Microsoft Posts Huge Xbox Losses

When discussing the largest company in the world I am reasonably certain that they are somewhat more financially astute than a bunch of interweb nerds that can't even agree whether gamecube is #2 or #3!
I find it immensely disturbing that some of you appear to take great pleasure in the idea that any company may be making a loss, especially a US company when most of you are Americans!
Why not just fet a life, play some games and chill out with the fact that gameswise we've never had it so good! :D
 
If anyone ever bought their success then it was SONY!
How exactly? From what I've seen, all they've purchased is few small developers. Square share they have purchased is only because Square asked *them* to invest.
 
I said "Mature" market. UltimateTV doesn't count since set-top boxes are not a mature market.

I think you should mean "PVRs", as set-top boxes have been around for some 20-odd years...

When discussing the largest company in the world I am reasonably certain that they are somewhat more financially astute than a bunch of interweb nerds that can't even agree whether gamecube is #2 or #3!

Perhaps, but we aren't talking about the "largest" company in the world...
 
marconelly!:
How exactly?
Well, since you asked...

Despite admirable efforts to evangelize their PlayStation platform to third parties in '93 and '94 before its launch, Sony wasn't receiving anywhere near the level of support from the developer/publisher community as the market incumbants, SEGA and Nintendo, were already getting. At the time, Sony also lacked the first-party software ammunition of their competitors, so they certainly weren't planning to play the content card when it came to pushing PSX. The one advantage Sony did have, however, was that they were a lot larger than either of the other two leading manufacturers and much less conservative than Nintendo when it came to throwing around their cash.

Right off the bat, Sony used their larger pile of money for a strategic move against SEGA and their impending introduction of Saturn. At that point in the industry's development, it wasn't unheard of for a console manufacturer to take a small loss ($10-$25) on hardware initially in order to reach a desired price point. It wasn't standard practice, though, for it meant the manufacturer would be absorbing tens of millions of dollars of losses on hardware. Sony, backed by their mountains of cash, decided to outdo everyone before them and take an initial loss of at least double what anyone else had been willing to risk. They were gambling with an upfront loss/investment in the hundreds of millions of dollars, something they knew they'd be able to cope with more easily than their competition would. Coupling that with the wise decision to build a console that was cheaper to manufacture than SEGA's, Sony was able to drastically undercut the Saturn's pricepoint at a near head-to-head November 1994 Japanese launch.

This didn't stop SEGA from leading in sales, though. In Japan, the Saturn convincingly outsold the PSX initially despite Sony throwing a lot more cash at advertising. Sony had some back-up plans, though, and wouldn't you guess it... it involved more money.

Sony began to break the stranglehold Nintendo and SEGA had on the third-party community by continuing to undercut them on royalty fee pricing for third-party software in addition to offering more publishing incentives, cash and otherwise, for timed exclusivity on certain software releases. They were also planning the biggest coup yet - securing the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest franchises for PSX. While Square did want to move away from Nintendo and their decision to support cartridges with the N64 platform, the Saturn offered them a CD-based platform too. Not only that, but Square was one of the more technically capable devs around and could've tackled the difficulties of Saturn development as well as anyone. It certainly would've been worth it, seeing as the SEGA Saturn was the 32-bit market leader in Japan, by far the primary and largest market for those RPGs.

SEGA had been struggling of late financially due to a slow transition from 16-bit to 32-bit, and Sony could smell the blood. Knowing full well about their competitor's recent money struggles, Sony fired a deliberate kill shot by launching and hyping a significant price drop for the PSX much earlier than anyone expected. They was playing more dangerously with money than anyone in the industry had dared before. They fully intended to drag SEGA into a pricing war early to capitalize on the company's money problems, and SEGA knew they had to respond if they intended to participate in the escalating console war.

What this key move of Sony's did was to competely throw the already-troubled Saturn business plan out the window. SEGA had been pricing their console higher than Sony because of manufacturing costs and the inability to be as risky as their deep-pocketed competitor, and they were depending on a normal pricing scale to lead them to sufficient profitability during the pay-off years of the traditional console cycle. Sony's much-earlier-than-expected move forced SEGA to push back the Saturn's pay-off date a lot further. They knew that by forcing SEGA to delay intake from their primary source of income, the company would soon be in trouble.

The coup came through, and Square and Enix pledged the next update in their RPG franchises to Sony. The financial arrangement Sony reached was not simply to bring those titles titles to PSX, but expressly to keep them off of the Saturn. To the impartial observer, it was a strange move indeed to see the holders of the biggest RPG franchises actually announce that their new games were coming to PSX only and not at all to the biggest next-gen console in Japan at the time, the Saturn. Sony made sure there was no room for ambiguity - there would be no talk from Square of Final Fantasy 7 eventually being ported to Saturn some time down the line. In fact, Sony's exclusivity on certain chapters of the Final Fantasy series continues on into the PS2 era.

Well... SEGA reacted to match the price war and took extremely steep losses on their hardware. After launching early in the US to move initial units at a necessarily high price point of $399, they eventually dropped the price in the US, too, and took close to an estimated $100+ loss on each hardware unit for a while. Sony's RPG coup had come through, and the PSX started outselling the Saturn almost instantly after that in Japan. Sony blitzed the US airwaves with the most expensive ad campaign yet for their 1995 international launch, and the Saturn simply wasn't seeing the level of sales SEGA was counting on from the pricedrop.

Sony's money forced SEGA to play a game they couldn't afford if they wanted to stay in their market, and Sony's deal spending helped seal SEGA's fate by delivering them lower-than-expected, and needed, sales. Sony's methods for spending made the market of console manufacturing too rich for SEGA's blood, mishandled business strategies and console launches on SEGA's part or not. Sony's only card to play in the beginning was money, and they buried their better-selling competition eventually by outspending them.

Sony's practices changed the nature of the videogame market into one which required BIG BIG money, and they have only theirselves to blame for attracting a BIG BIG money competitor like Microsoft. It's funny to hear certain people complain that Microsoft is trying to get by in the industry solely with money, especially since Sony's PlayStation division has outspent Microsoft's Xbox division all along. It's also funny to hear them complain that Microsoft, with purcahses of Bungie and Rare, are trying to buy their way to victory when Sony was the company that invested in Squaresoft. Forget Vivendi, Rare, or Bungie... Squaresoft is one of the most important publishers worldwide in the console industry. It's like buying into Konami or EA! And it doesn't matter who went to who asking for the deal; Sony was still the company that bought into such a major player - not anyone else (though, probably not for a lack of trying.)
 
I see you keep talking that Sony undercut the price of PSX below Saturn, but is there any actual proof that they've done that, and not actually made the hardware that was just that much less expensive to manufacture than Sega's?

Even is Sony did purchase Square and Enix exclusive games (is there any proof for that either?) what was keeping Nintendo and Sega to try to outbid them? I don't know for Sega, but Nintendo has always had a lot of accumulated cash in the bank, and it's not like they didn't tried to make their own videogame hegemony back in the day.

So they had lower developer fees which consecutively made the games cheaper? Good thing! Games are still too expensive, if you ask me, and if the prices were dictated by Nintendo, I would probably have less than half the games I have right now. If someone figured out that it might be better to make more money selling more units with lower profit margin, I'm OK with that, and I wouldn't call that 'buying your way into the industry'.
 
The PSX was greatly cheaper to manufacture than the Saturn was. Less chips to produce means less cost to make. Also the motherboard for the Saturn was a lot more complex having to implement paralell processing so late in the design. It just cost more to make overall, and that greatly contributed to the Saturn's high cost at launch.

Sony may have bought its way into the market, but it clearly wasn't the only factor to lead to its success. With successful marketing, a lower priced machines, more games that appealed to the mainstream, and ease of developer use is what brought the PSX its success and market domination. Of course SEGa helped along with all this by doing the exact opposite with the Saturn that Sony did with the Playstation. Final Fantasy VII was originally in development for both the Saturn and PSX, but Sony did make a deal with Square where it would publish the game in the US if it were exclusive to the PSX. That's what happened, I don't know how much money was involved if any of it was, but it kind of guaranteed Sony victory in Japan. And FF7 helped out a lot in the US too. Sony making deals with developers to get exclusive games to its system was a great move, something SEGA failed to do. It was just as muhc SEGA's fault for the PSX's domination as it was Sony's fault for Saturn's complete and dismal failure.

Saturn still had some of the best games ever though.

So what's so different from MS's tactics in the industry now than Sony's in last generation? Nothing, except for the fact that MS has to throw much more money at the problem to gain any sort of ground, which it is doing. Slowly and surely MS is making ground. But while MS is making ground, Sony is walking on the moon.
 
Lazy, I think that while your writing skills in terms of lenght are excellent, your arguement has several holes. The market´s conditions weren´t in the least like today´s.

First off, I don´t think Sony´s PSX was so costly at the time of it´s launch. AFAIK, that is only speculation. I think it was much more of a case of better planning by Sony.

Moving on, Sega´s Saturn was a very complicated piece of hardware at the time, true. However, if you recall, there is a reason why FFVII, the first ever 3D FF, used gouraud shading - Square was completely unexperienced in the 3D developing arena. PSX offered them an easy architecture to work with with a huge (at the time) storage capacity. That played a huge role in them deciding to develop for the PSX, and I´m confident that was the same case with Enix. It also helped that Sony had never been been involved in any System Wars previously, so they could get very pleasing contracts.

Although I definitely think money must have been a factor of their success, I doubt that it´d be the definite one. If Nintendo had decided to use CDs for their upcoming system, N64, I doubt Squaresoft or Enix would have ever left Nintendo, no matter how many ceroes Sony´s check had.

And to counter the "low fees" point, I feel that it had much more to do with Nintendo´s arrogance of unprecedented magnitude. It was planning a much more controlled (and hostile) developing environment (does anyone remember the "Dream Team"?), while also thinking they could get away with cartdridges while both of its competitors had a much more viable and comfortable for developers storage medium.

Oh, and IIRC Sony "was asked" (not sure of how true this really is) to invest in Squaresoft by Square themselves. Other than that, Sony has helped to expand and consolidate small development studios, rather than buying out existing ones.:)
 
Despite admirable efforts to evangelize their PlayStation platform to third parties in '93 and '94 before its launch, Sony wasn't receiving anywhere near the level of support from the developer/publisher community as the market incumbants, SEGA and Nintendo, were already getting.

This is only a partial truth. In early '93 yes Sony had no end to difficulties in getting any developer interest. However VF changed all that with Namco (engaged in fierce competition with SEGA in 3D arcade gaming). Then of course there was the Dino demo along with the targetted price Sony was aiming at...

The one advantage Sony did have, however, was that they were a lot larger than either of the other two leading manufacturers and much less conservative than Nintendo when it came to throwing around their cash.

While Sony was a less conservative than other CE companies, it wasn't something you could compare with Nintendo (let alone SEGA). Besides, there was a ton of resistence within the company towards getting involved in videogames.

Sony was also able to not only able to manufacture the PSX for lower costs (an advantage from already being a consumer electronics manufacture), but they were also able to reduce costs by leveraging components from existing product lines.

Also, they radically changed the distribution model to leverage the advantage of CD media (not to mention they used their own facilities to manufacture CDs, included deferring music production to ensure game orders were met). Even though the Saturn was CD based, SEGA stuck with the cart model and failed to exploit the advantage of repeat production with CD early on...

Sony also made major changes in it's advertising campaign to appeal to a broader audience once they obtained a critical mass share. Something SEGA also never did... Thus the PSX began to appeal to a broader audience that SEGA largely ignored and would never reach (or Nintendo for that matter).

The coup came through, and Square and Enix pledged the next update in their RPG franchises to Sony. The financial arrangement Sony reached was not simply to bring those titles titles to PSX, but expressly to keep them off of the Saturn.

Wasn't much of a coup (at least for SEGA, more for Nintendo, but considering Nintendo's behavior at the time, it was somewhat well deserved)... Both wanted to develop on CD, yet neither was really interested in the Saturn (this I definately know!)...
 
there was the Dino demo
I heard about this famed PSX Dino demo, but never got to seeing it. Dino demo? What Dino demo? Archiez you have the pic? :oops:
 
archie4oz said:
Perhaps, but we aren't talking about the "largest" company in the world...

Doesn't Microsoft still have the highest market cap of any company? Isn't that how size is usually measured?
 
As mentioned: MS can only throw in a certain amount of money before they hit the natural brick wall and any more gives no effect. The question is can that $x be matched by Sony? If it can't, then certainly the gap is much lower than the Sony -> Sega money gap.
 
Ozymandis:
Isn't that how size is usually measured?
The relevance of size, or more accurately wealth for our discussion, is the amount of funds and flexibility to move them around quickly as needed. It's really all about spending power. Some companies may have more total assets, but many of those companies couldn't liquify or rechannel that wealth into new projects as needed without a lot of wasted time and overhead. They might be richer than Microsoft, but they are also slower moving as well, which decreases their spending power and effectiveness in a dynamic market.
 
DVFtaxman:

> When discussing the largest company in the world

Microsoft isn't the largest company by any meassure.

> especially a US company when most of you are Americans!

Take your patriotic BS elsewhere.

> Why not just fet a life, play some games and chill out with the fact that
> gameswise we've never had it so good!

Why don't you follow your own advice?

Buh-bye!



Lazy8s:

I can't be bothered reading all that drivel but I did notice this:

> SEGA had been struggling of late financially due to a slow transition
> from 16-bit to 32-bit

Sega had been struggling because even then it was horribly mismanaged. Don't blame Sony for Sega's ineptness.
 
deeppak,

This is the same thing that happened last year at this time. Consoles sell much more slowly through te first 5 months of the year and lowering hardware orders is just part of that. Also, MS could have a a large number of stock left from from before christmas.
 
I may be wrong here - I wasn't much into consoles untill about a year into PSone - but isn't a lot of Sony's succes usually attributed to the fact that the PlayStation was a genuine 3D machine - as opposed to Saturn being designed more for 2D?
 
Well for one thing, saturn was a complete pain int he ass to program for. I worked for graymatter back then and they were one of the first companies to get a sega saturn development kit (close relationship with sega).

Anyway, once sega heard what Sony had planned with the Playstation (and how powerful it was) Sega added the second SH2 processor VERY late in the game. They hoped that would make things close in the 3D area, but it never really did. that second chip really ade things difficult if you wanted to get good performance out of the system

Also, Sony had a rule in the first year that EVERY game had to be 3D. there were a few exceptions but this rule stood sstrong in nroth america. This would make things a little more difficult on sega since they weren't as strong in that department.
 
cybamerc said:
DVFtaxman:

> When discussing the largest company in the world

Microsoft isn't the largest company by any meassure.

> especially a US company when most of you are Americans!

Take your patriotic BS elsewhere.

> Why not just fet a life, play some games and chill out with the fact that
> gameswise we've never had it so good!

Why don't you follow your own advice?

Buh-bye!

Well then this quote must be incorrect then you jumped up *****! Maybe you'd like to do your own research next time, before acting like an ignorant school kid?.....and don't EVER acuse me of being a patriotic american!

June 18, 2002 | Paul Thurrott
Microsoft is World's Largest Company

This week, Microsoft surpassed General Electric to become the world's largest company, as measured by market value. Microsoft's move into the number one spot came thanks to a small stock price increase, which gave the company a market capitalization of over $299 billion. GE, by contrast, has a market capitalization of just over $295 billion.

Microsoft had held the number one spot once before, when it pushed past GE for most of 1999. But GE had been ranked number one since April 2000, after a brief stint behind Cisco Systems. Microsoft, Cisco, and GE, of course, have been hit hard by the sliding economy. Despite being among the largest companies in the world, both Microsoft and GE have market capitalizations that are less than half their peak values.

Microsoft will unleash a torrent of new products this fall in a bid to keep investors happy, however. Chief among these products are Windows XP Service Pack 1 (SP1), Windows .NET Server, "Mira," "Freestyle," and the Tablet PC. Then, the company will jump aboard the beta treadmill once again with field tests of new product versions, including Office 11--due in 2003--and Windows "Longhorn," which probably won't ship until 2004. Both Office 11 and Longhorn will begin testing before the end of 2002, the company has said.
 
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