Metro Last Light ! Yay for the power of PC !

[homerdog]

But the consoles are certainly to blame for constrained level design due to their severe lack of RAM. Even cheapo PCs have many times the amount of memory that is in a console. Look at Crysis for an example of what games should be like. Crysis 2 took a huge leap backwards in level design for this reason.

 

[swaaye]

Well, of the top of my head, how about considering Human Revolution, Borderlands, Just Cause 2, Oblivion and Fallout 3 while you're blaming console hardware for tiny game worlds.

I wouldn't hesitate to blame them for low detail assets though. But when it comes to game world size it's more about how well the developer knows how to stream data in (which is needed on PC too).

 

[homerdog]

To be fair, none of those games compare to Crysis in terms of interactivity and detail. Just Cause 2 ain't bad but it isn't on the same level.

 

[swaaye]

How about Red Faction Guerrilla? The visuals aren't on Crysis's level but it's still a great looking, very interactive open world game. It actually has more destructible objects/buildings than Crysis.

Crysis is undeniably an example of PC hardware taken to the limit. Maybe it's the last example. Crytek was the last bastion of AAA PC-only development and they decided that was a mistake. It sucks but I can't blame them. I'm not convinced that Crysis 2 being a corridor shooter is the fault of the hardware though.

 

[tabs]

I'm not convinced that Crysis 2 being a corridor shooter is the fault of the hardware though.

I have no idea why else it would be. Care to elaborate?

 

[swaaye]

I think the only explanation is that Crytek wanted to make it a narrower, tighter shooter. There's the change in setting. In a city, when telling their story, maybe they wanted to keep things narrower than going GTA-like. Also, consider that Crysis/Warhead/Far Cry are in reality very linear in their progression but since you're in a jungle they widen the "corridor" a lot. But it's not entirely sandbox because areas are inaccessible.

You could also look at the possibility that when moving to consoles they had some new motivations. After bitching about Crysis/Warhead not having great sales, maybe they wanted to be sure the CoD/Halo folks felt right at home. Who knows...

The fact of the matter is that it is not at all unprecedented to have a sandbox shooter on a console. Crytek just didn't go that route this time.

 

[homerdog]

I call BS. If they could release Crysis on consoles I'm sure they would do it. Not technically possible at reasonable quality levels. Not enough RAM.

 

[Vadi]

A post here was about needing a lot of RAM for a destructible world.
A few people are still playing Soldner for it's great gameplay. When it came out in 2004, it needed 1GB RAM to work well.
I think there hasn't been a comparable game made since then.

Unfortunately they don't make RAM expansions for consoles. So for a new game you would have to buy RAM, and it would work for other new games too. At least until now its prices dropped fast. Then again it's a waste issue too.

 

[Davros]

Did you read my post in the free games thread about Soldner Marine Corps now being free
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=49979&page=5

 

[KKRT]

I have no idea why else it would be. Care to elaborate?

They said that they've made 3 games in jungle and they wanted something else. They needed new engine for christ sake and lighting to make it working.
If Sniper Ghost Warrior 2 will look like it does on the screens than You just cant argue that Crysis cant be made on consoles because of ram limitation.

 

[tabs]

Does Sniper Ghost Warrior have the same level of interactivity as Crysis (the first one)? I genuinely don't know I've never played it. It's fair to say that you can have big, pretty and moderately interactive at good performance (see Just Cause 2) or big, pretty, quite good interactivity at poor performance (see GTA IV).

Crysis 2 had much less interactivity than Crysis 1 and was smaller by quite a long stretch. Do you think they just said "Ah, screw it we can easily get more out of this hardware, but we don't need to bother."?

Well they did for one platform, and it wasn't a console.

 

[nightshade]

Well Farcry 2?

 

[tabs]

Have you played Farcry 2 and Crysis on a reasonably up to date PC? The difference is huge!

 

[nightshade]

To answer your question, yes I have.

But that's not the argument here, The argument is for good looking, high tech games with big areas and good interactivity on consoles.

Yes Farcry 2 definitely lacks behind Crysis in terms of tech but its not something which I'd say huge (the art also plays a big role here in terms of how it looks as the ideas for a jungle are polar opposite in both games). Beside you also have to consider that there are some areas where Farcry 2 deserves credits for eg the world is bigger by a considerable magnitude and then you have some small fators like a wind and weather system, a system for foilage/tree regeneration over time, fire propogation etc. I am not saying its superior to Crysis in terms of rendering tech cause that would be wrong, however saying that there is a whole world of difference wouldn't be correct either. And ofcourse I am only considering the vanilla version of Crysis as putting a modded version up against an unmodable game like Farcry 2 would be unfair.

 

[tabs]

I am addressing this

I'm not convinced that Crysis 2 being a corridor shooter is the fault of the hardware though.

so I don't know why you think you can change what I'm talking about, but nice try.

The argument is not for a big open world on consoles. That's obviously possible. The argument is to whether Crysis can run on consoles. In the form it was presented on PC, no it cannot. It's obvious when you look at Crysis 2.

It's not just smaller levels. Everything is scaled back. There's hardly any physics, destructible buildings, not so many enemies at once. Textures are lower detail. You name it, there's not as much of it.

Why would Crytek do this unless they had to?

If they just wanted to make tighter levels then they could have just done that. However they also seemed to want to make less destruction, lower res textures, less geometry, less less less... can you see a pattern here? How do you think you're going to fit Crysis into less than 500mb of RAM and run it on a midrange 7series card or X1, even when programming CTM? It's nuts. If they could do that, they would've done it for the PC too... but oddly enough it's a bit of a resource hog...

Of course Crytek can make Crysis 1 on consoles, but why would they? It would be a very poor comparison and that comparison is all anybody would ever talk about. That would be their publicity - "Look how crap this is compared to the one they made 4 years ago on PC." It would be all over youtube. Not a great marketing strategy is it?

That brings us back to Metro / Stalker on consoles issue. Stalker fans are genuinely concerned that Stalker is going to go the way of Crysis 2. The devs have already shown us that they went corridor as soon as they went multi-plat... so lets see what happens. They like pushing the tech, just like Crytek. I can't see them scaling it back (a la Far Cry 2) to accomodate a larger world.

 

[pjbliverpool]

The problem is graphics. you can't afford to make any sequel look significantly worse than its predecessor and so the only option crytek had to not make it look like complete ass next to crisis 1 was to scale back the environments and pass that resource gain to the graphics. changing the environment also avoids direct comparisons and goes hand in hand with the narrower game world. of course open worlds of any size are possible on consoles but they come at a cost to rendering quality or performance that they couldn't afford in the face of crisis 1's flagship graphic.

 

[KKRT]

Have you played Farcry 2 and Crysis on a reasonably up to date PC? The difference is huge!

So what? Its not like You have to do very high setting of Crysis 1 on consoles and Crysis 2 on consoles has many graphic features that Crysis 1 on very high lacks, its all about balance and tech.

 

[pjbliverpool]

So what? Its not like You have to do very high setting of Crysis 1 on consoles

If you're gonna call it Crysis 2 and set it in a comparable environment (e.g. a jungle) then you had better hope it looks very close to Crysis 1 which is by that point about 4 years old. Otherwise, your brand new shiny game is going to have the piss ripped out of it all over the net.

and Crysis 2 on consoles has many graphic features that Crysis 1 on very high lacks

Yes and that is exactly the point. The smaller, less interactive environments allowed then the scope to bring the graphics up to a more even par. Had Crysis 2 been as open and interactive as Crysis 1, it wouldn't have looked as good. And besides, a check list of graphical features does not make a good looking game. Crysis 2 looks excellent and is easily one of the best looking console games but extra check list features or not, it still comes a solid second place to the original. But no-where near as badly as it would have if they'd went for another highly open and interactive jungle type environment.

 

[tabs]

Thanks for putting that succinctly. Sometimes it's hard to explain what we see as obvious, I was struggling!

 

[KKRT]

Yes and that is exactly the point. The smaller, less interactive environments allowed then the scope to bring the graphics up to a more even par. Had Crysis 2 been as open and interactive as Crysis 1, it wouldn't have looked as good.

Do You mean better tech? Like better and faster lighting, faster shadows, faster ssao, god rays, better assets streaming engine?
And about interactivity they could just limit the number objects that dont disappear or a time after they disappear. Its really only matter of trade offs. No one is gonna expect it to looks exactly the same as on 4-5 faster hardware with more ram.

I dont know why people are still complaining about it. Its their decision and i'm actually glad, because i was bored in Crysis 1 and like most parts of Crysis 2 much better from gameplay standpoint. I think people just wanted Crysis 1 ported to CE 3, instead of real sequel.