MS leak illustrates new console development cycle

[function]

So, every "proof of concept" has been done by nVidia. I would guess the choice should be easy for the next GPU IP provider...

Yeah, AMD.

MS need to be in the driving seat.

 

[troyan]

Doing the same work other companies have done in the past put you in the driver seat?
Time to market would be the better approach. But i guess Microsoft has enough time to "proof" their orange boxes.

 

[function]

Why shouldn't MS want to control technology that will drive their future? Apple have already made the jump with a huge amount of success.

MS were already beyond proof of concept on AI super resolution a bit back. Why give that up to let Nvidia tell MS what they can do, when, and for how much?

They also state they want their own NPU technology (and why not, they're a huge OS and cloud provider with a console line) and that they want an "Extensibility Model for Faster Iteration and Innovation" which doesn't sound to me like "let Nvidia lead us round by the balls".

MS cannot afford to just take whatever Nvidia decides it is in Nvidia's interested to let MS have. Control over hardware lets MS leverage all their capabilities as a vast company with a huge amount of ongoing R&D, and a then adapt and react in the way that suits them best.

MS are not a PC gamer who feels they have no choice but to buy Nvidia, and then just take whatever they offer at whatever price they set.

 

[homerdog]

Going ARM would be such a fascinating move and once again they would be throwing out every last bit of experience their developers gained and learned from years of X86 development, i simply can't see them doing that, but maybe that was the plan until Nvidia was denied ARM? And if Nvidia was the goal, where is the DLSS?

Does the code change if they switch ISA? I (not a programmer) honestly thought you just set the compiler to whatever target you need

 

[Remij]

Disappointed that the new controller seemingly doesn't have adaptive triggers...

 

[techuse]

X86 legacy bloat is a huge negative for a console.

 

[cheapchips]

How useful would things like Arm64EC be to developers used to x86?

 

[Flappy Pannus]

Disappointed that the new controller seemingly doesn't have adaptive triggers...

Yeah, not so much the resistance but the improved haptic feedback on the triggers is what I enjoy most about the DS.

However, the notes on reliability and being user-serviceable are the most intriguing. I doubt it will use hall-effect sensors, but if you can at least repair it cheaply and easily, that's a sorely needed feature.

X86 legacy bloat is a huge negative for a console.

...maybe? They were RISC before and moved to x86 for a reason. Perhaps the next ones will be ARM, but you can't look at wattage from PC CPU's running at 5.5+ ghz and compare that against Apple's SOC's - nearly all architectures on modern process nodes exhibit significantly higher efficiency at lower wattages and reduced clocks, AMD's upcoming .little cores supposedly excel in this area. The bulk of the APU in terms of die space, heat/wattage, and performance bottleneck is still the GPU portion.

 

[Frenetic Pony]

I love that they have no idea what they're doing. Is it a cloud thing? A dedicated thing? A handheld? What's backwards compatibility?

I love the buzzword bingo nonsense someone wrote down "Machine learning! Dynamic global illumination! Cloud! Hybrid!"

With Phil Spencer at the helm Sony and Nintendo will continue to dominate gaming, at least some people there have any idea of what they're doing. We can see there's people at Sony doing R&D work on what a new console even could be, trying to come up with something new, trying out new VR controllers and displays and whatever, at least trying to keep ahead. Meanwhile MS is flailing around buzzwords and considering markets others have already gotten in (a cloud handheld, soooo innovative). Heck maybe SteamDeck will get exponentially more popular and move up after MS drops out.

 

[Frenetic Pony]

MS dona pretty performant translation of x86 to Arm don't they?

No, that's Apple. MS is an embarrassment in comparison, and I think it's actually Qualcomm technically and not MS at all.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

I love that they have no idea what they're doing. Is it a cloud thing? A dedicated thing? A handheld? What's backwards compatibility?

I love the buzzword bingo nonsense someone wrote down "Machine learning! Dynamic global illumination! Cloud! Hybrid!"

With Phil Spencer at the helm Sony and Nintendo will continue to dominate gaming, at least some people there have any idea of what they're doing. We can see there's people at Sony doing R&D work on what a new console even could be, trying to come up with something new, trying out new VR controllers and displays and whatever, at least trying to keep ahead. Meanwhile MS is flailing around buzzwords and considering markets others have already gotten in (a cloud handheld, soooo innovative). Heck maybe SteamDeck will get exponentially more popular and move up after MS drops out.

These aren't schematics, these are simply spitballing at what a console in 2028 could look like. Do you think Sony has actually mapped out the APU for the PS6 by now?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

These aren't schematics, these are simply spitballing at what a console in 2028 could look like. Do you think Sony has actually mapped out the APU for the PS6 by now?

Yup, they haven't even made a decision on ARM64 yet or not. It's on the slides as that's when they are tentatively scheduled to decided if they are going to use ARM64 or not. Likely because they would need to know by that point in order for the hardware to be ready for release in 2027/28.

Regards,
SB

 

[tunafish]

To be clear, they have made the decision now, as it was marked for late 2022. These slides are just more than a year old, so they had not made that decision back when they were made.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

To be clear, they have made the decision now, as it was marked for late 2022. These slides are just more than a year old, so they had not made that decision back when they were made.

Yes, if we assume that CY23 = Calendar Year 23, then the decision might have been made at the end of 2022.

I should have been more clear, at the time the slides were created, the decision hadn't been made yet. So, while MS might know if they are going ARM64 or not, we don't know because that decision isn't part of the leak.

Regards,
SB

 

[arandomguy]

...maybe? They were RISC before and moved to x86 for a reason.

Likely due to the market situation with the hardware choices at the time. ARM (and specially ARM64) was not ready and other options like PowerPC were basically on the way out in terms of market viability. With consumer facing technical marketing you wouldn't want to go into those specifics, and so instead push broader narratives on how x86 itself was important. But I've always had this slight issue with how some people seem to have the idea that both consoles decided specifically on x86 as the first step, as opposed to x86 just being a byproduct of other considerations (likely AMD's overall hardware package in terms of costs).

Part of this might that I think there's been some erroneous interpretations with early reports that Mark Cerny was adamant on x86 for the ISA but if you actually delve into that it's not the case. Rather that he pushed for x86 to be considered because it opened up more hardware options.

I was trying to work out whether [the x86 chip] would be an option. If your only option is the Power PC, it's very restrictive in terms of hardware vendors. If you can also use the x86, you can talk to anyone out there who makes technology."

And that it wasn't so much convincing other parties that x86 was the best option from a ISA stand point but a viable option.

"The first real interaction that we had with the game teams was talking to first-party about the x86 and explaining why we felt that finally it was useable in a console," he continued.

It took 15 presentations to convince Sony to use x86 on PS4

Sounds like a fun day

www.techradar.com

 

[techuse]

...maybe? They were RISC before and moved to x86 for a reason. Perhaps the next ones will be ARM, but you can't look at wattage from PC CPU's running at 5.5+ ghz and compare that against Apple's SOC's - nearly all architectures on modern process nodes exhibit significantly higher efficiency at lower wattages and reduced clocks, AMD's upcoming .little cores supposedly excel in this area. The bulk of the APU in terms of die space, heat/wattage, and performance bottleneck is still the GPU portion.

I always thought the choice to move to x86 was driven solely by AMD offering a complete SOC package for dirt cheap prices.

 

[arandomguy]

I always thought the choice to move to x86 was driven solely by AMD offering a complete SOC package for dirt cheap prices.

The thing is the consumer facing marketing did highlight how beneficial x86 was and so I feel it did give a lot of the public the impression that x86 was specifically chosen. You of course can't market the likely reality which is the cost figures for the AMD hardware package was better than the alternatives.

I go into this a bit in the previous post but if you look at Cerny's public commentary on the matter the early investigation and push was to establish x86 has a viable option to open up more hardware options, otherwise the only choice would be to iterate on the CELL and therefore stick with PowerPC.

 

[Frenetic Pony]

These aren't schematics, these are simply spitballing at what a console in 2028 could look like. Do you think Sony has actually mapped out the APU for the PS6 by now?

I didn't say they were, I'm saying the entire "wall of ideas" they have here is insipidly uninspired. There's indie companies demoing a combined handheld gaming PC/VR headset hybrid with detachable controllers, and apparently it's pretty useable, and that's coming out next year and is already more interesting than anything they're even imagining for 2027-28.

Traditional consoles as a homebox are dead, but a "hybrid cloud console!" is a meaningless no hw designer worth anything would write down. Hybrid in what way?

 

[Flappy Pannus]

There's indie companies demoing a combined handheld gaming PC/VR headset hybrid with detachable controllers, and apparently it's pretty useable,

I'm sure it will sell hundreds.

and that's coming out next year and is already more interesting than anything they're even imagining for 2027-28.

"VR" is the new "This is the year of the linux desktop". I'm not sure why you would expect a sea change in adoption for 2028.

Traditional consoles as a homebox are dead,

....you're basing that on what, exactly? The Switch has been a huge success of course, but they haven't really put a damper on the PS5 or Xbox, the PS5 still is just barely catching up with demand. There's room for both handhelds and traditional consoles that go for as much power as you can cram in at the ~$500 price point, especially with the era of ray tracing barely getting started.

 

[dobwal]

I like that they specifically mention a "swappable" battery. That's the main reason I won't ever get the Elite 2.

Regards,
SB

Aren’t new Euro regulations requiring portable device to have easily replaceable batteries. I remember reading an Apple article about it and how it affects the iPhone and Macs.