Microsoft Surface tablets

[ams]

Well, the Nexus 7 tablet is already sold out at most retailers, and it just came out.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nexus-7-sales-2012-7

Clearly the Nexus 7 is going to sell extremely well throughout the year. Interestingly enough, there are many ipad users posting online who have decided to purchase the Nexus 7 tablet for friends and family. It is a great product at a great price.

 

[Laurent06]

The Surface RT will have: faster quad-core CPU, better battery life

I don't think battery life is known

 

[bkilian]

I don't think inferior is the right word compared to the current ipad. Certainly different. The Surface RT will have: faster quad-core CPU, better battery life, 1mm thinner chassis, integrated kickstand, a larger 10.6" Widescreen HD display for reduced or no letterboxing with widescreen movies, ClearType display technology to help make text appear clearer and sharper, Tegra 3 optimized games on Tegra Zone, a scratch-resistant chassis that is cool to the touch due to use of magnesium alloy, Touch or Type keyboard accessories, new operating system optimized for touch screens and ARM processors, free touch-optimized version of MS Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote. Of course, ipad is still very nice too, with rich apps and higher resolution display (although due to the extreme resolution, the performance can suffer just a bit in some instances). So while no tablet is perfect, let's give credit where credit is due.

Dude, I _work_ for Microsoft, and even to me, you seem to be astroturfing. I mean, Cleartype? I'd take the iPad's higher resolution any day over Cleartype. And I say this having had to fight Win 8 for the last two weeks to try unblur the fonts on my work machine.

 

[tuna]

ClearType display technology to help make text appear clearer and sharper,

Is not higher resolution better than anti-alising?

 

[eastmen]

Well, the Nexus 7 tablet is already sold out at most retailers, and it just came out.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nexus-7-sales-2012-7

Clearly the Nexus 7 is going to sell extremely well throughout the year. Interestingly enough, there are many ipad users posting online who have decided to purchase the Nexus 7 tablet for friends and family. It is a great product at a great price.

The kindle sold alot up front also and the kindle 2 will do the same. I'm highly doubtful the nexus will continue to sell through out the year.

 

[zed]

Count me surprised if that $200 device outsells the $500+ iPad.

me to
google has the smarts that trying to compete against the ipad is a no win situation, theyve got to build up a reputation first. MS OTOH think we're big & well known we'll compete head on against the ipad, they should of done the google route and try and build a marketshare first

 

[wco81]

To be fair, it sounds like MS is trying to produce a nicer ID than most other tablets. It sounds like they want to position themselves in the higher end of the market, at least with what they've shown so far.

Would be an interesting strategy, because they derive a big part of their revenues from PCs where the ASP is probably around $500-600?

They have big margins on high volumes but it's from software. To get healthy margins on hardware, they'd have to price in the same range as Apple's products, especially if they don't get the same cost advantages that Apple enjoys.

 

[bkilian]

To be fair, it sounds like MS is trying to produce a nicer ID than most other tablets. It sounds like they want to position themselves in the higher end of the market, at least with what they've shown so far.

Would be an interesting strategy, because they derive a big part of their revenues from PCs where the ASP is probably around $500-600?

They have big margins on high volumes but it's from software. To get healthy margins on hardware, they'd have to price in the same range as Apple's products, especially if they don't get the same cost advantages that Apple enjoys.

Well, the cost advantages aren't completely out of hand. We've sold as many 360s as Apple has sold Macs in their entire life. We also have wildly successful keyboard and mouse businesses, this gives us at least some leverage with the component manufacturers. We also have an excellent relationship with intel, who would love to see arm tablets disappear, so I'm hoping they have negotiated something special for the pro.

Of course, it's very difficult to maintain the kind of margins Apple has unless you're apple. Along with the significantly reduced Win8 upgrade price, I suspect our operating margin may suffer a little.

 

[Mintmaster]

The industry moved to 16:9 because that was what the TV industry moved to. It has nothing to do with nobody wanting 4:3 screens on laptops or being less useful.

Do you understand how the free market works? If people had any substantial preference for 4:3, you would have those laptops out there, particularly since they were there first. Even if only 5% of people wanted it enough to pay $50 for it, they'd be on the market because:
A) LCD makers were already making the panels
B) Notebook makers already had the chassis for it
C) There are tons of small small notebook makers who would love to cater to that 5%
I never said 4:3 was less useful. I said it had little advantage. You, on the other hand, claimed it was a "BIG DIFFERENCE", but as usual have zero evidence to back it up. In fact, sales of sub-13" notebooks went UP drastically as the 16:9 transition occurred.

Given that you didn't get the point the first time going on about resolution, I had to use an extreme example to get you to see the light...

See what light? You still haven't made any point. The fact is that I can get MORE work done on a 11" 1080p than a 13" 768p. Same with SB. I'd bet it's the same with at least 80% of CAD users (of which I am one). Would I prefer a 1080p 13" in a <2lb package instead? Sure, but that's not an option.

On top of that, there's there's image/video editing, photoshop, music software, development programs, and countless other software that would be awful when dumbed down to iOS, WinRT, or Android. Everyone wants portability, so the sub 13" notebook market isn't going anywhere.

Stop inventing stuff I never claimed.

You said, "Anything with a tiny 10" screen is not a notebook...that's what you call a netbook. I doubt most notebook buyers will want to go for a $1000 W8Pro tablet instead of a proper notebook with large screen."

I'm not inventing anything. CAD/CAM has been the example that you obsessed about, but you clearly made a larger point when you said the above. You said the Pro won't sell nearly as well as the RT because it can't be used for real work, meaning you're talking about everyone's work, not just CAD/CAM users. So once again, why won't anyone from the multi-million unit sub-13" market choose a Pro, or any Win8 tablet? There's some vast usability gulf between 10.6" and 11.6"? Get real.

Did I say they did? Lean how to read man.

You have a short memory, don't you. You said, "Where is your study that says all of those Mac Airs being used for CAD/CAM?" to support your (pathetic) claim that "13 is the THRESHOLD for usability" after I challenged it. The only way one is related to the other is if you think CAD users are the ones who define usability, and hence how you design your products.

I'm sorry but you lost ALL credibility right there man...
Not my fault you still haven't been able to make a strong case against my argument..

Let me get this straight:
A) The opinions of everyone at B3D doesn't matter to you
B) The opinions of writers at the biggest CE site on the internet don't matter to you
C) ACTUAL FUCKING SALES DATA doesn't matter to you
And I'm the one that lost credibility?

As for your chart, read it carefully and look at the trend...

So what? You think it's going to disappear in an instant? That trend will take 5 years before it becomes a meaningless market, while the Surface is coming this year. It's still a huge market to attack, while the RT is left nibbling at the tiny non-iPad tablet market with a new OS that has a dearth of apps available.

Producing more doesn't always mean there's more demand

Yeah, you go ahead and believe that manufacturers are building things that nobody buys. I guess that goes well with your belief that they have no financial incentive to keep building stuff people want which is already designed and in production.

-------------------------------------------------------

Let's summarize this debate: You still haven't brought any evidence whatsoever to support your claim that sub 13" notebooks are useless for real work and therefore the Surface can't be used for it. All you offer is your opinion, and sadly you can't even find anyone to agree with it. I, however, show you factual data that they are outselling 13", even in the face of the tablet revolution, and that level of sales is at least 3x as much as I needed to make my point that the Surface Pro is attacking a sizable market which the Surface RT cannot.

 

[Mintmaster]

Count me surprised if that $200 device outsells the $500+ iPad.

Win8 tablets could strangely be a huge boon to sales of the Fire and Nexus 7 in the short term. Apple combines their marketing with superior hardware, but after Win8 tablets it's no longer even close to the best tablet, nor will have even close to the diversity of applications it can run. That halo is a big reason people are paying $500 for some thing with marginal benefits over products half its price or less. Of course, I should never underestimate the allure of Apple...

 

[wco81]

Ballmer once conceded that Apple had locked up flash or some other component one year, which made it difficult for them to compete against the iPod.

I believe the Zune was priced at parity most of the time with the iPod, especially the Nano. So it was difficult to make headway. Presumably they couldn't produce or was willing to produce Zune in volumes to really go up against the iPod, which may be one reason why it wasn't launched globally.

Of course we've heard stories about Apple pouring billions to lock up key components for iPad or presumably other iOS devices. So when MS announced limited distribution of the Zune -- only at MS stores B&M and online -- you wonder what their volume targets are.

At some point, they may give guidance to Wall Street on volume or report the volume of Surface sales in their earnings, though my recollection is that they don't always break out the Entertainment division's numbers by product line.

 

[zed]

To be fair, it sounds like MS is trying to produce a nicer ID than most other tablets. It sounds like they want to position themselves in the higher end of the market, at least with what they've shown so far.

I agree & thats their undoing, their we're still the MS of 10-15 years ago. Hubris
look at zune
look at bing (& the 30+ billion crazy offer fo yahoo) ballmer vs google
look at the new nokia phones (the new win OS showcase) - ignoring the OS/store etc (cause ppl can get hung up on that) but the hardware is provenly inferior to the same priced competition, yet they expect ppl to chose it over the competition?
look at the windows mobile OS & that phone they made & then dropped

Its like a new market emerges, MS waits too long & it turns out to be a success & then they think we'll jump in & grab a large size cause we're big&famous, but theyre too late to the party.

Instead of following & being conservative, MS should lead from the front with innovation, take chances, like google (even if it means 90% of the stuff you make fails, whats google doing ATM driverless cars,space,power generation, glasses etc)

 

[eastmen]

I agree & thats their undoing, their we're still the MS of 10-15 years ago. Hubris
look at zune

Each verison of the zune compared well with the ipads of the time.

look at bing (& the 30+ billion crazy offer fo yahoo) ballmer vs google

look at the new nokia phones (the new win OS showcase) - ignoring the OS/store etc (cause ppl can get hung up on that) but the hardware is provenly inferior to the same priced competition, yet they expect ppl to chose it over the competition?

The hardware may be inferior , however the software is much better than andriod in terms of responsiveness and usability. I've owned an epic 4g and have had time to play with a galaxy s3 and my arrive is certianly smoother than both these phones dispite the galaxy s3 having much better hardware.

look at the windows mobile OS & that phone they made & then dropped

It did things that apple didn't add to the iphone till years later.

Its like a new market emerges, MS waits too long & it turns out to be a success & then they think we'll jump in & grab a large size cause we're big&famous, but theyre too late to the party.

MS was years ahead of Apple for the phone market and the tablet market. So i don't see how this statement holds any merit.

Instead of following & being conservative, MS should lead from the front with innovation, take chances, like google (even if it means 90% of the stuff you make fails, whats google doing ATM driverless cars,space,power generation, glasses etc)

The thing with MS is they continue to make quality products. There is just a double standard look at whats going on now with the EU investigating ms restricting acess to diffrent browsers on win rt. Apple who has the dominate market share on tablets has been doign this for years , however its MS that is going to end up getting in trouble over it .

So in alot of ways MS's hands are still tied

 

[bkilian]

The biggest problem with Microsoft is we often enter a market too soon. The Phone market is an excellent example of this. We had smartphones years before they were popular, and years before the tech was really mature enough to support the kinds of features we wanted. Same for Tablets. We had tablets 5 years before apple even launched the iphone, never mind the ipad. Same problem, resistive touch screens, slow processors, crap battery life. The technology was just not mature enough to encompass the vision we had for it. We also had partners making mp3 players and wma players years before the ipod. unfortunately, flash storage was not very dense at that point, and even the IBM microdrive capped out at 340MB.

Of course, first impressions count, so making the mistake of creating a new market before the technology can really support it can torpedo your market position for years.

That's where apple excels. They are masters of entering the market just as the technology matures, doing an awesome product, and then convincing the public they _created_ that market and are the world's best innovators. Every product apple has launched has been a "Wen can do a better thing", as opposed to "We invented a new thing"

 

[hkultala]

The biggest problem with Microsoft is we often enter a market too soon. The Phone market is an excellent example of this. We had smartphones years before they were popular, and years before the tech was really mature enough to support the kinds of features we wanted.

Nokia had smartphones much before microsoft, and those had the features I wanted.

Same for Tablets. We had tablets 5 years before apple even launched the iphone, never mind the ipad. Same problem, resistive touch screens, slow processors, crap battery life. The technology was just not mature enough to encompass the vision we had for it.

it was not so much about technology under it. It was about the way how you did it.

windows tablets were just laptops without keyboard and a touchscreen, with UI that was meant for mouse + keyboard. That means usability will suck, no matter what hardware you have under it.

And those early windows ce devices wasted lots of screen space into unnecessary task bars and window title bars, just to make it look like desktop windows. again, usability sucked.

We also had partners making mp3 players and wma players years before the ipod. unfortunately, flash storage was not very dense at that point, and even the IBM microdrive capped out at 340MB.

there were also other players making better and cheaper mp3 players based on some minimal rtos or linux. And later models of microdrive had more capasity.

Of course, first impressions count, so making the mistake of creating a new market before the technology can really support it can torpedo your market position for years.
That's where apple excels. They are masters of entering the market just as the technology matures, doing an awesome product, and then convincing the public they _created_ that market and are the world's best innovators. Every product apple has launched has been a "Wen can do a better thing", as opposed to "We invented a new thing"

It's the mistake of making a bad product. If you make a product that you cannot make a good product, you won't sell a lot, no matter how much you hype and advertise it. You have to release the product when it's good, and it will create it's own hype.

By hyping and advertising bad products, the reputation of the better, later products from the same product line is also spoiled.

 

[ams]

I don't think battery life is known

There was a slide from NVIDIA released somewhere which said that battery life will be > 10 hours. Of course we will have to wait for real reviews to come out to confirm.

 

[ams]

Dude, I _work_ for Microsoft, and even to me, you seem to be astroturfing. I mean, Cleartype? I'd take the iPad's higher resolution any day over Cleartype. And I say this having had to fight Win 8 for the last two weeks to try unblur the fonts on my work machine.

Obviously the higher resolution display is an advantage (and I did list that as an advantage for the ipad if you read the post carefully), but there are tradeoffs too. With respect to the current ipad, in some instances it can become quite warm to the touch. Also, due to the extreme resolution, performance can slow down a bit at times. Like I said earlier, no tablet is perfect, but the Surface RT is certainly no slouch even compared to ipad.

 

[ams]

The kindle sold alot up front also and the kindle 2 will do the same. I'm highly doubtful the nexus will continue to sell through out the year.

We will have to wait and see, but I anticipate very strong sales for the Nexus 7 between now and year end. The Nexus 7 tablet is great for anyone who prefers to use gmail and the rest of the google ecosystem.

 

[Lazy8s]

The Lite MBX + VGP used to drive the first, 2007 iPhone GUI had been in products since 2004; conceptualizing an intuitive and responsive way to use that performance for interfacing with a small screen (pinch zoom, scrolling logic) took a little extra hardware yet mostly software design innovation.

 

[sebbbi]

We will have to wait and see, but I anticipate very strong sales for the Nexus 7 between now and year end. The Nexus 7 tablet is great for anyone who prefers to use gmail and the rest of the google ecosystem.

I don't personally understand 7 inch tablets at all. I have a 5.3 inch phone with a 1280x800 screen. It's always online (3G/HDSPA), pocketable and brings by email and web browser (and the rest of the googe ecosystem) where-ever I go. 7 inch tablets weight over twice as much as a 5.3 inch phone, are are not that well space optimized (huge bezels, thicker, etc), require a bag to carry around (just like bigger 9/10 inch tablets), do not offer any better screen resolution than phones (same 1280x800), require wlan to be online, are not able to receive phone calls and text messages. All this for just 1.7 inches of extra screen space (and no extra pixels)?

Retina iPad on the other hand...