Microsoft Surface tablets

[RudeCurve]

Don't you understand , when Apple does it , its amazing and resolutionary . When MS does it , its just bad bad bad .

He doesn't have a leg to stand on and he moves the goal posts each time he posts. He hasn't actually posted anything of value for a very long time

Yes because I'm an Apple fanboy who doesn't own an iPad but has a Windows netbook, a Windows notebook, and a couple of Windows desktops running all windows software...yeah that must be it. Oh and did I mention I'm going to be seriously looking at the RT to use for media consumption and light productivity?

Also, care to point out which goal posts have been moved?

 

[Andrew Lauritzen]

Question is are YOU seriously running AutoCAD on a 10" netbook?

Is your entire concept of what "real work" is = CAD? Because that's pretty narrow. But hell, CAD works great with a pen... and even on small screens

You're also forgetting that a lot of the argument here is not just more power, but compatibility. So what if there's some (yet to be seen) RT version of Word/Excel/Powerpoint... is there OneNote (oh wait, you'd want a pen)? Access? Outlook? Lync? Can it join a domain? If not, that's a non-starter for any business work, even if I just want to read my e-mail. And that's not even starting to talk about the real kickers: all the business-specific x86 applications out there. Don't know anyone who is madly working on Metro versions of those...

For business, RT is less than useless as it currently standards.

And some of us are not just making crap up here... I have a Samsung Series 7 Slate that I use for all sorts of things, which is a very similar device to the Surface Pro. But wait, because you say that I can't get anything accomplished on it, I should just pitch it and switch to... what... an ipad? Have I just not seen the apple light or something?

 

[ams]

For business, RT is less than useless as it currently standards.

Again, support for legacy [x86] business apps is irrelevant because the Surface RT tablet is a consumer-focused device. Forward-looking apps written for Windows RT will be touch optimized. There is no limit as to what touch optimized apps can be created in the future for Windows RT, it is just a question of doing it. Give it some time for goodness sake. The RT operating system is in it's infancy.

 

[bkilian]

I'm tired of arguing about the usability of a screen with a larger area than the iPad (which I am using right now, and would be an absolutely perfect size for autocad). You may think its about the size of the screen, but that's not accurate, the reason smaller screens weren't usable before is resolution. Windows has dialogs taller than 600 pixels, and that has always caused problems with smaller screens.

Here's a test, set your large monitor to 1024x600 and then try run autocad on it, then come tell me it's got nothing to do with resolution.

Then realize that a huge amount of 3d design work takes place using Wacom tablets, some of which are much smaller than 13".

So despite what you think, a ton of "Real Work" will get done on the surface pro.

 

[ams]

P.S. The pre-installed version of MS Office on the Surface RT tablet will include Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote. For new apps, the focus for Windows RT is on the new Windows runtime [WinRT]. The goal is to have a wide variety of touch-optimized, web-connected, cloud-enabled apps for Windows RT.

 

[RudeCurve]

I'm tired of arguing about the usability of a screen with a larger area than the iPad (which I am using right now, and would be an absolutely perfect size for autocad). You may think its about the size of the screen, but that's not accurate, the reason smaller screens weren't usable before is resolution. Windows has dialogs taller than 600 pixels, and that has always caused problems with smaller screens.

Here's a test, set your large monitor to 1024x600 and then try run autocad on it, then come tell me it's got nothing to do with resolution.

Then realize that a huge amount of 3d design work takes place using Wacom tablets, some of which are much smaller than 13".

So despite what you think, a ton of "Real Work" will get done on the surface pro.

My point is if the screen is too small to begin with it doesn't matter how high the resolution of the screen is. Sure you could see more stuff on the screen but everything is smaller which makes it more difficult to see. A 10" 16:9 1080p screen is too small for 3D modeling unless you like to zoom and pan a lot. As I said it's not about being able to run it, it's about comfortably using it everyday. No matter what resolution a 10" 16:9 screen is it's just not useful for that type of stuff.

I use a Wacom tablet as an input device but my output device is 22" and I sit about 3 feet away from the screen. The size of the Wacom tablet has little to do with it because it doesn't have a display. It acts just like a touch pad on a notebook which doesn't require much room to move around.

 

[ams]

Can it join a domain?

Unlike Windows 8 Pro, Windows 8 and Windows RT do not support Domain Join. So clearly the RT tablet is geared for consumer use. In the future, Microsoft could release Windows RT Pro with support for Domain Join (among other things), but it is unclear if and when this will happen.

 

[bkilian]

My point is if the screen is too small to begin with it doesn't matter how high the resolution of the screen is. Sure you could see more stuff on the screen but everything is smaller which makes it more difficult to see. A 10" 16:9 1080p screen is too small for 3D modeling unless you like to zoom and pan a lot. As I said it's not about being able to run it, it's about comfortably using it everyday. No matter what resolution a 10" 16:9 screen is it's just not useful for that type of stuff.

I use a Wacom tablet as an input device but my output device is 22" and I sit about 3 feet away from the screen. The size of the Wacom tablet has little to do with it because it doesn't have a display. It acts just like a touch pad on a notebook which doesn't require much room to move around.

So... Uh, just letting you know... Your 22" screen at 36 inches has the same effective resolving area as a 11" screen at 18", which, I suspect is about how far you'd use your Wacom tablet, if it had a screen. Actually, I'd use it a bit closer, myself, that's how I do it when I'm drawing, and at closer than 17", the surface screen is actually larger than a 22" monitor at 3 feet.

I think your mistake is you think people will use this like a laptop or desktop, by having it far from their face. But they won't, it's a tablet, and will be used as one. Take a look at pictures of people using Cintiq tablets some time, they all hold them 18" or less from their face...

 

[bkilian]

Unlike Windows 8 Pro, Windows 8 and Windows RT do not support Domain Join. So clearly the RT tablet is geared for consumer use. In the future, Microsoft could release Windows RT Pro with support for Domain Join (among other things), but it is unclear if and when this will happen.

Doubt it. Companies are a lot less price sensitive than general consumers, they'll just opt for the pro tablet, which will be domain joinable.

 

[RudeCurve]

So... Uh, just letting you know... Your 22" screen at 36 inches has the same effective resolving area as a 11" screen at 18", which, I suspect is about how far you'd use your Wacom tablet, if it had a screen. Actually, I'd use it a bit closer, myself, that's how I do it when I'm drawing, and at closer than 17", the surface screen is actually larger than a 22" monitor at 3 feet.

I think your mistake is you think people will use this like a laptop or desktop, by having it far from their face. But they won't, it's a tablet, and will be used as one. Take a look at pictures of people using Cintiq tablets some time, they all hold them 18" or less from their face...

If I had one I would be using it just like a 10" netbook and using the integrated kickstand, foldout keyboard and mouse. I also need to type in dimensions and coordinates with the keyboard so I don't think holding it up in the air for hours modeling 3D objects will be comfortable.

All of the videos on YT I've watched have users using the 10" Wacom on a fixed stand, none of them were holding them up in the air. Also all of the videos were for 2D drawing/sketching/painting none for 3D modeling. The ones used for 3D had huge screens and if you look carefully you'll notice the actual application's rendering window is even smaller so on a 10" screen the window would be like 7-8". Not saying it can't be done on a 10" screen it's just that it won't be comfortable the way I and most CAD/CAM users would use it.

 

[ams]

Doubt it. Companies are a lot less price sensitive than general consumers, they'll just opt for the pro tablet, which will be domain joinable.

There is no question that most businesses will want a "Pro" version of Windows. The real question is whether or not it would be worthwhile to introduce Windows RT "Pro" at some point down the road. In the future there may be sufficient demand for something like that. Hell, many people on Microsoft's blog page are asking for it right now Microsoft is taking one step at a time. So the main focus of Windows RT right now is on the consumer space.

 

[ams]

OK, so in addition to Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote that will be included for free with Windows RT, there will be touch-optimized versions of Office 15 [codename] applications for purchase/download from Windows Store including the following: Access, Outlook, Publisher, InfoPath, Lync, SharePoint Workspace, Visio Viewer, My Site Documents.

Microsoft made a very purposeful and conscious decision to not support legacy [x86] apps with Windows RT. Porting of legacy apps and/or emulation of x86 hardware was simply not an efficient way to do things. By taking a fresh approach with the Windows RT operating system and software ecosystem, there will be so many future benefits. Feature set can be maximized, since apps will be designed with touch and web/cloud-connectivity in mind. Performance and battery life can be maximized, since apps will be designed to take advantage of new OS and hardware features. Security and stability can be maximized, since all apps will go through a certification process for distribution through the Windows Store. Certainly these are very interesting times for Microsoft and partners.

 

[RudeCurve]

Sold! Now if only the next Xbox had some W8 functionality...

 

[BadTB25]

OK, so in addition to Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote that will be included for free with Windows RT, there will be touch-optimized versions of Office 15 [codename] applications for purchase/download from Windows Store including the following: Access, Outlook, Publisher, InfoPath, Lync, SharePoint Workspace, Visio Viewer, My Site Documents.

Microsoft made a very purposeful and conscious decision to not support legacy [x86] apps with Windows RT. Porting of legacy apps and/or emulation of x86 hardware was simply not an efficient way to do things. By taking a fresh approach with the Windows RT operating system and software ecosystem, there will be so many future benefits. Feature set can be maximized, since apps will be designed with touch and web/cloud-connectivity in mind. Performance and battery life can be maximized, since apps will be designed to take advantage of new OS and hardware features. Security and stability can be maximized, since all apps will go through a certification process for distribution through the Windows Store. Certainly these are very interesting times for Microsoft and partners.

Please provide links for your info.

 

[bkilian]

Sold! Now if only the next Xbox had some W8 functionality...

What kind of W8 functionality would you like to see in a game console?

 

[bkilian]

If I had one I would be using it just like a 10" netbook and using the integrated kickstand, foldout keyboard and mouse. I also need to type in dimensions and coordinates with the keyboard so I don't think holding it up in the air for hours modeling 3D objects will be comfortable.

Using it like a laptop would be doing it a great disservice. It has a built in pen digitizer, it's essentially a 10" Cintiq tablet that doesn't need to be connected to anything. As I recall, most cad software has tablet-friendly ways of entering measurements, like tapping on a number and sliding left and right.

Think of it as a design tablet with an integrated pc, not as an ultra book. Don't rule it out for a purpose because you haven't seen it done before, there has never been a 1080p 10" windows pc with integrated high resolution digitizer before.

 

[french toast]

Where's your evidence for that? It can even be faster (I know, that's FP, but still). The consensus is that A9 is ~20% faster than A8, and Scorpion lies between the two. It's not 60% faster, which is what would be needed to explain that data if you assume that the second core is completely idle.
I found a chart with both versions of the One X:
http://cdn.androidadvices.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Smart-Phones-Benchmark-Results.png
I read it fine. You're making an implicit assumption that Intel has tapped out all optimizations while Google has lots of room left, and you have no basis for doing so. We'll see what happens when Linaro's work gets integrated and verified, and Intel/MS improves as well, but for the time being let's keep our assumptions unbiased.
Of course waiting will give us the final answer, but this entire thread is about speculation. You're not going to predict trends for the future very well if you wait for everything to play out...

Yo, for a start out side of pure sunspider exynos 4412 trounces medfield in vellamo and browsermak...which include sunspider.

As laurent 06 pointed out, the exynos is clocked lower...and medfield is not single thread..it's hyperthreaded...so it counts as a dual core..I doubt sunspider scales to 4 threads very efficiently.

Also one of arms advantages is the low power of the cores mad so the ability to run quad cores...which would not happen with Intel..at least in physical cores anyhow.

Medfield also doesn't deliver great battery life despite only carrying 2 threads, a weak gpu, a 4inch sub hd screen and the best manufacturing process....it compares with exynos 4210 @ 1.4 ghz @45nm....it's acceptable but not the best..even taking into consideration the battery size...anandtechs tests allude to that.

Likely your right about cloverview and a decent ssd....for basic tasks a duel core hyperthreaded atom at around 1.8ghz would be a good experience...not sure about battery life...

 

[Andrew Lauritzen]

Again, support for legacy [x86] business apps is irrelevant because the Surface RT tablet is a consumer-focused device. Forward-looking apps written for Windows RT will be touch optimized. There is no limit as to what touch optimized apps can be created in the future for Windows RT, it is just a question of doing it. Give it some time for goodness sake. The RT operating system is in it's infancy.

I'm well aware of the technical details. My point is that Windows RT offers nothing *over* standard Windows (Pro) for businesses, and currently it offers a whole lot less. There's no motivation to even develop Metro-based applications for businesses really, especially with the current state of affairs where they must all go through the Windows Store. You'll notice you don't see a lot of business work shifting to ipad apps...

 

[ams]

That is true (although there is ever increasing interest in using things like ipad in schools).

At some point, as ARM-based hardware becomes more pervasive, there may be enough demand for Microsoft to release Windows RT Pro and for software developers to release touch-optimized and web-connected business software for the Windows RT Pro platform.

 

[ams]

Please provide links for your info.

http://www.techradar.com/news/software/applications/microsoft-rumored-to-reveal-office-15-1089007

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx