Microsoft Posts Huge Xbox Losses

Why do you think that?

Because MS are already making this sort of massive loss while competing with a company that is making a profit on everything and basically isn't trying to compete at all (Nintendo and to a lesser extent even Sony). Nintendo are profiting even on the console itself, they're barely spending anything on advertising, they're not giving away free games ect. There making massive profits and still doing as well as MS who're making even more massive losses.

So what happens when Nintendo decide that XBox actually is a threat and they need to compete? They then decide they're happy only making $500 million profits this year rather then $900 million :) They increase advertising, they drop console prices, they give away games ect. To compete MS then have to do the same.. drop console prices, give away even more free games, do even more advertising. God forbid that Sony ever decide that XBox is a threat to them and start to turn the thumb screws.

When both Nintendo and Sony decide that XBox is a real threat to them and decide they need to really compete then XBox's losses will go as high as they are going to get.

I'm not saying MS won't be able to handle the losses, only that the losses we're seeing now are not peak IMO.

BTW when I say that Nintendo don't consider XBox a threat I don't mean I agree with Nintendo that it isn't a threat to them right now. I'm just saying that by Nintendo's own actions they haven't seemed worried by XBox yet, but that might be changing soon.
 
Xbox forced Sony to drive the price of PS2 consoles down faster than it would otherwise have fallen.
Maybe for a month or two. The price drop cycle is a common knowledge, and would happen before the christmas, MS or no MS.

Xbox Live! proved that broadband console gaming works, and forced Sony to accellerate and improve their broadband plans.
I really don't see what Sony did improve in their broadband plans. If anything, they were postponed them a lot and scaled down from their original intentions of delivering the entertainment content on top of just game playing.

Microsoft's developer support is so good that it forced Sony and Nintendo to significantly improve their developer support. (Which means better third-party games for PS2 and GC.)
In my opinion this is so completely off base that I don't know where to start. I would like you to tell me precisely what are those improvements that Sony and Nintendo made to accomodate for Xbox's 'great' developer support (which I really don't see all that much in the first place)

Xbox being in the market has forced Sony and Nintendo to lose a LOT of money as well. Probably close to $1 billion in price reduction losses. If every time MS loses $1 billion their competitors lose $1 billion, then they will eventually drive the competition out of business. They can outspend anyone.
I guess you have missed the latest Sony's earning report where it shows PS2 business is their by far most profitable venture now. Since long ago, they are not losing any money on it, but making lots of it instead. PS2 price was reduced only when they could make it for less than that price.
 
Teasy said:
So what happens when Nintendo decide that XBox actually is a threat and they need to compete? They then decide they're happy only making $500 million profits this year rather then $900 million :) They increase advertising, they drop console prices, they give away games ect. To compete MS then have to do the same.. drop console prices, give away even more free games, do even more advertising. God forbid that Sony ever decide that XBox is a threat to them and start to turn the thumb screws.

Nintendo hasn't seen the Playstation2 (which is pounding the stuffing out of them in the market) as a threat. Why then would the Xbox be a threat? Especially because at this point the Xbox is going almost-exclusively after the older market, and Nintendo the younger one.

Furthermore, I don't see where Nintendo is in a position to make the same sorts of sacrifices as MS can... and their history suggests that even if they could, they would be unwilling to.


Now Sony, on the other hand...
 
Xbox being in the market has forced Sony and Nintendo to lose a LOT of money as well. Probably close to $1 billion in price reduction losses. If every time MS loses $1 billion their competitors lose $1 billion, then they will eventually drive the competition out of business. They can outspend anyone.

I didn't even see this comment until you quoted it marconelly. To whoever actually said this.

Wow, your really way off on this.

If every time MS's lose $1 billion they force Nintendo to make similar losses then yeah they would drive Nintendo out of business eventually, because yes they can outspend anyone. But the problem with that is.. well its just no true, nowhere even close. Its more like for every $1 billion MS lose on XBox Nintendo make $2 billion on GC :)
 
Nintendo hasn't seen the Playstation2 (which is pounding the stuffing out of them in the market) as a threat. Why then would the Xbox be a threat?

Nintendo knew they couldn't catch PS2, and they didn't need to (second is fine for them). However there is allot less room in the market for 3 consoles then 2. I really don't think Nintendo will be happy with third place. If MS continue the way they are going with there mad game giveaways and advertising ect Nintendo will decide that they need to compete allot harder then they are right now.

Furthermore, I don't see where Nintendo is in a position to make the same sorts of sacrifices as MS can

Why would Nintendo have to make the same sacrifices MS are making (making massive losses)? As I said all Nintendo need to do is decide that this year they're happy less profit then usual. Leaving MS having to make even bigger losses on XBox.
 
So what if MS is losing money on the Xbox. They were prepared to spend $5 billion to get into the market if you don't remember. And MS is here to stay in the videogame industry. Microsoft is more than prepared to take massive losses on the Xbox before it ever turns a profit. It wouldn't even surprise me if MS doesn't care what losses it makes now, because knowing the MS business strategy, it's always their 2nd version of something that truly gains mass market appeal.

As for Nintendo and Sony not thinking MS is a threat, Sony sure does. When Sony publicly states that it may release the PS3 earlier than expected because MS might release the Xbox2 around the same time frame then it shows Sony thinks MS is a threat. Nintendo doesn't really have to worry so much since the GCN is doing just fine and since they sell the most games on the system it will reap the most profits. And they still have the GBA to make them billions.

Microsoft is a fierce competitor and is willing to do whatever it takes to get a decent size of the console market, and it will fight even more when the Xbox 2 and PS3 roll around. I'm sure MS and Sony don't consider Nintendo a factor when it comes to the next generation simply because they are going in different directions with their future consoles that Nintendo will most likely stick with games and games only.

MS and Sony both want to control the living room and have a massive world wide network that brings entertainment in each and every different way.

Sony has IBM backing it up, and to be honest, right now it looks like IBM's ambitions for the network and its plans is the best looking solution for now.
 
As for Nintendo and Sony not thinking MS is a threat, Sony sure does. When Sony publicly states that it may release the PS3 earlier than expected because MS might release the Xbox2 around the same time frame then it shows Sony thinks MS is a threat.

I didn't say that Sony don't see MS as a threat. I said that Sony don't see XBox as a threat. Obviously its a competitor, but Sony certainly aren't pushing the boat out to fight XBox.
 
Johnny Awesome said:
Well, there are 9 million Xbox gamers out there who will be buying games for the next 3 years, for starters. :)

1 billion / 9 million = 111 dollar per xbox owner in order to break even.

(and 1 billion il a low estimation IMO.)

how many games to sell in order to make 111 dollar of profit ?

Hardware price reductions

and more losses...

higher userbase, more 1st party software sales.... wait until 2005 and you'll see it my way. :)

we'll see. i'm not a medium. i can't predict future.
 
Glonk:

> "Huge" is relative to the company supporting it, regardless of divisions
> and where profit comes from.

Even to a company like M$ $348 million is a lot of money. It sure as hell is not something that pleases investors. It's also an absurdly large amount of money to lose in the second year of a "console's" life. Sony was turning af profit on the PS2 at this point. Nintendo of course was making money from day 1 (the minor loss on hardware was more than made up for by software sales).



Johnny Awesome:

> Wow, that's low!

You also said that the last time. Do you enjoy making an ass of yourself repeatedly?

> I figured they would have lost around $1 billion by now.

They have.

> If they've only lost $528 mil in 1.5 years

You're a dumbass. They lost $528 million in six months. Learn to read or stay the fuck away.

> Xbox is in good shape.

Not fiscally.

> $528 mil in losses over 9 months is only $705 million over a year.

That's the second time you get it wrong.

> That's totally acceptable.

It shouldn't be.

> Not bad at all.

Please.

> Xbox being in the market has forced Sony and Nintendo to lose a LOT
> of money as well.

I think you should keep your economic evaluations to yourself.

> If every time MS loses $1 billion their competitors lose $1 billion

Haha... you are stupid.

> They can outspend anyone.

That much is true.

> Upcoming releases:

Several of those are coming out next year.

> Xbox will probably break even.

It's looking increasingly unlikely.

> wait until 2005 and you'll see it my way

You expect him to turn blind by then?



Jon Brittan:

> but then I also doubt XBox will remain as unprofitable as it has been so
> far

Even so they will have to start turning a profit soon if they are to merely break even.



simplicity:

> News of large losses on Xbox seems to please some people, because
> (I guess) they think it indicates that the Xbox's current success is
> unsustainable

Certainly anyone should be sceptical when a product's only justification for existance is the money it's creator rakes in on other businesses.

> Xbox Live! proved that broadband console gaming works

Please. Let's see how it performs when the first year is up and headsets and games are no longer parts of the package. Or should I say "if"... I don't actually expect M$ to switch over to a monthly fee straight away. It will keep offering another year with complimentary incentives to sign up.

The fact is that right now they're not even close to being profitable on Xbox Live. They may have sold about 400k Live Kits at this point at 50 bucks each but that is just a fraction of the total investment, especially when you consider that from the 50 bucks you need to subtract retailer profits, manufacturing costs, headset costs and licensing fees leaving little for M$.



bryanb:

> Now exactly why are XBox losses going to decrease?

They will decrease in Q3 for the simple reason that M$ will sell a whole lot less Xbox'es than the previous quarters. That's to be expected and Sony and Nintendo will face a similar situation. With the Sega bundle being phased out and a new one yet to be announced the losses per unit will diminish. I wouldn't be surprised to see losses fall to $50-100 million for this quarter assuming no new special deals are introduced. A price cut is expected in May and sales will increase as we move into the year so Q4 losses will increase once again.

> Rare will probably turn into one of the worst acquistions in gaming
> history.

I agree. If for no other reason that they simply paid more than Rare is worth.

> MS can't reduce the cost of the XBox like Sony and Nintendo can on
> their hardware.

This is not true. M$' situation is a bit different because it negotiatied worse deals than Nintendo did and the Xbox in itself is significantly more expensive to manufacture but other than that they're in the same boat. Sony of course is in the best position having designed much of the PS2 hardware itself, having it's own fabs and in general just selling a whole lot more driving costs down further.

> However, its highly unlikely that the costs to produce a Pentium III 800
> mhz is going to be dropping for Intel. No one except MS is buying these
> chips anymore.

They just underclock them. The chip in itself is nothing special. The harddrives in the Xbox are also larger than the 8 gb available to the user.



Glonk:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they increase because for the first
> figure, the Xbox wasn't even available the whole time

It went up from the previous quarter as well where the loss was $177 million.

The $180 million loss in Q2 2001, up from $68 million the previous quarter (Xbox launched Q2 2001), represented about a month and half of Xbox sales.



Magnum PI:

> i think MS losses on xbox have easily surpassed 1 billion..

They are way past.

The problem is that you can't just look at the Home and Entertainment unit for answers. R&D costs (Xbox and Xbox Live) are placed elsewhere, same with acquistions (Bungie, Rare and more to come) and marketing. All in all M$ are probably down $3-4 billion with Xbox. Clearly some of them investments are long term but that still leaves you with approximately $2 billion and with no profits for the forseeable future the Xbox is looking increasingly unlikely to ever break even, much less be profitable when all is said and done.
 
$1 billion it is (sorry I read the figures wrong at the beginning). It seems my predictions were right on the money. :)

MS is doing fine. MS forced the industry to drop pricing by $50 US per unit. That's a LOT of money that Nintendo and Sony would have received otherwise. That's what I'm talking about. I realize that Sony and Nintendo are both profitable, but that's not the point.

Look at it this way (thought experiment, so relax everyone):

Imagine that MS gets so ruthless that they decide to take loses of $3 billion annually instead of $1 billion and that this forces both Sony and Nintendo into a situation where they each have to take $1 billion out of their own revenues to stay competitive. This would force both the PS2 and Cube divisions into a loss situation, which would force both Sony and Nintendo as companies into a loss situation. MS on the other hand would still be profiting $8 billion instead of $11 billion annually and shareholders would probably not pull the plug.

MS has the capacity to really hurt Sony and Nintendo if they chose to. The only reason they don't price the Xbox at $99 right now is that they wouldn't be able to capitalize completely on the price difference. There aren't enough Xbox games that appeal to prospective PS2 and Cube owners right now. The Xbox brand isn't strong enough for this move - YET.

Eventually, the Xbox brand will be strong enough that it will be comparable in the minds of the mass market to Playstation. This might take until 2005 or even 2006, which is why Sony doesn't want to allow Xbox any more time to acquire brand power, but it will eventually happen.

When this happens and consumers see PS3 and Xbox2 brands (hardware + software) as equivalent, then the hardware at the lower price point will sell better. It's that simple. So that gets into a bidding war (low price), where Sony can't win against a determined MS.

Right now it's easy for Sony, because casual gamers say: "Playstation rules, what's Xbox got?", but eventually enough people will learn to appreciate the Xbox as its library of titles expands and the genre coverage gets better.

The other thing is that as prices lower MS stands to gain more than Sony in the long run. Tons of gamers already have a PS2, but many PS2 owners are "interested" in an Xbox. At $99 and with the right games (some say that will be this year, some say that will be never, some say next year, etc...), MS would probably sell a lot of Xbox hardware to PS2 owners. This is bad for Sony because it would really hurt their attach rate in the later years of the PS2's life. Multiplatform third party games, with a few exceptions, have a better attach rate on Xbox than PS2, because of the additional power of the system.

Sony has won this generation. No doubt about it, but Xbox will be a strong enough brand by 2005 that MS can force Sony to take unbearable losses on PS3. Cell isn't going to save Sony for the simple reason stated by Marconnelly, Ben and others: All the consoles will be powerful enough and the content will be the only thing that matters. Hence the acquisition of Bungie, Climax, Rare, and others to bolster the Xbox 2 lineup.
 
Xbox forced Sony to drive the price of PS2 consoles down faster than it would otherwise have fallen.

What? By a comperative point in it's lifetime, PSOne was at $149 by now. Microsoft forced Sony to drop it's price more for PR reasons, than for sheer lack of sales.

If anything, your line of argument has placed you in a horrible position as it's easily turnable. For example, Microsoft had it's first price drops months sooner than PS2 did comperable - and it's on more advanced hardware (With a Harddrive.. ohh, yes!) and console gamers only care about graphics, remember the MS ads? Thats pathetic. Or how many games are bundled with an XBox just so it can sell "ONLY" 1/2 less than PS2?

So say that MS has any pull in this industry is overstepping your ability to defend that position. All they can do is make Sony lower their prices sooner by pre-empting them - but in fact, it's hurting MS more - both threw profits and the fact that an inferior PS2 is still outselling them even threw MS's desperation.

Xbox Live! proved that broadband console gaming works, and forced Sony to accellerate and improve their broadband plans.

Correct me If I'm wrong; but the origional plan (pre-XBox) was to have PS3 be the hub/broadband platform. Only around the time of XBox's rumors and announcement did PS2 gain much of this functionality - which was dropped again by SCEA when the XBox threat failed to materialize.

Truth is, Kaz is probobly too busy counting his bonus.
 
The other thing is that as prices lower MS stands to gain more than Sony in the long run. Tons of gamers already have a PS2, but many PS2 owners are "interested" in an Xbox

Obviously I disagree. I don't see how MS 'gains more' by having some of the pre-existing PS2 userbase buy an XBox and continue to support the PS2 at the same time.

Also, it's the PS2 which is expanding the gaming userbase - not MS. By acclamating these new users to Sony consoles, they're just increasing their recognition and peopel who will buy them next time.

It's these people, the ones beyond the 30Million console point which will most likely only purchase one console - this being a Sony one. It's also this group which is growing and will be the catalyst for the future expansion and MS/Sony's ambitions.

PS. Is your post more Pro-MS or mine more Pro-Sony? We should have a poll.. :)
 
but Xbox will be a strong enough brand by 2005 that MS can force Sony to take unbearable losses on PS3
Maybe, but in reality, the only way I can see that happening is if they put all the force behind the Xbox, which is something I don't see happening. They have (and will have) much more important businesses to back up.

They have already stated they will put 2 billion dolars behind current and future Xbox project, which is something Sony and Nintendo can match easily, but even if they go all way out, what exactly can they do? Give the consoles away for free? Is that even allowed? Advertise 24h a day? That's more than likely counter productive as people would start boycotting your product...

There's only so much money can do before throwing it away stops making any sense and Microsoft knows that. If they could put AOL away by throwing even more money into MSN I'm sure they would. However, it's not happening. Same goes for MSNBC, which is just another news channel now, and I remember people saying how it's going to steamroll over CNN and Fox when the Microsoft acquired it.
 
bryanb said:
There is always redesign required when moving to a smaller process. You don't know anything about microchip production do you?
I'm not sure you understand...the Pentium III already exists on the 0.13 process. Why would they need to move it to 0.13 when it's already at 0.13?

All Intel needs to do is make some more chips that they're already doing on 0.13, and zap off the extra cache it won't use. They've done that before, it's not outside their capabilities...

It all comes down to the fact that only 9 million XBoxes have been sold and there is no pending increase in the amount that people are purchasing. In fact, there is every chance that the US market will reach saturation as everyone's growth figures for that market have been shown to be too high.
I strongly disagree. First, Xbox sales have been increasing, so I hacve no idea why you don't think there's a pending increase in the amount of people that are purchasing. Especially since we're discussing reducing costs, which would lead to additional price drops, which leads to more people purchasing...

Second, I don't think the US market is close to being saturated with Xboxes. It's getting very common these days with even mainstream gamers to get multiple consoles, that's where most of Xbox's sales are coming from these days. If we were applying a simple rule of 1 console per person, even then we're not even close to the saturation point for the American market. I have no idea where you're coming from...
 
Teasy said:
Because MS are already making this sort of massive loss while competing with a company that is making a profit on everything and basically isn't trying to compete at all (Nintendo and to a lesser extent even Sony). Nintendo are profiting even on the console itself, they're barely spending anything on advertising, they're not giving away free games ect. There making massive profits and still doing as well as MS who're making even more massive losses.
Can you link to a source about Nintendo profiting from the console? Last time I heard they broke even almost exactly at the $149US pricepoint.

Sure, Nintendo's turning a profit on their Gamecube business, but it's going downhill. The Gamecube is being squeezed out in favor of the Xbox in Europe and North America, and Nintendo finally realized it. They can keep posting tiny profits while their marketshare sinks compared to MS and Sony, or they can try to increase their marketshare by increasing their costs...in this case, offering a free game. It's only the start, but that's the direction Nintendo's going in.

'quote]So what happens when Nintendo decide that XBox actually is a threat and they need to compete? They then decide they're happy only making $500 million profits this year rather then $900 million :) [/quote]
And then they're happy with $250M in profits rather than $900M. Then it's $100M instead of $250M. Then it's $10M instead of $100M... Then they just give up.

Or maybe they'll increase costs and become competitive like MS and Sony, selling the hardware at a loss initially, until they increase marketshare? If they do, kiss their tidy little profit goodbye for the Gamecube unit. Most of Nintendo's profit is coming from the GBA, byt he way...

I'm not saying MS won't be able to handle the losses, only that the losses we're seeing now are not peak IMO.
So please help me out here, you still haven't explained it.
In what way will the Xbox's loss increase when they've got a larger install base than ever (== higher game sales == higher revenues from royalties), when console costs are lower, and when a ton of big name games come out?
 
Glonk said:
If we were applying a simple rule of 1 console per person, even then we're not even close to the saturation point for the American market. I have no idea where you're coming from...

Good god, what is this horse manure: "simple rule of 1 console per person"?

Yeah right, they're just going to modify chips off the banias production line and throw them into XBoxes.

I now see there's no point in talking to you.
 
You guys are wasint gyour time trying to predict how much ms is going to loose money of the course of the Xbox lifetime. There so many factors at play that you couldn't possibly factor in everything. there two areas that I see people completely ignoring in this thread.

1. Cost of parts coming down. They have already come down significantly since xbox was released. MS is going to introduce a new smaller (cheaper to build) xbox at E3.

area number 2 revovles around nintendo

2. If you really think nintendo is making so much mney on the gamecube, then why has their stock been steadily falling?

The majority of revenue nintendo has coming in is from the sale of GBA. That's pure profit compared to the gamecube.
 
I find the assessment that Nintendo "isn't bothered by Xbox" halarious in light of the fact that GCs software and hardware sales are below expectations. But then again, Ninetedo seems to be in deep denial, so who knows.
 
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