Microsoft Surface tablets

[Silent_Buddha]

And what software were they using? That's the million dollar question. I don't doubt that many people don't have a problem running non demanding desktop software like Word/Excel/Powerpoint etc on small 10" widescreens but like I said, those types of software could be run on the RT so there's really no compelling argument in getting the Pro to run those unless these people don't already have a current desktop which is silly.

Sure I never said it was for everyone. You obviously think it's too small. And as I said, that's fine. And for your information while a lot of them are using word/excel/powerpoint and other office applications those aren't the only programs. Adobe CS suite is used extremely frequently as well (desktop publishing, web design, sketching and drawing, graphics design, etc.). The engineers are using CAD as well as other applications.

I'm willing to bet that my threshold is the bare minimum screen size for most people who do actual work using the type of software that I use while on the go.

So, only CAD users do "real" work and everyone else doesn't? What an extremely narrow definition. I'm sure all those people making 6 digit salaries and higher are glad to know they aren't working 8-10+ hours a day doing "real" work. BTW - CAD users are in the minority of people. Somehow I don't think Microsoft would be all that sad if they missed the bandwagon with CAD users but got all the other professional workers. That said, I'm pretty sure there will be a fair number of CAD users trying one out.

And I already addressed that point....in order to replace the desktop they will need to buy a bunch of external storage devices if they want to do serious desktop stuff and this all adds to the total cost of ownership. If they already have a powerful desktop with loads of storage and capabilites like me why would they ditch it just so they could claim "My Pro tablet is used as my desktop workstation now"? Doesn't compute. Sure you could sell your existing desktop but you'll be losing money AND paying more money to buy all this extra stuff just so you could call your portable a desktop replacement.

Chances are probably not. Every one of the people I mentioned above already have a desktop monitor, keyboard, mouse and external storage devices (single HDD, NAS, or home servers). You do know that external storage devices aren't uncommon even for people that don't actually do "real" work. So if they decide to replace their desktop, they wouldn't be losing out.

Quite a few of them have more powerful laptops and ultrabooks than they do desktops as they frequently travel and they find it more convenient to just use their laptops and ultrabooks while in the home. Hence their desktops are usually for family use or HTPC duty.

And I'm going to guess you'll be surprised by this, although you shouldn't be. They have actual desktop monitors, they hook up to their laptops and ultrabooks while at home. Wow, such a novel idea that has been done for the past 15+ years. It won't be any different for the Microsoft Surface.

Or how about this fact. I regularly hold my 11" Win7 slate close enough during use that it actually appears similar to my 24" monitor. Only problem is, my slate only has a resolution of 1366x768 which is much too low. Moving up to a 15" at 1366x768 wouldn't change that and magically make it more useable. Give me 1920x1080, or even better 1920x1200 and the screen suddenly becomes FAR FAR more useable.

Oh, and BTW - there's also people using CAD on Windows slates as low as 11.6" (Samsung Series 7 slate), 12.1" (Asus EP121). Unfortunately they are rather limited by the 1366x768 screen on the Samsung and the 1280x800 screen on the Asus. They are actually looking forward to a slate with a high resolution even if the screen is marginally smaller.

Regards,
SB

 

[BadTB25]

http://www.techradar.com/news/software/applications/microsoft-rumored-to-reveal-office-15-1089007

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx

Thanks.

Trying to keep up on the info and it's good at times to read it from the source.

 

[RudeCurve]

What kind of W8 functionality would you like to see in a game console?

If I purchased a standalone copy of W8, I'd like to be able to install it on the next Xbox and use it as a computer given that the innards will basically be powerful enough to be used as one. Something like a dual booting console.

 

[Mintmaster]

WTF are you talking about?

You are the one that started the 4:3 topic, not me. It doesn't matter if TV started a "trend". Virtually all of the world's 11"-15" LCD production goes into notebooks. If people found 4:3 useful, laptops would have that size, but they don't. Get over yourself. Your opinion is not worth more than that of the entire market.

The iPhone

Would you stop talking about the iPhone? You really think you're making a case that 11" is useless compared to 13" by pointing out that a <4" display isn't good enough? You have the logic of a 3 year old...

WTF does selling Mac Airs for $1000 have anything to do with using small screens for REAL WORK???

It has EVERYTHING to do with your argument, because you just told us that there's no use in sub-13" notebooks running Windows (and presumably OSX), since iOS/Android/RT is good enough.

Where is your study that says all of those Mac Airs being used for CAD/CAM?

All? You think MS or Apple tailor their products entirely for CAD/CAM? Are you that stupid?

Might want to click "Most Popular" next time...

I sorted by rating to show you expert opinion, since you think the opinion of everyone in this thread going against yours is some sort of anomaly. "Most popular" is based on some BS metric like clicks or something; instead, I just showed you hard production data that 12" and under is more popular than 13". Quite fitting that you ignored that...

So now my question to you is...are YOU seriously running AutoCAD on a 10" netbook?

Learn to read. I already answered that question.

 

[bkilian]

If I purchased a standalone copy of W8, I'd like to be able to install it on the next Xbox and use it as a computer given that the innards will basically be powerful enough to be used as one. Something like a dual booting console.

Yah, I wouldn't hold my breath. It would be much more likely that we provided some sort of app store with a subset of apps, since we're basically already doing that. Running desktop apps on an Xbox would be unlikely in the extreme.

 

[RudeCurve]

You are the one that started the 4:3 topic, not me.

Yeah to point out the fact 4:3 is actually useful because screens are measured diagonally. You couldn't refute it so you pretend everyone finds them undesirable and unuseful pointing to the fact the majority of screens are 16:9 as evidence that nobody wants 4:3 screens anymore...lol. The industry moved to 16:9 because that was what the TV industry moved to. It has nothing to do with nobody wanting 4:3 screens on laptops or being less useful.

It doesn't matter if TV started a "trend".

Sure it does, it shows that computer displays are copying TV displays for the sole reason of watching DVDs, video etc in widescreen format. It has little to do with people not wanting 4:3 screens. If there is no choice then the consumer has to buy whatever the computer makers sell or not have a computer. It's not rocket science man.

Virtually all of the world's 11"-15" LCD production goes into notebooks. If people found 4:3 useful, laptops would have that size, but they don't. Get over yourself. Your opinion is not worth more than that of the entire market.

Wrong...the industry is forcing adoption of a standard that started with TVs. If TVs all stayed at 4:3...you wouldn't see computers with 16:9 screens today...end of story.

Would you stop talking about the iPhone? You really think you're making a case that 11" is useless compared to 13" by pointing out that a <4" display isn't good enough? You have the logic of a 3 year old...

Given that you didn't get the point the first time going on about resolution, I had to use an extreme example to get you to see the light...don't complain to me if you're too dense to have gotten it the first time.

It has EVERYTHING to do with your argument, because you just told us that there's no use in sub-13" notebooks running Windows (and presumably OSX), since iOS/Android/RT is good enough.

Stop inventing stuff I never claimed. I said 10" is too small for real work like CAD/CAM. If you don't agree with my definition of real work then use your own definition. Apple selling millions of 11" Mac Airs does not prove they are running CAD/CAM on those little screens. Most likely they are running other apps which by my definition is not real work. Millions of people buy them because it's the cheapest way to own a Mac notebook...not because they want to spend $1000 on a 11" screen notebook to do word processing...plenty of $300 netbooks that could do that. Remember Apple has a loyal following....MS not so much...we'll see how popular or not the Pro will be soon enough.

You think MS or Apple tailor their products entirely for CAD/CAM? Are you that stupid?

Did I say they did? Lean how to read man.

I sorted by rating to show you expert opinion

Expert opinion? Are you fucking serious? Have you read some of the reviews from Cnet for various computing devices? I'm sorry but you lost ALL credibility right there man...btw what qualifications does one need to become an expert at rating notebooks? I remember awhile back reading a review from one of the "experts" at Cnet and she gave a certain electronic product a higher rating because it looked "cuter" than another competing product...

since you think the opinion of everyone in this thread going against yours is some sort of anomaly.

Not my fault you still haven't been able to make a strong case against my argument..hence inventing all sorts of scarecrows to prop up yours..

"Most popular" is based on some BS metric like clicks or something; instead, I just showed you hard production data that 12" and under is more popular than 13". Quite fitting that you ignored that...

LMFAO nice backpedal....since the CNET top list which you yourself volunteered to advertise didn't agree with your flawed argument you decided to shift goal posts..no surprise there...get over yourself man..

As for your chart, read it carefully and look at the trend...lol. The market for less than 12" notebooks is decreasing while for 13" it's steadily staying the same. Producing more doesn't always mean there's more demand, it could easily indicate the manufacturer wants to lower the cost through economies of scale so they could make more money on each unit sold.

Your ship has crashed burned and sunk man...

 

[Laurent06]

why do you think ARM has so much more room for optimization than Intel?

Because development of Google v8 (their JS JIT engine) for ARM was lagging way behind x86 a few months ago (this is one of the reasons ICS is run Sunspider faster on ARM than Gingerbread (by 70% on Galaxy Nexus), and why you won't probably get any such significant speedup on Intel phones when they get the upgrade). By now both branches are given the same attention.

Because Linaro showed how to significantly improve Andoid speed: they upgraded the compiler, changed the compilation flags, used a tuned C library. And they got a 30% speedup on Sunspider.

If I get some time, I'll try to compile and run Google v8 and run its benchmark suite on both a T3 dev board and an n330 Atom nettop, might be interesting :smile:

 

[Gubbi]

Using Sunspider to gauge CPU performance is pointless.

Sunspider measures Javascript performance, not CPU performance. On this machine I get 195 ms in Firefox 13, 235ms in Chromium 18 and 259ms in Opera 12, on a I7-2600s running Ubuntu 12.04. The slowest, Opera, is 32% slower than Firefox.

Sunspider isn't even a good browser benchmark, since it doesn't test rendering or DOM manipulation at all.

Games are being played here; Sunspider is the *only* thing Firefox does faster than the other two.

As for browser testing, dromaeu is much more comprehensive. As a first order approximation you can use the jQuery tests to measure real life browser performance.

Cheers

 

[Laurent06]

I certainly agree. Sunspider score was taken by many as the proof that Intel Medfield was faster than Cortex-A9 based SoCs, so that's why I insisted on it

 

[ams]

Microsoft will be offering their Surface RT tablet in two forms, one with 32GB and one with 64GB.

If rumors are correct, Microsoft intends to price the Surface RT at $599, presumably for the 32GB model. It is unclear whether or not Touch or Type keyboard will be included in the price or will be extra.

While the $599 price point for a 32GB Surface RT tablet will match the price point of a 32GB ipad, the 16GB ipad would still be $100 cheaper.

If I was pricing the Surface RT tablet, I would price the base Surface RT tablet at $499, and then offer a Touch or Type keyboard as a $99 accessory, with the expectation that most people will be interested in purchasing at least one of the keyboards at some point.

 

[bkilian]

Microsoft will be offering their Surface RT tablet in two forms, one with 32GB and one with 64GB.

If rumors are correct, Microsoft intends to price the Surface RT at $599, presumably for the 32GB model. It is unclear whether or not Touch or Type keyboard will be included in the price or will be extra.

While the $599 price point for a 32GB Surface RT tablet will match the price point of a 32GB ipad, the 16GB ipad would still be $100 cheaper.

If I was pricing the Surface RT tablet, I would price the base Surface RT tablet at $499, and then offer a Touch or Type keyboard as a $99 accessory, with the expectation that most people will be interested in purchasing at least one of the keyboards at some point.

Yah, I think 599 would be a mistake. The reason I got an iPad at all was because the 16GB was affordable. And don't forget they have the previous gen (which is nothing to sneeze at, my wife has one) at 399.

 

[ams]

Agreed. Let's face it, the ipad has set the max price that is commercially viable for a premium tablet computer in it's base configuration. Microsoft needs to understand that their Surface RT is first and foremost a tablet computer. It has to be marketed first and foremost as a tablet computer that has the flexibility of integrated kickstand and Touch/Type keyboards and the productivity benefit of MS Office Student and Home edition. The reality is that if the base configuration for Surface RT is $599 rather than $499, then Microsoft won't even be directly competing with Apple at the $499 price point. And next year, when the next ipad comes out, it will once again occupy the $499 price point, and the prior gen ipad will move down to the $399 price point. So if Microsoft truly wants to compete with Apple, they will have to be prepared to move in this step by step fashion too.

 

[eastmen]

$600 for a 32 gig surface is the same price as the 32 gig ipad is it not ?

I would agree that Ms should try and get the prices down. $550 for a 32 gig and $650 for a 64 gig Surface RT would be a good starting point imo esp with office home /student thrown in there.

The surface pro can't start at more than $800 imo or its going to have alot of trouble.

 

[zed]

MS will price roughly the same as the newest ipad (90% chance its an inferior machine technically to boot)
like I said before zune vs ipod history repeat. The problem is they do not like the idea of not being seen as topdog, thus dont want to be seen as competing on price, but MS the world has changed you are not apple.
I wrote this before but I'll repeat the new google tablet will outsell the new MS tablet. easy bet. Reason google realize trying to directly compete with apple is a no win situation (though if rumors are correct it looks apple might compete with them, cheaper 7" ipad)

 

[Andrew Lauritzen]

I wrote this before but I'll repeat the new google tablet will outsell the new MS tablet. easy bet.

I don't think a $200 device selling more than a $500+ device will be a surprise to anyone...

 

[ams]

MS will price roughly the same as the newest ipad (90% chance its an inferior machine technically to boot)

I don't think inferior is the right word compared to the current ipad. Certainly different. The Surface RT will have: faster quad-core CPU, better battery life, 1mm thinner chassis, integrated kickstand, a larger 10.6" Widescreen HD display for reduced or no letterboxing with widescreen movies, ClearType display technology to help make text appear clearer and sharper, Tegra 3 optimized games on Tegra Zone, a scratch-resistant chassis that is cool to the touch due to use of magnesium alloy, Touch or Type keyboard accessories, new operating system optimized for touch screens and ARM processors, free touch-optimized version of MS Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote. Of course, ipad is still very nice too, with rich apps and higher resolution display (although due to the extreme resolution, the performance can suffer just a bit in some instances). So while no tablet is perfect, let's give credit where credit is due.

 

[idsn6]

I don't think a $200 device selling more than a $500+ device will be a surprise to anyone...

Count me surprised if that $200 device outsells the $500+ iPad.

 

[eastmen]

Count me surprised if that $200 device outsells the $500+ iPad.

Andriod still lacks tablet apps in any decent number. MS will have a closer amount of tablet apps to google when the surface lanches later this year. Apple is far and away the best arm tablet out due to its support.

I don't even see the google nexus outselling the new fire

 

[rpg.314]

I don't even see the google nexus outselling the new fire

Why? It's not like the fire has a ton of apps.

 

[eastmen]

Why? It's not like the fire has a ton of apps.

Amazon has been working hard on getting support for the Fire in its app store. It has many more apps optimised for its size than andriod tablets do currently.


The new fire will most likely offer better specs and storage than nexus .