MS to release Xbox 360 with HD-DVD in 2006
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Ty said:
It certainly doesn't add detail, but it's always better to have a pro-scan or even better a HDMI player if you hook it up to a HDTV. Upscaling is the cherry on the cake which depending on the player will make either a small difference or a less small one.
But on LCD's, you really need to try and feed them at least a pro-scan signal or things can get messy, unless the LCD is an expensive set with very good internal processing like the Panny's or the Sony's...
Question..
How is it considered that MS is "abusing" its stance by pushing HD-DVD with its windows dominance? Isn´t Sony doing the same thing with Blu-ray? Sony is using PLaystation to push Blu-ray..
Where is the difference?
Besides, I cannot see MS actions as illegal, MS isn´t pushing their own storage medium via Windows, they are pushing another companys product. It would have been illegal if MS had it´s own "MVD" (Microsoft Video Disc) and used windows.. but now they are pushing for toshibas product..
what if MS would have been pushing for Blu-ray? Then the "illegal" comments would be missing from this thread...
How is it considered that MS is "abusing" its stance by pushing HD-DVD with its windows dominance? Isn´t Sony doing the same thing with Blu-ray? Sony is using PLaystation to push Blu-ray..
Where is the difference?
Besides, I cannot see MS actions as illegal, MS isn´t pushing their own storage medium via Windows, they are pushing another companys product. It would have been illegal if MS had it´s own "MVD" (Microsoft Video Disc) and used windows.. but now they are pushing for toshibas product..
what if MS would have been pushing for Blu-ray? Then the "illegal" comments would be missing from this thread...
mckmas8808
Legend
EndR said:
Guys please. The (supposed) illegal thing that MS is doing is this.
Now of course if true, I shouldn't have to explain to you why this action would be illegal right?
mckmas8808
Legend
aaaaa00 said:
Well somebody here did directly quote the guy straight from the avsforum right?
mckmas8808
Legend
aaaaa00 said:
MS better hope it's a misquote. Because if true...
expletive said:
I still don't understand. If the scaler in my TV is superior then why would upscaling from the DVD player be better? What you mention, artifacting, interpolation, etc. aren't those handled by either the DVD's scaler or my TV's? And so, if my TV's scaler is superior (I have quite the decent PDP), then I still don't get what upscaling from the DVD player would get me.
london-boy said:
Not necessarily true.
http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatvreviews/nec-42mp3-wiley.html
Mind you, I DO feed my PDP a progressive signal anyhow but that's because I have one of the better DVD players out there - uses the Genesis chip which was good enough that Faroujda bought them out.
london-boy said:
That still doesn't answer my question. "If the scaler in my TV is superior, why would upscaling improve the PQ?"
london-boy said:
Ah, see now you're saying just what I said above. It depends...
Ty said:
It wouldn't! Never said it would
In fact, at times it's better to leave one item to do the upscaling (the TV), or the video could go through 2 levels of scaling (first in the DVD player to, say, 720p, and then in the TV which will scale the feed tt its native resolution, for those LCDs with a native res of 1366x768 for example), which obviously isn't very good. I just said (among other things) that an HDMI player will keep things all digital, and you can leave your TV to do the upscaling if you want. HDMI doesn't mean upscaling necessarily.I know... I wasn't the one mentioning upscaling DVD players, i only said that it's better to feed a progressive scan video to most lower to mid-range LCDs (and it's always better anyway, even with high end ones!). I think upscaling DVD players are just a gimmicky and mostly a marketing ploy. A progressive scan image at 480p/575p will give you just as good results in most cases, since the HDTV will be upscaling the image to its native resolution anyway, and it's usually better than most DVD player at doing so. And the players with HDMI will give you a totally digital feed, which is always preferred. That feed may or may not be upscaled, it hardly makes a difference and LARGELY depends on the player and the HDTV it's coupled to. :smile:
Ty said:
Well thats the whole thing really, my case is that the scaler in your TV is NOT superior and newer DVD players are starting to use chips that have superior and highend image processing functions.
What i am doing is making the distinction between 'handled' and 'handled well'. Yes your TV or upscaling DVD player will decode the DVD, deinterlace it, and then scale it. But these are not just black and white functions that can either be done or cant and thats it. There ARE varying degrees of quality within all of these functions, deinterlacing (what a progressive scan player does), decoding (convert the compressed mpg file to a video signal, and scaling (taking the native DVD resolution (480i/576i or 480p/576p after deinterlacing) and then scaling it to some other resolution, usually 720p or 1080i).
For scaling, you have to remember its math. The more math the scaler can process the better/more accurate the results should be. (THe reason why i say should is because there is software algorithms performing the math so if the algorithms suck, then well you udnerstand...) Its very similar to the way precision is discussed on this board, the more bits you use, the more accurate the results. Of course higher precision requires more calculations and more bandwidth so as the chips get more and more powerful we get higher precision color, geometry etc when scaling.
The other functions also take a lot of power. Deinterlacing HD signals (i.e. converting 1080i to 1080p (motion adaptive)) is extremely intensive in terms of computational power. Deinterlacing SD signals, which is what we're talking about here, is not nearly as taxing but still uses some juice. Removing noise and compression artifacts is a high end function. It uses lots of CPU but really adds to making DVDs look 'HD'. Heres a couple of examples of what i'm talking about:
http://www.algolith.com/index.php?id=dragonfly&L=0" onfocus="blurLink(this);
http://www.algolith.com/index.php?id=mosquito_hdmi&L=0" onfocus="blurLink(this);
Now these products are a few grand each so its clearly not a mainstream solution but Denon has a 5910 DVD player that incorporates most of them for around $2500 at the moment and next gen theyll have one for about 1500, another year even cheaper, etc...
Point is that these new processors are workign wonders with SD material. Its not true HD and wont do for sports, but for movies it may be good enough for most people once they come down in price over the next 18 months...
To london-boy,
It seems you're agreeing with what I said then!
Sure, for the vast majority the scalers in some of the never DVD players will be better than the ones in 90% of the HDTV sets out there. You can get these from the even value brands such as Panasonic (DVD-S97) & LG now. These use a newer version of the Fajoudja chipset which are widely praised for being high quality (but they have known macroblocking issues).
<snipped out stuff I knew>
I was already looking at DVDO iScan products so I'm pretty aware of what these products do.
http://www.dvdo.com/
My point is that when you said,
My bold
I took that you were making an overly broad statement that simply upscaling your current DVD material might be "good enough" to be compared with true HD material. Sure I can agree with the choice of the word "might" (for Joe Consumer) but really, the two (upscaled 480P vs. 720P/1080i/P) are worlds apart imo.
It seems you're agreeing with what I said then!
expletive said:
Sure, for the vast majority the scalers in some of the never DVD players will be better than the ones in 90% of the HDTV sets out there. You can get these from the even value brands such as Panasonic (DVD-S97) & LG now. These use a newer version of the Fajoudja chipset which are widely praised for being high quality (but they have known macroblocking issues).
<snipped out stuff I knew>
expletive said:
I was already looking at DVDO iScan products so I'm pretty aware of what these products do.
http://www.dvdo.com/
My point is that when you said,
My bold
I took that you were making an overly broad statement that simply upscaling your current DVD material might be "good enough" to be compared with true HD material. Sure I can agree with the choice of the word "might" (for Joe Consumer) but really, the two (upscaled 480P vs. 720P/1080i/P) are worlds apart imo.
Ty said:
For some material yes. If the newer technologies trickle down to more mainstream players i think films (which have a 'softer' softer look to begin with) would probably be 'good enough' for Joe Consumer (JC). To eb fair, i havent seen either in person in 1080p, I'm only going on anecdotal evidence of people who have seen the newer chips (Realta, Gennum, etc) scale DVD to 1080p and were absolutely amazed. If the hardcore were 'amazed' my guess is that JC might end up 'satisfied'.
SirTendeth
Newcomer
They look good, but not as good as native. And the difference is visible.
According to today's news about CES on NHK (Japan's equivalent of BBC), Microsoft will release an HD-DVD player as a peripheral for Xbox 360 in this year. It says it'll play movies and doesn't mention games.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/2006/01/05/d20060105000069.html
http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/news/cgibin/20060105000069002_mh.cgi (video)
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/2006/01/05/d20060105000069.html
http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/news/cgibin/20060105000069002_mh.cgi (video)
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