Microsoft acquired Activision Blizzard King for $69 Billion on 2023-10-13

:runaway: - MS turned down the Marvel (Spider-Man) exclusive!! Why should governments intervene on MS making dumb choices?! The recent Spider-Man titles should not in any way be used in any exclusivity arguments as the situation around its existence has nothing to do with hard-core exclusivity dealings and buying up rights. And every time it's thrown up as an argument in MS's favour, it's just plain embarassing MS once again that they turned down Marvel!

Yes Sony turned down the Bethesda acquisition and the ABK acquisition. It doesn't matter if sonny was willing to pay for it because MS wasn't willing to pay for the Spider-man rights and you are saying tough luck there. So it would be the same thing.

Sony easily could have afforded Bethesda and not for nothing the rumor was that Sony was trying to purchase them before MS came in and bought them. The other rumor was that Sony was trying to make exclusivity deals for a bunch of IP from them. I also believe before the MS / ABK deal there were comments made that ABK was looking at other companies to purchase them and MS was the one that ultimately was interested and put in a compelling bid.



I have always been on the side if Company A buys developers then Company B should also be able to buy companies. If Company A makes exclusivity deals then Company B should be able to make the same purchase. I've also said that if Company B is in last place in the market and are blocked from buying other companies then Company A that is the market leader should certainly be even further restricted in what purchases they can make. A healthy market is when we have as many competitors as possible with as equal share as possible.

I don't and it seems a lot of the governments out there agree with me on this , but I don't see a way in which MS purchasing ABK drives Sony from the market. Sony outsells MS world wide by over 2:1 if not more. Last generation MS may not have hit 60m consoles while sony is close to 120m consoles I beileve and still selling them. To be honest with the 10 year contracts MS has offered I don't see that changing in any meaningful way from the ABK purchase in the next decade or more. While ABK has popular franchises MS is willing to tie up its largest onto competition platforms for 10 years. Diablo just released its latest game on playstation/xbox and pc. Their other big game WOW has been a pc exclusive for 20 years. The sequel to their other big hit is not doing that great having stirred up controversy with canceling hero mode. Also as I said every almost every regulator except the UK and US has said it was a non issue.
Sure but that's like saying that Sony "turned down" the Bethesda acquisition or Sony "turned down" the ABK acquisition. Likely because Bethesda and ABK were asking more and/or MS were offering more and Sony didn't think either was worth the eventual selling price. Similarly MS likely figured that the Marvel Spider-Man exclusive wasn't worth the asking price for licensing/exclusivity and/or weren't willing to enter into a bidding war with Sony for it.

I mean is it embarrassing that Sony turned down Bethesda?

Yes, there's a difference in scale. This is just meant to illustrate that these are all purely business decisions. Is X worth spending Y?

Ignoring the whole government intervention thing, I'm not sure why MS turning down Spider-Man should be viewed as any more or less embarrassing than Sony turning down Bethesda. Which basically means that in the long term, Sony turned down Starfield.

Regards,
SB


I only brought up spiderman because it was recent and a example of how inane that line of thinking is. Spiderman has had games all the way back to the atari. Should sony need to port Spiderman 2 to the atari vcs that came out recently or if the intellivison amiico ever came out? After all that IP showed up on the previous versions of those consoles.

Its just a decent into moving goal posts so that my fav company seems to be doing the right thing.

Look Sony could have bought Bethesda. As I said above the original rumors were that Sony was purchasing them. They could have bid for ABK as the original word was that ABK were looking for other offers above MS. But sony didn't do it. Just like MS didn't get the rights to Spiderman and now those games wont appear on the xbox. Maybe it sucks for MS fans but a ps5 is $400. It's not the end of the world financially or you can play it on geforce now with a sub. Same on the other side. It sucks that MS bought Bethesda but its even cheaper to buy an xbox series s , its $300 and sometimes as low as $200. Also you can play it on xcloud or geforce now.
 
Sure but that's like saying that Sony "turned down" the Bethesda acquisition or Sony "turned down" the ABK acquisition.
In the same way me turning down someone's offer of one of their gorgeous home-made muffins is the same as if I decide not to go into a shop and buy a pack of muffins for £5??

I mean is it embarrassing that Sony turned down Bethesda?
Only if Bethesda asked Sony to buy them and offered them a great price. Is there a story I've missed where Sony were presented with acquiring Bethesda and declined?
 
Look Sony could have bought Bethesda. As I said above the original rumors were that Sony was purchasing them.
Is that confirmed, or just rumours? The Spider-Man situation is confirmed. If it's confirmed Sony had the option for Bethesda at a great price (the Marvel deal was 'free') and they turned it down, I'll agree with you.
They could have bid for ABK as the original word was that ABK were looking for other offers above MS. But sony didn't do it.
Sony can't afford $70 billion. They have scraped together $6-7 billion for acquisitions in 2020, and I think they've doubled that this year. Choosing not to buy something you can't afford isn't really a choice.
 
Is that confirmed, or just rumours? The Spider-Man situation is confirmed. If it's confirmed Sony had the option for Bethesda at a great price (the Marvel deal was 'free') and they turned it down, I'll agree with you.

Sony can't afford $70 billion. They have scraped together $6-7 billion for acquisitions in 2020, and I think they've doubled that this year. Choosing not to buy something you can't afford isn't really a choice.
Does it matter? Bethesda was up for sale and anyone could have bought them if they bid high enough.

The second part sounds like a sony problem. Sony is valued at like a 120B so they should have been able to create some sort of merger to purchase ABK. Disney didn't pay for fox in all cash either they paid half in cash and half in stock with 341 million new shares.

Sony could also do the same if they wanted to buy ABK. But we already see from MS's filling with the courts that Jim Ryan didn't think Ms purchasing ABK was an issue. So why would sony purchase it. I am sure they felt the same way with Bethesda and you know what. After buying Bethesda, MS isn't suddenly in first place just like by buying ABK MS wont suddenly be in first.
 
Does it matter?
Yes! You're comparing a free offer with a bought one and trying to make out they are comparable. A person deciding not to buy expensive ice-cream is as daft as a person turning down free ice-cream.

Not only that, you're saying the guy who accepted free ice-cream stopped the other guy who turned down free ice-cream from having free ice-cream! :runaway:
 
Yes! You're comparing a free offer with a bought one and trying to make out they are comparable. A person deciding not to buy expensive ice-cream is as daft as a person turning down free ice-cream.

Not only that, you're saying the guy who accepted free ice-cream stopped the other guy who turned down free ice-cream from having free ice-cream! :runaway:
So you are saying that Disney was offering the Spider-man ip for video games to Microsoft for free? Do you have any sources for that ?
 
Sure but that's like saying that Sony "turned down" the Bethesda acquisition or Sony "turned down" the ABK acquisition. Likely because Bethesda and ABK were asking more and/or MS were offering more and Sony didn't think either was worth the eventual selling price. Similarly MS likely figured that the Marvel Spider-Man exclusive wasn't worth the asking price for licensing/exclusivity and/or weren't willing to enter into a bidding war with Sony for it.

I mean is it embarrassing that Sony turned down Bethesda?

Yes, there's a difference in scale. This is just meant to illustrate that these are all purely business decisions. Is X worth spending Y?

Ignoring the whole government intervention thing, I'm not sure why MS turning down Spider-Man should be viewed as any more or less embarrassing than Sony turning down Bethesda. Which basically means that in the long term, Sony turned down Starfield.

Regards,
SB
Sony doesnt have 69billion in cash sitting inert in some bank to make such purchases. If Sony did have that money though IMO they shouldnt have been allowed to make such purchase. Besides Spider Man's IP does not belong to Sony and does appear in competitive platforms in other forms. Only the particular Spiderman games are on Playstation and it is a temporary contract, which means in the future standalone Spiderman games will be developed by other studios and will appear on competitive platforms. On the other hand Microsoft owns every IP that is under Zenimax, will own every IP that is under ABK, and all their future titles (including new IPs) can become exclusive if it serves Microsoft's strategy.
 
So you are saying that Disney was offering the Spider-man ip for video games to Microsoft for free? Do you have any sources for that ?
The story doesn't in any way imply the IP was licensed.

According to Ong, Marvel Games wasn’t happy with the quality of the Spider-Man games being published by Activision, and the two companies mutually agreed to terminate their licensing deal early.
Ong said that when the deal was made to walk away, Activision asked “what are you going to do with this IP after you get it back?” To which Ong replied: “I’m going to find a better home for it.”

“We don’t have any big console deals with anyone right now, what would you like to do?”.

“I said, ‘We have a dream that this is possible, that we could beat Arkham and have one game at least and maybe multiple games that could drive adoption of your platform’.”

Sony reportedly responded by offering to make a triple-A, PlayStation-exclusive Spider-Man game...

It was a mutually beneficial deal for both parties - Marvel gets money from the title and improving their game branding which was associated with mediocre titles, and the platform that accepted got Marvel exclusive content to drive platform sales. MS turned Marvel down, wanting to focus on making their own IP. If both parties were interested, perhaps there would have been a bidding war, but as things stand it was a zero sum offering. One would have to insert missing words into the story to support the view that not only were Marvel looking for a partner to improve the value of the game brands, but also wanted someone to pay up front for the privilege.

But even if Marvel were asking for cash, it's still a case of an ice-cream vendor offering two people very affordable-for-them £2 ice-creams, and one saying they preferred to make their own, and the other buying it, and then claiming that the guy who bought ice-cream is responsible for the-guy-who-turned-it-down-to-make-his-own turning it down. They weren't outbid. The decisions of the second party had no bearing on the first party declining the opportunity. That's not the same as two people bidding for the same item and one being outbid. That's not the same as one guy buying an item before the other had chance. They are all different transaction types with zero correlation.
 
People keep looking back on the Spider-man deal as if Microsoft really bungled it. But did they? The modern Spider-man games are mostly great because of the developer who made them. A developer who most likely wouldn't have made the game if Microsoft had the license. Lets not pretend that a licensed super hero game is a surefire success in sales, or more important to this conversation I think, quality. Think for a few minutes how a Spider-man game would have looked using the internal studios at Xbox at the time, but subtract the teams working on big projects already. I'm not sure it would have come out as universally acclaimed if Microsoft had the game.
 
The story doesn't in any way imply the IP was licensed.



It was a mutually beneficial deal for both parties - Marvel gets money from the title and improving their game branding which was associated with mediocre titles, and the platform that accepted got Marvel exclusive content to drive platform sales. MS turned Marvel down, wanting to focus on making their own IP. If both parties were interested, perhaps there would have been a bidding war, but as things stand it was a zero sum offering. One would have to insert missing words into the story to support the view that not only were Marvel looking for a partner to improve the value of the game brands, but also wanted someone to pay up front for the privilege.

But even if Marvel were asking for cash, it's still a case of an ice-cream vendor offering two people very affordable-for-them £2 ice-creams, and one saying they preferred to make their own, and the other buying it, and then claiming that the guy who bought ice-cream is responsible for the-guy-who-turned-it-down-to-make-his-own turning it down. They weren't outbid. The decisions of the second party had no bearing on the first party declining the opportunity. That's not the same as two people bidding for the same item and one being outbid. That's not the same as one guy buying an item before the other had chance. They are all different transaction types with zero correlation.

So I am to understand that you believe that Disney gave the IP to sony for no money just so it had a good home ? Do you think that is how giant businesses work ?

Thank you for a great laugh to a great fathers day lol
 
So I am to understand that you believe that Disney gave the IP to sony for no money just so it had a good home ? Do you think that is how giant businesses work ?
Er, good home, means stronger franchise, more money. Marvel are the ones that had a need, so Marvel's offer was highly attractive to incentivize a publisher to take the project
What is actually a joke is to assume that MS dropped it because Marvel's deal was expensive for them, but Sony had all the money of the world to take it.
 
What is actually a joke is to assume that MS dropped it because Marvel's deal was expensive for them, but Sony had all the money of the world to take it.
This has always baffled me. Phil Spencer, and other's of Microsoft, insinuate that marketing deals aren't viable for Xbox which sounds like a money thing. Sony most cannot afford to acquire Zenimax, or Activision-Blizzard. I struggle to reconcile these two situations.

Microsoft have had exclusive marketing deals for Call of Duty previously, and they had launch exclusivity for the two GTA IV DLC packs; one was fourteen months and the other six, so it released first on Xbox and later on PC and PS3.
 
So I am to understand that you believe that Disney gave the IP to sony for no money just so it had a good home ? Do you think that is how giant businesses work ?
And a chunk of the profits. :rolleyes:

Edit: And that's not even part of the argument. Sure, I'm wrong, money passed hands, whatever. Your example still doesn't connect with your regulation arguments. Sony didn't "buy Insomniac and make SM exclusive." 1) Sony didn't buy Insomniac until after SM was produced and 2) Disney wanted the exclusivity deal. The party to be regulated would have been Disney in this case.

People keep looking back on the Spider-man deal as if Microsoft really bungled it. But did they?
It's not about whether it's a bungle or not - MS turned it down; ergo it's not a good example for the need for/against regulation as eastmen used it.

The market was free, both players considered equal market players capable of developing the IP. It was not Sony who 'bought Insomniac and made Spider-Man exclusive". Hell Spider-Man was released before Sony bought Insomniac, so eastmens' claim Sony should have been blocked from buying them is even more gobbledegook. Furthermore, SM games were on PS* well before they were on XB, making it even, even more gobbledegook. (* And on other platforms long before PS existed)

It's just an illogical argument. The merits of regulation can be debated, sure, but the whole Spider-Man argument - "By this token, Sony should have been blocked from buying Insomniac after they made SM and blocked from making SM exclusive" - as presented is broken. Heck, it would have been Disney in this instance who would have needed regulation to stop them making their IP exclusive, not Sony!
 
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Yeah it's Marvel that wanted it exclusive. It wasnt Marvel that went to Insomniac. They gave it to Sony. Then Sony gave the project to insomniac who was a third party. But I dont see any point of this discussion because it isn't coming from a space of genuine interest in having an objective one.
 
So I am to understand that you believe that Disney gave the IP to sony for no money just so it had a good home ? Do you think that is how giant businesses work ?

Thank you for a great laugh to a great fathers day lol
The conspiratorial hypothesis was that Marvel used the video game license to leverage Sony into the sharing agreement they have for the MCU. Spider-Man was in 2016's Captain America Civil War, Marvel Spider-Man for PS4 came out in 2018. Given game development time, and the limited screen time the character has in the movie, I can see how this timeline fits. However I've seen no evidence that this took place.
 
The conspiratorial hypothesis was that Marvel used the video game license to leverage Sony into the sharing agreement they have for the MCU. Spider-Man was in 2016's Captain America Civil War, Marvel Spider-Man for PS4 came out in 2018. Given game development time, and the limited screen time the character has in the movie, I can see how this timeline fits. However I've seen no evidence that this took place.
It would also make Sony the most masterful negotiators known to mankind, which seems unlikely. Noting that the Amazing Spider-Man movies weren't as commercially successful as the Toby Maguire movies, to get the opportunity to relaunch the character from the mega-juggernaut that was the Avengers films, with Disney picking up the cheque, should have been a no brainer. And they got a videogame licence too.

Civil War, and subequent Avengers moved, did not need Spider-Man. Having him was cool, but the films would have been great without Spider-Man.
 
And a chunk of the profits. :rolleyes:

Edit: And that's not even part of the argument. Sure, I'm wrong, money passed hands, whatever. Your example still doesn't connect with your regulation arguments. Sony didn't "buy Insomniac and make SM exclusive." 1) Sony didn't buy Insomniac until after SM was produced and 2) Disney wanted the exclusivity deal. The party to be regulated would have been Disney in this case.
Yes and Activision/ Blizzard and Zenimax also wanted to be bought and so MS made an offer that the companies except.

See how that works? It's not like MS said oh I want this and just took it.


It's not about whether it's a bungle or not - MS turned it down; ergo it's not a good example for the need for/against regulation as eastmen used it.

MS turned it down for likely the same reasons Sony didn't purchase bethesda or Activision. Because the terms weren't favorable to them
The market was free, both players considered equal market players capable of developing the IP. It was not Sony who 'bought Insomniac and made Spider-Man exclusive". Hell Spider-Man was released before Sony bought Insomniac, so eastmens' claim Sony should have been blocked from buying them is even more gobbledegook. Furthermore, SM games were on PS* well before they were on XB, making it even, even more gobbledegook. (* And on other platforms long before PS existed)

It's just an illogical argument. The merits of regulation can be debated, sure, but the whole Spider-Man argument - "By this token, Sony should have been blocked from buying Insomniac after they made SM and blocked from making SM exclusive" - as presented is broken. Heck, it would have been Disney in this instance who would have needed regulation to stop them making their IP exclusive, not Sony!

Like I said Sony has the IP liscense to make Spiderman for consoles and it has been on previous consoles from other companies. If we play this game what system did Elder Scrolls first debut on as an exclusive? It wasn't Sony's console thats for sure. So then wouldn't MS have more claim to making bethesda games exclusive ? You can even say the same with ID since Doom first appeared for MS dos .

That is why I said moving goal posts is such a dumb thing to do. If we want to care about stuff like that we can go all the way back again to Tomb Raider and Resident evil and sony paying for exclusivity with the sequels
 
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