Movie Reviews 2.0

London Geezer said:
Mmmm…. Bit of a headache but I dont think that’s right. The ‘original’ timeline had Cap going back in time and then 2 min later he was there, old and all. It’s the same timeline. Preeeetty sure.
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That is precisely my problem with the scene which I've been going through for the last page or so while you've been boozing.
As explained in the movie, they can't change the history of their own timeline, Back to the Future logic does not work in MCU.

So, just like there is a timeline without Thanos (the one from which he leaped to the final fight of Endgame) and another one with two dead Thanoses (the main timeline of Endgame), there is a timeline with no more Steve Rogers after he exited in the timesuit (the timeline we had been following in MCU where Peggy married someone else) and a timeline which had two caps (one in ice after ww2, the other arriving from the future to woo Peggy). Since we see old Steve sitting there, we are witnessing the latter timeline which is no more the timeline we were looking at earlier. Simple as that.
 
Mariner said:
Watched the Doctor Strange movie last night and found it quite enjoyable. I'm pleased that Sam Raimi got the chance to do some of his usual whacky camera work later in the film (you know the bit I'm talking about). Overall, a marked difference from the usual Marvel fare but interestingly different.
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I watched the movie but didn't pick up on the fact that it was
"our" Doctor Strange, so I kept waiting for them to jump Multiverses to get to our official MCU Multiverse.
I think it would have been a better movie setup.
 
WhiningKhan said:
That is precisely my problem with the scene which I've been going through for the last page or so while you've been boozing.
As explained in the movie, they can't change the history of their own timeline, Back to the Future logic does not work in MCU.

So, just like there is a timeline without Thanos (the one from which he leaped to the final fight of Endgame) and another one with two dead Thanoses (the main timeline of Endgame), there is a timeline with no more Steve Rogers after he exited in the timesuit (the timeline we had been following in MCU where Peggy married someone else) and a timeline which had two caps (one in ice after ww2, the other arriving from the future to woo Peggy). Since we see old Steve sitting there, we are witnessing the latter timeline which is no more the timeline we were looking at earlier. Simple as that.
Click to expand...
Mmmm i'm sober and I still don't think I agree with this.
 
WhiningKhan said:
That is precisely my problem with the scene which I've been going through for the last page or so while you've been boozing.
As explained in the movie, they can't change the history of their own timeline, Back to the Future logic does not work in MCU
Click to expand...

You can change history, but changing history does not change the present (from where you originated) when you return.

WhiningKhan said:
So, just like there is a timeline without Thanos (the one from which he leaped to the final fight of Endgame) and another one with two dead Thanoses (the main timeline of Endgame), there is a timeline with no more Steve Rogers after he exited in the timesuit (the timeline we had been following in MCU where Peggy married someone else) and a timeline which had two caps (one in ice after ww2, the other arriving from the future to woo Peggy). Since we see old Steve sitting there, we are witnessing the latter timeline which is no more the timeline we were looking at earlier. Simple as that.
Click to expand...

People and objects can be removed from timelines. There will never be a 40-year Captain American in 'canon timeline in 2024 because he's now in the past. Somewhere, younger-fit Thor is desperate looking for Mjölnir because older-fat Thor stole it during the time heist.

Have you watched Loki? Time travel, and consequences of it in the MCU are explored in more detail, including the principle of self-correcting entropy like small deviations and interferences not mattering and not resulting in branching timelines. Significant ones do, like mucking around with infinite stones and - probably - Thor losing Mjölnir. Or maybe it didn't, may he went to the giant-space-dwarf weapon shop and got a replacement weapon. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
DSoup said:
You can change history, but changing history does not change the present (from where you originated) when you return.
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Yes, which is exactly what "in their own timeline" meant in the text you quoted from me.
DSoup said:
People and objects can be removed from timelines.
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Yes. Cap and Mjölnir disappeared from the timeline in which Peggy married the unknown dude. Agreed?
In that timeline there is no Steve Rogers at all after the moment Banner hits the start-button in the park.


DSoup said:
Have you watched Loki? Time travel, and consequences of it in the MCU are explored in more detail, including the principle of self-correcting entropy like small deviations and interferences not mattering and not resulting in branching timelines.
Click to expand...
I have.
There are countless timelines, the time keepers were not trying to control the number of them but how badly they differed from each other. Steve going back inevitably creates a new timeline. You already suggested it might not differ in a huge way from the original, which we must assume to be correct since the TVA agents did not time-bomb into oblivion.
 
WhiningKhan said:
Yes. Cap and Mjölnir disappeared from the timeline in which Peggy married the unknown dude. Agreed?
In that timeline there is no Steve Rogers at all after the moment Banner hits the start-button in the park.
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Do we know if this is the case? I cannot recall if it was clarified or implied at all.

But assuming it is, why has cap disappeared? Why isn't he frozen in ice? If he hadn't been there for WWII, Hydra and Red Skull would probably have won.

WhiningKhan said:
There are countless timelines, the time keepers were not trying to control the number of them but how badly they differed from each other. Steve going back inevitably creates a new timeline. You already suggested it might not differ in a huge way from the original, which we must assume to be correct since the TVA agents did not time-bomb into oblivion.
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Indeed. I've only see the first three episodes of Loki, but the TVA agent only seem to be become exercised when there are unexpected/unplaned significant deviations that cause branches for what - they perceive - to be the canon timeline. He demonstrates the lack of consequences when he's being a dick in Pompeii.
 
DSoup said:
Do we know if this is the case? I cannot recall if it was clarified or implied at all.

But assuming it is, why has cap disappeared? Why isn't he frozen in ice? If he hadn't been there for WWII, Hydra and Red Skull would probably have won.
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Oh dear. Obviously cap was still in ice. My next sentence after the one you emboldened: When cap exits the timeline, there is no cap left from that point on in that timeline. I.e. no old Steve. The past of course remains the same, i.e. as we were shown in the historical documents MCU movies so far. There cannot be a 100 year old Steve in that timeline because that timeline already happened. He went back, which branches a new timeline, in which he married Peggy and sat himself on the parkbench eventually.

That is logical and simple. After fully watching Loki, I cannot see how the sequence of events could be interpreted any other way. We don't have to try to come up with explanations to cram it somehow into one single timeline, there is an infinite amount of different timelines.
 
WhiningKhan said:
Oh dear. Obviously cap was still in ice. My next sentence after the one you emboldened: When cap exits the timeline, there is no cap left from that point on in that timeline.
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I'm really not following what you're trying to say here, sorry. You went from "there is no Steve Rogers at all" to "obviously he is on ice". I cannot reconcile these two sentences.
 
DSoup said:
I'm really not following what you're trying to say here, sorry. You went from "there is no Steve Rogers at all" to "obviously he is on ice". I cannot reconcile these two sentences.
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Again you cut the quote one sentence short.
I e. No old Steve. In that timeline. After that point in time. Hence there is no steves left on that specific timeline. Not anymore, because he exited into the quantum tunnel thingy. But he was of course there a minute ago before he exited. That did not get erased, because that already happened. What has happened, is immutable.

Time is relative and the past won't change in your own timeline, that has been acknowledged, right? So, in a timeline where Peggy was married to someone else, there cannot be old Steve since they are two separate timelines which exclude each other.

This all means that the timeline we are shown in the parkbench scene is not the same timeline shown in CA: Winter Soldier.
 
WhiningKhan said:
Time is relative and the past won't change in your own timeline, that has been acknowledged, right? So, in a timeline where Peggy was married to someone else, there cannot be old Steve since they are two separate timelines which exclude each other.

This all means that the timeline we are shown in the parkbench scene is not the same timeline shown in CA: Winter Soldier.
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Apologies for the earlier half-quote. I follow now.

On the bolded point, yes I would assume so. The writers been vague on what triggers distinct timelines, other than mentioning the infinity stones but it's seemingly possible for compete temporal discontinuity (e.g. two Steves, swiping the infinite stones), without seemingly massive consequences. Do timelines split and re-merge? Did Steve going backs trigger a slight divergence into another timeline which merged back into the main one by 2023?

I've no honestly idea.
 
WhiningKhan said:
Time is relative and the past won't change in your own timeline, that has been acknowledged, right? So, in a timeline where Peggy was married to someone else, there cannot be old Steve since they are two separate timelines which exclude each other.
Click to expand...

You're assuming Peggy didn't have an open relationship and was faithful to that husband ...
 
DSoup said:
Do timelines split and re-merge? Did Steve going backs trigger a slight divergence into another timeline which merged back into the main one by 2023?
Click to expand...
Watching all of Loki, What If, and Strange in Multiverse, I don't recall anything suggesting timelines/realities/parallel universes merging together. Rather the opposite. They certainly show us that the timelines split in every imaginable way.
There is no need for a concept of 'triggering' timelines in the multiverse when temporal manipulation/crossing through the multiverse is not in play; every possible permutation of events in every point in time simply form the endless list of parallel realities/the multiverse. But an obvious consequence of that thought is that time travel inevitably has to spawn additional parallel realities due to it bringing even more possible outcomes onto the table (which do not exist in scenarios without temporal/multiverse manipulation).
 
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WhiningKhan said:
Watching all of Loki, What If, and Strange in Multiverse, I don't recall anything suggesting timelines/realities/parallel universes merging together. Rather the opposite. They certainly show us that the timelines split in every imaginable way.
Click to expand...

It's a common theory of time travel that only unique timelines exist. I.e. is here a distinct timeline where on Saturday, 1st April 1996 I had a burger for diner, rather than pasta? Or did they simply merge following zero consequences or further divergence? I thought I had seen splits merges visualised in the MCU but I could be mistaken.

This article sets out the writers position on the Cap time travelling thing.
 
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