More info about RSX from NVIDIA

[one]

Also time is important . Sony keeps saying spring . Is that enough time to rip out these thigns and replace other things while moving to 90nm and increasing the clock speeds ? I dunno. It will certianly be interesting to see what the key diffrences are

Well, considering Xenos is a 2-die solution with eDRAM and manufactured in 2 different fabs for its November launch, everyone seems to have issues to take care of.

I guess PureVideo and things may be replaced by redundancy pipes to get a high yield, which doesn't affect increasing clock speed.

 

[aaaaa00]

Yes, it's an amazing feat as it is supposed to cram more than a big PS3 dev kit into that console box, with a power supply unit. PS3 uses this technology for its internal power supply unit while Xbox 360 uses an external AC adopter.

Doesn't PS3 still need a conventional AC-DC converter somewhere?

None of the VIchip parts listed there do AC-DC conversion, just stepping around various DC voltages and currents.

Or maybe I didn't look hard enough.

 

[jvd]

Also time is important . Sony keeps saying spring . Is that enough time to rip out these thigns and replace other things while moving to 90nm and increasing the clock speeds ? I dunno. It will certianly be interesting to see what the key diffrences are

Well, considering Xenos is a 2-die solution with eDRAM and manufactured in 2 different fabs for its November launch, everyone seems to have issues to take care of.

I guess PureVideo and things may be replaced by redundancy pipes to get a high yield, which doesn't affect increasing clock speed.

well xenos is tapped out . So the design has been done . We don't know how far along the rsx is

 

[Carl B]

well xenos is tapped out . So the design has been done . We don't know how far along the rsx is

I agree but stuff like removing Purevideo must have been (better have been!) part of the RSX's design from the beginning, not some last miute decision. G70 taped out in April, so even assuming the development wasn't concurent per se, but straight G70 adaptation, that should be plenty of time to get that Purevideo (and whatever other things) removed.

 

[jvd]

well xenos is tapped out . So the design has been done . We don't know how far along the rsx is

I agree but stuff like removing Purevideo must have been (better have been!) part of the RSX's design from the beginning, not some last miute decision. G70 taped out in April, so even assuming the development wasn't concurent per se, but straight G70 adaptation, that should be plenty of time to get that Purevideo (and whatever other things) removed.

mabye , like i've said it depends on how intergrated it is to the rest of the chip. WE don't know what interwines . SO its hard to say they had enough time .

I'm sure developement of the rsx started before the g70 was even finalized . However we don't know what prioitys certian things were given.


Arren't we also expecting a fp 32 hdr ? I don't recall reading about it in the review

 

[V3]

mabye , like i've said it depends on how intergrated it is to the rest of the chip. WE don't know what interwines . SO its hard to say they had enough time.

If they had enough time to transfer it to 90nm and design the interface with Cell, they should be able to remove it if they wanted too.

But why would you want to remove it out though ? I mean it work this time round unlike NV40. So it can help Cell in decoding stuff which mean it'll make things run cooler.

Arren't we also expecting a fp 32 hdr ? I don't recall reading about it in the review

Yes from NV at E3 during PS3, that's what he said 128bit HDR, but perhaps we misunderstood what he meant.

 

[jvd]

But why would you want to remove it out though ? I mean it work this time round unlike NV40. So it can help Cell in decoding stuff which mean it'll make things run cooler.

Its useless really the video acceleration part at least . The cell should be more than fast enough to decode an mpeg 4 stream .

Yes from NV at E3 during PS3, that's what he said 128bit HDR, but perhaps we misunderstood what he meant.

Mabye .

 

[Mythos]

Just saw the G4 tv interview with the NVidia manager and Kevin asked him what will go into the RSX from the G70 chip. He stated...the G70 is the parent tech+more fine tune with cell+more added features.

 

[two]

G70 Anti-Aliasing capabilites (from PSInext):

 

[jvd]

you mean from hardocp

 

[Carl B]

I have to wonder why NVidia created those slides though - it seems too targeted towards Xenos for a chip that itself is not the RSX. Obviously that 'free' AA is accurate, but it's 'free' (low-cost) due to the CPU limitiations.

Since it's not the RSX, and it doesn't seem these statements will hold true in the future, it just seems like a strange claim to make.

 

[Wunderchu]

ya, as xbdestroya states, and as as Inane_Dork mentioned here: http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=355488&page=7


the reason why there is such a small hit from enabling AA for those games for PC, is because they are CPU limited ..... PS3 will not be CPU limited

 

[Acert93]

1. I believe those benchies in the first 2 are MSAA; mentioning SSAA in the 3rd slide is misleading.

2. In #2 1600x1200 4xaa 8xaf FarCry and Doom 3 take significant hits. 44% and 39% in non-CPU limited games does NOT look like free AA to me.

3. G70 still does not support MSAA with a FP16 render target (e.g. HDR). SSAA is a much larger hit.

While G70 looks like a nice refresh I am actually pretty dissappointed that there is no MSAA + HDR. The entire "free AA" deal is a good laugh... yeah, if we want 2003/early 2004 looking games

But it is becoming more and more clear that the original press release from Sony/Nvidia concerning the PS3 GPU being a implimentation of their next gen (=G70) GPU is pretty much dead on.

And that is why we are seeing some Xenos / RSX comparisons IMO. I know a lot of sources have hinted at this (I know Dave said we would know more about RSX when G70 was officially released). Not that having a G70 in the PS3 is a bad thing. It took NV ~1yr to get G70 since the NV40 launch. That means PS3 is getting a GPU FASTER (550MHz core) than what is out right now.

But compared to Xenos it is looking more like an issue of tradeoffs. Obviously free AA bugged NV enough to make these slides. But AA wont be the only defining feature next gen. Obviously how well FP10 looks on Xenos is up in the air, and how much of a hit FP16 is will be interesting. Obviously how effecient the Xeno Unified Shaders is will also be very important. Best case it could make up the shader transistor difference and maybe then some (and still get free AA) or it may be a bit underpowered with 4xAA.

At this point only devs under NDA who have toyed with both have any idea where this thing will land. Until then ATI/MS and NV/Sony will spin spin spin!

 

[Wunderchu]

1. I believe those benchies in the first 2 are MSAA; mentioning SSAA in the 3rd slide is misleading.

2. In #2 1600x1200 4xaa 8xaf FarCry and Doom 3 take significant hits. 44% and 39% in non-CPU limited games does NOT look like free AA to me.

3. G70 still does not support MSAA with a FP16 render target (e.g. HDR). SSAA is a much larger hit.

While G70 looks like a nice refresh I am actually pretty dissappointed that there is no MSAA + HDR. The entire "free AA" deal is a good laugh... yeah, if we want 2003/early 2004 looking games

But it is becoming more and more clear that the original press release from Sony/Nvidia concerning the PS3 GPU being a implimentation of their next gen (=G70) GPU is pretty much dead on.

And that is why we are seeing some Xenos / RSX comparisons IMO. I know a lot of sources have hinted at this (I know Dave said we would know more about RSX when G70 was officially released). Not that having a G70 in the PS3 is a bad thing. It took NV ~1yr to get G70 since the NV40 launch. That means PS3 is getting a GPU FASTER (550MHz core) than what is out right now.

But compared to Xenos it is looking more like an issue of tradeoffs. Obviously free AA bugged NV enough to make these slides. But AA wont be the only defining feature next gen. Obviously how well FP10 looks on Xenos is up in the air, and how much of a hit FP16 is will be interesting. Obviously how effecient the Xeno Unified Shaders is will also be very important. Best case it could make up the shader transistor difference and maybe then some (and still get free AA) or it may be a bit underpowered with 4xAA.

At this point only devs under NDA who have toyed with both have any idea where this thing will land. Until then ATI/MS and NV/Sony will spin spin spin!

nice points

 

[Carl B]

And that is why we are seeing some Xenos / RSX comparisons IMO. I know a lot of sources have hinted at this (I know Dave said we would know more about RSX when G70 was officially released). Not that having a G70 in the PS3 is a bad thing. It took NV ~1yr to get G70 since the NV40 launch. That means PS3 is getting a GPU FASTER (550MHz core) than what is out right now.

Yeah I agree and knew this to be the case, but it just seems strange. Let the console chip battle the console chip - why would they use the G70 as a proxy while RSX finishes 'freshening up?' Just seems a little bizarre, out of place, and reactionary. They should keep quiet, tweak RSX all they can, release info ahead of or at TGS, and play to their strengths - not chase ATI on 'free' anti-aliasing press releases.

Who knows - maybe NVidia perceived a halo effect forming around ATI due to Xenos and decided that even for the PC side, addressing this AA thing was worth making some slides about.

 

[nAo]

the reason why there is such a small hit from enabling AA for those games for PC, is because they are CPU limited ..... PS3 will not be CPU limited

PS3 could be CPU limited too

 

[jvd]

the reason why there is such a small hit from enabling AA for those games for PC, is because they are CPU limited ..... PS3 will not be CPU limited

PS3 could be CPU limited too

I highly doubt it .

The reasons why these games are cpu limited are

1) the games are older even if thier release date was this year . Farcry , doom3 and half life 2 engines all started life years ago .

2) Cpu power on the pcs has moved much much slower than the gpu power
we've gone basicly from an athlon 64 3000+ speed to an athlon 64 4000+ . Where as the gpus have gone from the 9700pro to the x800xt pe to now the g70 .

3) half life 2 and farcry which make the most use of shaders barely tap them. Next gen games will be pushing these graphics sub systems to the limits . Games based around the the xenos and rsx will be designed to push as much power out of these as possible . While the xenos gets its fsaa for free from its edram the rsx doesn't and depending on the situation we may go from free fsaa to costly fsaa and that can change from scene to scene .



While i'm sure both systems will do great at 4x fsaa 720p , I don't know how well the rsx will fair at 1080p res with fsaa or how it does when sm 3.0 shaders are pushed to the limits . With the xenos only the last one applys as it wont be doing 1080p

 

[nAo]

We already know NG consoles CPUs are slower in general purpose code than their PC counterparts.
Moreover more power it also means developers will try to push more things on screen, more gfx, more physics, more AI, etc..
We will observe many CPU limited games on PS3 and XBOX360 , imho
(Well...most PS2 games are CPU limited too )

 

[PC-Engine]

But the CPU in PS2 also do TnL...

 

[jvd]

We already know NG consoles CPUs are slower in general purpose code than their PC counterparts.
Moreover more power it also means developers will try to push more things on screen, more gfx, more physics, more AI, etc..
We will observe many CPU limited games on PS3 and XBOX360 , imho
(Well...most PS2 games are CPU limited too )

More things on screen means a) more fillrate needed b) more texutres needed c ) more shader power Which is all the gpu which will put a huge strain on the gpu . Esp shaders and texturing .

As for physics and more ai that will be on the cpu.

i know you want to make the case that nvidia can do what ati can do on the consoles . But we don't know yet and these numbers don't really show any info except when paired up with the fastest pc cpus the g70 is cpu limited.