs in my apartment and a Mac Mini hooked up to the TV so I'm covered for web browsing, internet downloads and PC functionality. I can already browse the web and send email from my TV if I want to (I almost never do). What the 360 gives me is great console gaming and a good media extender for streaming media from my PC to the TV. When I bought it at launch I wasn't much interested in HD movies but I picked up the HD-DVD drive recently as much out of curiosity as anything. I subscribe to Xbox Live! Gold but I'm not a huge online gamer. It costs me less per month than I pay for a couple of premium channels on cable though so I don't really think about the cost too much - the fact that I might end up paying $200+ over a few years is much less of an issue than paying that $200 up front would be. For other people here the PS3 is a better fit to what they want. I've no interest in running Linux on a console hooked up to my PC but I kind of understand the geek appeal of it - I bought a Mac Mini largely for the novelty of having a computer with a different architecture and different OS kicking around. For me the novelty appeal of the hardware is less because I was working with the PS3 and 360 devkits for months and years respectively so the novelty has worn off.

Once the console wars move beyond the hardcore though which strategy is going to appeal to the mass market? I'm inclined to think the 360, assuming (as I think is likely) that it maintains the price advantage for some time to come. In a couple of years the novelty of HD movies will be wearing off - they'll either be selling combined players made in China for $50 in Walmart or the whole thing will fizzle out as VoD takes off. The PS3 will be outclassed as a PC substitute by an actual PC of comparable cost due to the inevitable march of PC tech. MS will be able to sell a Core system for people who only care about games at a knockdown price and all the PS3 tech which seemed so next gen will have lost it's lustre but the hard disk will probably still be making it hard for Sony to compete on price with MS (as MS found out to their cost with the Xbox).

 

[inefficient]

The PS3 will be outclassed as a PC substitute by an actual PC of comparable cost due to the inevitable march of PC tech.

As purely an entertainment device, if we look at last gen we would see that the PC never really got competive the PS2 in the price/performance dept. Try building a $130 PC today that can play DVDs and games like GTA3:San Andreas.

Also how much more computing power do mainstream users need. I think this is something "actual PC" makers have to come to grips with in the coming years. For the mainstream who just want to surf the web, send email, watch video, play music, sync portable devices, the PS3 has plently of computing power.

 

[heliosphere]

As purely an entertainment device, if we look at last gen we would see that the PC never really got competive the PS2 in the price/performance dept. Try building a $130 PC today that can play DVDs and games like GTA3:San Andreas.

I didn't say anything about it's value as a pure entertainment device. I said it will be outclassed as a PC substitute by an actual PC of comparable cost. Look what you can get right now from Dell for $649: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DDCWAA3&s=dhs:

Pentium® D Processor 820 with Dual Core Technology (2.80GHz, 800FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 Edition
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16x DVD+/-RW Drive
19 inch E197FP Analog Flat Panel
Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3000
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio

That's including a 19" LCD, a DVD burner and 100GB more hard disk space than the PS3 and it's only $50 more. As a PC it's already more capable than a PS3. It can't do games or bluray but if you're looking to browse the web, use office applications, run Linux, store a load of media or any other traditional PC functionality it'll do a much better job than a PS3. Dell have cheaper PCs and if what you want is PC functionality you'll always be better off with a cheap PC than a PS3. The PS3 is better only if you want minimal bare bones PC functionality together with games and bluray playback in one device.

 

[Kryton]

Heliosphere, your argument works for the 360 too (a PC is a better value proposition, if you want something that can do everything). The 360s fragmentation of the user base is worrying because, like PCs, developers must always develop to the base line. Want fast HD content streaming, sorry can't do it because Bob doesn't own a HD. Want HD movie content in your game and run out of disk space, sorry use several DVDs because Jane doesn't have the HD DVD add-on. Want a game with free multiplayer, sorry you must provide it through XBL subscriptions.

Edit: Please lock this thread OR get it back on topic, it'll turn into the PC vs. console shit fest.

 

[heliosphere]

Heliosphere, your argument works for the 360 too (a PC is a better value proposition, if you want something that can do everything).

Unlike the PS3 the 360 has no pretensions to being a PC substitute.

 

[patsu]

Historically and by logic, the specialized machine usually win because people put in more care and time to solve every little problem in that area, and it can be cheaper.

Ultimately, it really comes down to execution. For example, in the mix-and-match model, you still have to be careful about the different permutation of parts (especially with more revisions of hardware along the way). So it may be a mess in the end, like how Xbox 360 firmware upgrade can brick hardware.

But in the all-in-one model, you have problems in marketing it in the first place (due to higher price and confusing message). Fortunately, marketing and manufacturing are something Sony is (supposed to be) strong at. Unfortunately, Sony is getting dirt in their face right this moment because *rant mode on* the Playstation team can't seem to run their day-to-day business and operations properly. *rant mode off* (It's kinda like watching a movie with bad actors).

 

[Paul_G]

I've already said in another thread that my opinion is the mix and match model is the way to go. My basic reasoning for this is cost. While Kryton is right that you're straying off topic, the PC does have some parallels. Look at how many decent PCs get sold compared to the cheap £400 Dells. Casuals don't care about extra features and more power, they know they need a PC, this £400 box of crap is a PC, therefore it must be fine for their needs. Of course we know that's a stupid attitude to take, but the same applies to consoles.

Most people, at least until PS3 hits $300/£200 or less, are going to see that price tag and balk at it. It doesn't matter if they're getting a bargain, because many of them can't see the potential, the price is just too much of a stumbling block. I suppose the 360 is like a microcosm of the whole home entertainment system setup. How many people have a DVD writer/VHS/HDD box? They do exist, but i'd imagine the answer is: Not many. Casuals see a $50 DVD player and they buy it. They're told they need a DVD writer, they buy it, they need a TIVO or HDD box, they buy it. In total, the cost is likely higher than an all in one, but because each purchase was at a different time, it doesn't matter so much.

 

[wco81]

First of all, it isn't a strategy to haphazardly bolt on HD-DVD functionality after the fact. It's just a kludge.

If they intended to offer expandability in the future, they would have made the drive easily swappable by the user, so you don't have to have this ugly dongle with its own power brick.

Oh and they would have put in HDMI from the beginning.

Obviously, they thought they didn't need HD-DVD when the console was designed.

Their real strategy is to get more people to buy Media Center PCs to complement the X360. That way, they sell you two products instead of one, with the second one carrying real high margins.

Oh and that $649 Dell uses real old CPU, which probably wouldn't do well trying to decode 1080p files. And it would be noisy and cumbersome to have in the living room. That has been the obstacle to getting PCs into the living room.

 

[Gollum]

Very good post. I agree with many points you made. The PS3 indeed has a pretty good value if you look at all the things it can potentially do. Question is, how many people atually want and are willing pay for that extra functionallity?

In the minds of the consumer, the PS3 is still a games machine and in that regard and function, it really doesn't offer much more value than a 360 to a consumer. That's why many casual gamers, parents who want a console for their kids and regular folks will IMO go "WTF?!", when they head to the store to buy "that new Playstation that's supposed to be out" and see the price tag for the first time. Try telling them "but you can use it to browse the internet and install Linux", they'll say "what's Linux? And I have my Dell for the internet! I just wanna play some games!"... well you're screwed dude, you'll either have to shell out those extra 200$ for functionality you don't want, or get a different console...

I have enormous doubts the PS3 is gonna gain much momentum as a PC substitude and despite all its capabilities, there are good reasons for that. It still is a pretty much fixed down in its functionallity and can't satisfy all needs, wheras the PCs main attraction has always been the flexibility and customizability to individual tastes. Linux is fine, but still mainly suited to hardcore PC nuts. I don't see average Joe getting into the intricacies of open source and Linux any more than on PC the past 10 years. Also, can you burn CDs or DVDs on PS3? Can you add a TV card and do video editing? Maybe sometime with half a dozen adapters and workarounds, but not today. There's so much specialized hardware for hundreds of different needs available for PC, the PS3 can't even offer a fraction of the potential and upgradability a simple 500$ PC offers.

Add to that, that most people's home TV setup is not ideally suited to perform tasks like surfing, writing emails or actually doing some work on the PC anyway. The PS3 is gonna be hooked up to living room TVs in 95% of households, with the couch being like 3-5 meters away from the screen, how are you supposed to do any serious PC stuff in that setup? You'd not only have to get a cordless keboard and mouse, you'd have to find a good place to actually put it down in a position that's gonna remain comfortable for an extended period of time, without doing damage to your spine (IMO just not gonna happen in a living room, you need a good desk for that). It's also not exactly going to be relaxing to read long texts or do anything that requires much mouse input over such a large distance, it just doesn't feel right. Visibility and readability is going to be a major issueI'm not even gonna get into.

So some folks might say, "this is such an awesome machine, I'm gonna run Linux and replace my desktop PC" and set it up in their home-office. Great, that way its lost most of its attraction as a living-room gaming device in one stroke. To me the whole Linux, PC replacement deal is not much more than a gimick. A useless one at that and one that most people will just ignore, just like they ignored Linux for PS2. I really don't see this strategy working for the mainstream market. The PS3 will have to be judged mainly as a gaming console and in that regard, the 360 and Wii currently are in more attractive positions IMO.

The brand recognition is still very strong, so its not like Sony is standing on lost ground or anything. But I'm having severe doubts that Sony's strategy with PS3 is gonna sit with the common folks as well as they hope. I just don't think all that stuff they packed into the PS3 is actually something most consumers care about...

If you want media PC functionality then you'll need a PC and media extender to go along with the 360.

Not neccessarily true. You can watch videos from discs and usb devices after the latest update. You'll need a PC to encode them if they're the wrong format, but then again that also holds true for the PS3...

 

[KOF]

It all depends on how important are the features the consumers perceive.

Me, I consider SACD and Dolby True HD output quite important so those two alone ups 360 and PC in my case.

 

[London Geezer]

I wish i had time to reply properly. This is a good thread with lots of great points and lots of misconceptions.. Maybe later.

 

[inefficient]

I suppose a bit of Microsoft's "mix n' match" advantage will go out the door once there are Linux drivers that allow their HD-DVD player to be used with the PS3.

It's only a matter of time!

 

[blakjedi]

Although I understand the point of this thread and respect the arguments, bluray is extra, built in wifi is extra, HDMI is extra etc etc and they are all nice things to have. However, pound for pound in terms of GAMES right now the 360 has no match. And when "casuals" (which I now am) walk into a game store to buy a console that is their primary priority.

 

[22psi]

Which will get the mass market depends on the amount of AAA and AA games and which console will hit 199 first.

 

[Pozer]

I think MS' strategy is better from 2005 - 2008. Sony's strategy will prove better from 2008-2010 as costs are reduced. problem is 2005-2008 is more important to the console war. Genesis VS SNes is back baby.

 

[freaqboy]

OK, I'm going to jump in and say, stop the strawman arguments, they're rather frustrating. First of all, nobody's going to 'replace their desktop PC with a PS3 to do video editing'. Nobody's going to buy a PS3 instead of a PC and complain they can't burn DVDs. But I have to say, for anyone who likes playing with computers (which I admit, isn't the majority,) the PS3 is the f*** BEST GAME MACHINE IN HISTORY.

I loves me my classic games, which is why I have almost every game system in history and a collection of cartridges big enough to warrant weekly ultimatums from the wife to 'clear out the garage or else'. (Strangely, she never tells me the 'else'.) It's a pain to operate all these systems, so I have a PC downstairs running a world of emulators and every game I own. With a PS3, I just install Linux and move everything on that system over to my PS3, cleaning out my setup and removing my big clunky desktop. Suddenly, the PS3 is capable of not only playing PS2 and PS1 games, but NES, SNES, GENESIS, MASTER SYSTEM, NEO-GEO, MAME, etc.
This is why most people I know bought XBoxes back in the day, but they had to crack the system. Now, Sony is supporting it free. The XBox-360 can't, and never will, be able to do that. Tell me how that's a win for Microsoft.

Second of all, development for the PS3 is going to be FREE AND EASY! Nothing else to buy other than a USB keyboard (which I already own a ton), so I'm already working on some PS3 apps such as an emulator frontend, and I'm probably going to port some of the old games I wrote to the PS3. They're hardly high art, but homebrew on this system is going to be HUGE. Tell me how that's a win for Microsoft.

Third, the support you get with the PS3 and PSP is outstanding, fully eclipsing any other console or handheld ever. (Well, you may argue that game boy library compatibility is better than access to the PS1 library, so good for you. Have fun with Super Mario. ) The only thing lacking on the PSP right now is Homebrew, but it's understandable why they don't support it (piracy) and the PS3 homebrew support helps alleviate the pain.

And yes, if you don't have a PC already, you have a ton of word processors and USB printers that will handle the kind of tasks the average person does (like answering email, surfing, writing resumes) perfectly as long as you have a HDTV. (Anyone who thinks an HDTV isn't fully useable as a computer monitor, even across the room, has either never experienced it or is being dishonest. My old downstairs PC hooked up to a 1080P TV is used more than the workstation in my office.) The XBox can't and won't and never will, but this isn't a gaming feature so it really doesn't have much of a place in my arguments.

Now, let's answer the straw-man arguments before they happen : 'Most people don't have an HDTV.' Well, then they're not going to get the advantages of the 360 so they might as well get a Wii. But seriously, HDTVs are so cheap that by the second year of the console's life I'd be surprised if 20% of users DON'T have one. And those people don't use computers or internet either, so no loss there.

'But you can do that on a PC'; yeah, but with a PS3, you don't have to. And last time I checked, a $400 game system + $700 PC is still cheaper than a $600 game system. (Let's ignore the fact that the $700 PC sucks rocks as well.

'But it's a games machine!' Yeah? And last time I checked, NHL 94 on the Genesis was a game (Best hockey game ever, in my opinion.) If I can play it on my PS3, guess what? It's just one more thing that I can do on that system that can't be done on any others. (Well, they may add it to arcade, but I've already bought the game once and if I don't have to buy my whole collection again, that's a big win.)

Throw on top of that the fact that I get a free HD player (Not a bad proposition considering it's an extra $200 on the 360 and apparently the support and image quality there leaves a lot to be desired) and a system that plays a lot of next-generation games (Occasionally a studio still manages to come out with something decent and new), plus has support for motion-sensing controllers (Gimmick or not, it's STILL something else that the 360 doesn't have; even if developers don't have any ideas how to make it work, I have a few that I can develop into my own little free games), I'm really excited to get my hands on one.

Final argument : Software can be upgraded, hardware can't. The 360, as far as I can see, is running into hardware constraints (No next-gen HD player, no hard drive standard) as well as business constraints (Microsoft as it's owner, and it's never going to allow a non-MS operating system to be installed on its system.) All of the complaints about the PS3 so far have been almost entirely software (No background downloading, etc) ie things that can be FIXED. The PSP today is 10x the system it was when it was released because they took the same approach; if it's not hardware limited, it can be done in software. Now, people can argue that RIGHT NOW, the XBox has better support for this and that, but the point is, Sony can catch up to MS in every single one of those departments (Cuz they're software.) However, MS can NEVER catch up to Sony in some of the departments they're better on (HD disc support, multi-OS support, Hard disk support, peripherals and memory stick support.) You can say, "Right now this is the better system", but you aren't buying a system for right now... you're buying a system for the lifetime of the system. Now, seeing how much Sony has improved on the PSP, does anyone really think they're not going to put the same kind of effort into the PS3? Especially when every linux developer on the planet is working on applications that can be run on the system? All I can say is, I'm looking forward to many years of a hell of a lot of gaming fun on this console, and I'm sure when I get mine it's going to get a hell of a lot of use doing a lot of things the 360 is incapable of. The rest of you can enjoy talking about the 'lowest common denominator' and talking about whether or not Jane's TV set is Hi-def. I know which system has a HELL of a lot more value to anyone who can type on a keyboard, which I think is most people on this site.

Thanks for reading.

 

[blakjedi]

Suddenly, the PS3 is capable of not only playing PS2 and PS1 games, but NES, SNES, GENESIS, MASTER SYSTEM, NEO-GEO, MAME, etc.Now, Sony is supporting it free. The XBox-360 can't, and never will, be able to do that. Tell me how that's a win for Microsoft.

Second of all, development for the PS3 is going to be FREE AND EASY! Nothing else to buy other than a USB keyboard (which I already own a ton), so I'm already working on some PS3 apps such as an emulator frontend, and I'm probably going to port some of the old games I wrote to the PS3. They're hardly high art, but homebrew on this system is going to be HUGE. Tell me how that's a win for Microsoft.

Freaqboy I think you made a nice attempt at a sane, deliberate listing potential PS3 strengths. However I think your "wins" are strawmen in and of themselves.

Lets start with your games/emulation discussion.

Xbox360 has Xbox Live and Live Arcade - The back catalog of ald games is huge and growing. You can play and be NETWORKED over live to play with others and be ranked with a uniform, unified leaderboard worldwide with other folks. Your MAME hack cant do that and NEVER will. Sony might do that but MS DOES IT NOW.

In addition, The software companies in partnership with MS not only get to update/upgrade the social aspects of their old games they can choose to update the game however they see fit just for XBLA wherre you will always play just the same old game.

Finally, They can get a revenue stream from through this model which is consistent with the effort to host on XBLA. Thats pretty good for MS, and the publisher also.

Second, the same people who modded the xbox to do your type of hack will enjoy thay capability on PS3 but they are really an insignificant part of the market... in other words, 99% of people could care less that you could pull off that hack and NEVER WILL. I can BC my xbox 1 games and now its looking like atari 2600 games, NES, SNES, Genesis and maybe eventually Saturn, Dreamcast and Neo Geo games too if they are so inclined. Heck out side of first party PS games whats to keep publishers from publishing other titles? That strawman is dead now too.

Third HD-DVD and HDD are available for those who want them. HW strawman dead there too...

Fourth, Word processing on you PS3 sounds utterly ridiculous. At this stage most people who are buying a next gen console already have either laptop or desktop (which is how they got their information about the next gen most likely) and already have word processing software better than anything to be available on PS3... so your 1100 strawman is dead there too. You are only looking at the cost of a 360 which is $399.

Let see...

Homebrew - Great idea. MS sells the homebrew XBLA dev kit for $99 dont know what kind of support that equals but I am eager to see whether X360 homebrew will go over easier than PS3 homebrew. PS3 is difficult to program for professional teams of coders... Good luck though... ans Sony isnt so much supporting homebrew "free" as Linux is pretty much open Source and they dont have a PS3 distro they can charge for... Are you getting a devkit to create games from Sony somewhere because that would be the first I heard of that... in fact for teh most part RSX isnt even exposed in any of the Linux variants that are supposed to work on PS3 so exactly what are you "brewing" to? The Cell?

Motion sensing meet Rumble/FF...

Please stop while you are ahead.

 

[assen]

Second of all, development for the PS3 is going to be FREE AND EASY! Nothing else to buy other than a USB keyboard (which I already own a ton), so I'm already working on some PS3 apps such as an emulator frontend, and I'm probably going to port some of the old games I wrote to the PS3.

Hell yeah, free and easy. Tell that to the Rainbow Six team at Ubisoft - what a bunch of losers. Delaying their PS3 version instead of whipping up freely and easily some REAL SOFTWARE, like an... emulator frontend - a minor improvement on top of an emulator other people wrote, which, in turn, is something to allow you to play games other people wrote.

 

[dobwal]

OK, I'm going to jump in and say, stop the strawman arguments, they're rather frustrating. First of all, nobody's going to 'replace their desktop PC with a PS3 to do video editing'. Nobody's going to buy a PS3 instead of a PC and complain they can't burn DVDs. But I have to say, for anyone who likes playing with computers (which I admit, isn't the majority,) the PS3 is the f*** BEST GAME MACHINE IN HISTORY.

I loves me my classic games, which is why I have almost every game system in history and a collection of cartridges big enough to warrant weekly ultimatums from the wife to 'clear out the garage or else'. (Strangely, she never tells me the 'else'.) It's a pain to operate all these systems, so I have a PC downstairs running a world of emulators and every game I own. With a PS3, I just install Linux and move everything on that system over to my PS3, cleaning out my setup and removing my big clunky desktop. Suddenly, the PS3 is capable of not only playing PS2 and PS1 games, but NES, SNES, GENESIS, MASTER SYSTEM, NEO-GEO, MAME, etc.
This is why most people I know bought XBoxes back in the day, but they had to crack the system. Now, Sony is supporting it free. The XBox-360 can't, and never will, be able to do that. Tell me how that's a win for Microsoft.

Second of all, development for the PS3 is going to be FREE AND EASY! Nothing else to buy other than a USB keyboard (which I already own a ton), so I'm already working on some PS3 apps such as an emulator frontend, and I'm probably going to port some of the old games I wrote to the PS3. They're hardly high art, but homebrew on this system is going to be HUGE. Tell me how that's a win for Microsoft.

Third, the support you get with the PS3 and PSP is outstanding, fully eclipsing any other console or handheld ever. (Well, you may argue that game boy library compatibility is better than access to the PS1 library, so good for you. Have fun with Super Mario. ) The only thing lacking on the PSP right now is Homebrew, but it's understandable why they don't support it (piracy) and the PS3 homebrew support helps alleviate the pain.

And yes, if you don't have a PC already, you have a ton of word processors and USB printers that will handle the kind of tasks the average person does (like answering email, surfing, writing resumes) perfectly as long as you have a HDTV. (Anyone who thinks an HDTV isn't fully useable as a computer monitor, even across the room, has either never experienced it or is being dishonest. My old downstairs PC hooked up to a 1080P TV is used more than the workstation in my office.) The XBox can't and won't and never will, but this isn't a gaming feature so it really doesn't have much of a place in my arguments.

Now, let's answer the straw-man arguments before they happen : 'Most people don't have an HDTV.' Well, then they're not going to get the advantages of the 360 so they might as well get a Wii. But seriously, HDTVs are so cheap that by the second year of the console's life I'd be surprised if 20% of users DON'T have one. And those people don't use computers or internet either, so no loss there.

'But you can do that on a PC'; yeah, but with a PS3, you don't have to. And last time I checked, a $400 game system + $700 PC is still cheaper than a $600 game system. (Let's ignore the fact that the $700 PC sucks rocks as well.

'But it's a games machine!' Yeah? And last time I checked, NHL 94 on the Genesis was a game (Best hockey game ever, in my opinion.) If I can play it on my PS3, guess what? It's just one more thing that I can do on that system that can't be done on any others. (Well, they may add it to arcade, but I've already bought the game once and if I don't have to buy my whole collection again, that's a big win.)

Throw on top of that the fact that I get a free HD player (Not a bad proposition considering it's an extra $200 on the 360 and apparently the support and image quality there leaves a lot to be desired) and a system that plays a lot of next-generation games (Occasionally a studio still manages to come out with something decent and new), plus has support for motion-sensing controllers (Gimmick or not, it's STILL something else that the 360 doesn't have; even if developers don't have any ideas how to make it work, I have a few that I can develop into my own little free games), I'm really excited to get my hands on one.

Final argument : Software can be upgraded, hardware can't. The 360, as far as I can see, is running into hardware constraints (No next-gen HD player, no hard drive standard) as well as business constraints (Microsoft as it's owner, and it's never going to allow a non-MS operating system to be installed on its system.) All of the complaints about the PS3 so far have been almost entirely software (No background downloading, etc) ie things that can be FIXED. The PSP today is 10x the system it was when it was released because they took the same approach; if it's not hardware limited, it can be done in software. Now, people can argue that RIGHT NOW, the XBox has better support for this and that, but the point is, Sony can catch up to MS in every single one of those departments (Cuz they're software.) However, MS can NEVER catch up to Sony in some of the departments they're better on (HD disc support, multi-OS support, Hard disk support, peripherals and memory stick support.) You can say, "Right now this is the better system", but you aren't buying a system for right now... you're buying a system for the lifetime of the system. Now, seeing how much Sony has improved on the PSP, does anyone really think they're not going to put the same kind of effort into the PS3? Especially when every linux developer on the planet is working on applications that can be run on the system? All I can say is, I'm looking forward to many years of a hell of a lot of gaming fun on this console, and I'm sure when I get mine it's going to get a hell of a lot of use doing a lot of things the 360 is incapable of. The rest of you can enjoy talking about the 'lowest common denominator' and talking about whether or not Jane's TV set is Hi-def. I know which system has a HELL of a lot more value to anyone who can type on a keyboard, which I think is most people on this site.

Thanks for reading.

You done a real good job of convincing everyone here that you love the PS3. But as a valid argument in a debate about the value of the PS3 over the 360, you points are often, in the least, weakly supported or, at the worst, untrue.

"Third, the support you get with the PS3 and PSP is outstanding, fully eclipsing any other console or handheld ever?"

Could you quantify this statement since you somehow dismiss Nintendo vastly larger handheld library? Furthermore, the PS2 has Linux support and one could make argument that game support for the ps3 vs. ps2 is about 13 games and maybe even in the PS2 favor if compatibility issues allows the ps2 to have more ps2/ps1 support then the PS3. You using a forward looking statement and using it as a "at present" argument.

"Second of all, development for the PS3 is going to be FREE AND EASY! Nothing else to buy other than a USB keyboard (which I already own a ton), so I'm already working on some PS3 apps such as an emulator frontend, and I'm probably going to port some of the old games I wrote to the PS3. They're hardly high art, but homebrew on this system is going to be HUGE. Tell me how that's a win for Microsoft."

Sony provides the OS but you do know that MS provides actual tools (gaming wise) for homebrew on the 360. Plus, homebrew may be huge but thats likely the result of the homebrewing brought over by Linux

"But you can do that on a PC'; yeah, but with a PS3, you don't have to. And last time I checked, a $400 game system + $700 PC is still cheaper (more expensive?) than a $600 game system. (Let's ignore the fact that the $700 PC sucks rocks as well."

First, you won't have a lot of people buying a PC and a 360 at the same time to compete with the features of the PS3. Second, the general purpose performance of a $700 dollar PC will still be a lot better than the PS3, if the PC sucks so will the PS3.

"Throw on top of that the fact that I get a free HD player"

No you don't. Why do you think the PS3 cost as much as it does?

Software can be upgraded, hardware can't....No next-gen HD player????

What are you talking about? Haven't you heard of the HD-DVD add-on or the HDD drive, they not standard but upgradeable.

"Microsoft as it's owner, and it's never going to allow a non-MS operating system to be installed on its system."

Explain to me how this is a plus? The ability to install Linux is a great addition, but the advantage lies in the ability to use the PS3 like a computer and has nothing to do with the brand of OS. Vista on the 360 is alot more appealing than Linux on the PS3, but Vista will never be on the 360, so props to Sony.

"You can say, "Right now this is the better system", but you aren't buying a system for right now... you're buying a system for the lifetime of the system. Now, seeing how much Sony has improved on the PSP, does anyone really think they're not going to put the same kind of effort into the PS3? "

If the PS3 doesn't sell well then all these great software become moot because the PS3 will lose where it matters the most and thats "game support".

"I know which system has a HELL of a lot more value to anyone who can type on a keyboard, which I think is most people on this site."

Value is relative and subjective because everyone here doesn't have plans to own a PS3 and those that will own a PS3, not everyone of them will use the PS3 in such a fashion.

 

[mrboo]

I didn't say anything about it's value as a pure entertainment device. I said it will be outclassed as a PC substitute by an actual PC of comparable cost. Look what you can get right now from Dell for $649: http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DDCWAA3&s=dhs:

Pentium® D Processor 820 with Dual Core Technology (2.80GHz, 800FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 Edition
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cacheâ„¢
16x DVD+/-RW Drive
19 inch E197FP Analog Flat Panel
Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3000
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio

NOTE : Im sorry i just could'nt resist laughing