Lack of HDD forces Saint's Row to scale back game...

[scooby_dooby]

I hate to say I told you so...and I know the HDD arguments is deader than dirt...but...

http://www.aussiexbox.com.au/template_sec_games.cfm? page_id=55540449110031018&se_id=139&site_id=11003

"Last but not least, after we were told that there was no ability to fly aircrafts in the game due to the DVD drive’s inability to stream the environment fast enough in full 720p resolution. We asked Jacques Hennequet (Producer for Saint’s Row), “If the Xbox 360 Hard Drive was standard across both SKU’s, would flying aircrafts in the game have been a reality?â€￾, Jacques simply answered “Yesâ€￾. While he completely understands why MS made the decision to not include a hard drive in the Core System, I think he felt somewhat disappointed, as it could have opened up much more possibilities within the gameplay for Volition’s first Xbox 360 title."

See...HDD's can and do add features to games that would otherwise not be possible, they are not just about "faster load times"

 

[Bobbler]

Except the entire thing is being taken out because the HDD offers faster load times...

And that's kind of a shame -- it would have been neat I'm sure. This game looks pretty entertaining (if nothing else a decent GTA clone).

 

[seismologist]

According to the other thread, streaming isn't only limited due to lack of a HDD but by the DVD format itself. I guess a standard HDD on the 360 would have resolved this limitation.

 

[Dr. Meaty]

Just remember, it's all about freed- ..er,.. uh,..choice for the consumer!

 

[mckmas8808]

According to the other thread, streaming isn't only limited due to lack of a HDD but by the DVD format itself. I guess a standard HDD on the 360 would have resolved this limitation.

According to the other thread a Blu-ray drive or HD-DVD drive could have fixed this problem.

 

[X-AleX]

Scale back seems really odd, they simply took off a feature.
Also, they could optimize the game for HD just like Oblivion and Enchant Arm are doing, so it's really up to the developers

 

[jpr27]

Well if it was a Japanese only title they could do it .... Grrrrr lol

 

[Uncle]

According to the other thread a Blu-ray drive or HD-DVD drive could have fixed this problem.

Which thread? Can't seem to find it.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

According to the other thread a Blu-ray drive or HD-DVD drive could have fixed this problem.

Why? The problem is the transfer speed isn't faster enough and HD-DVD or BluRay are unlikely to be as fast as a 12x DVD drive unless they're in multispeeds themselves. I doubt MS would be able to get their hands on several million 4x HD-DVD/BluRay readers in time for a November launch at a price that doesn't bankrupt them, and I doubt PS3 or Revolution will be any better off in the streaming data rate either.

 

[Uncle]

Could they make flying possible when the HDD is connected and have the game say "due to the price of gasoline right now, you can't afford to fly" or something when it isn't?

 

[Acert93]

• 1.5x BR drive would be 54mbps, or 6.75MB/s (you wont see a 1x BR drive because the 1x spec of 36mbps does not meet the performance requirement for BD-ROM movies which is 54mbps)
• 2x BR drive would be 72mbps, or 9MB/s
• 4x BR drive would be 144mbps, or 18MB/s
• 12x DVD is 133mbps, or 16.65MB/s

Another factor is how the data is read. I don't know how the PS3 drive will work (or even what speed) but CAV and CLV can make a difference in the speed of the inner and outer tracks (also a question of how BR speed is measure in regards to what method). I am sure someone can provide a definitive link on BR methodology, as for the PS3 drive we will have to wait. It is being estimated HD optical drive in the PS3 will cost Sony more than $100 to impliment.

 

[mckmas8808]

Why? The problem is the transfer speed isn't faster enough and HD-DVD or BluRay are unlikely to be as fast as a 12x DVD drive unless they're in multispeeds themselves. I doubt MS would be able to get their hands on several million 4x HD-DVD/BluRay readers in time for a November launch at a price that doesn't bankrupt them, and I doubt PS3 or Revolution will be any better off in the streaming data rate either.

Well of course MS couldn't get their hands on a next-gen drive. I understand that and it makes sense for them not to, because their plan is to launch first a in this holiday season. I was refering to what Titanio said when he was talking about extra space for redundant data.

 

[Acert93]

Why? The problem is the transfer speed isn't faster enough and HD-DVD or BluRay are unlikely to be as fast as a 12x DVD drive unless they're in multispeeds themselves. I doubt MS would be able to get their hands on several million 4x HD-DVD/BluRay readers in time for a November launch at a price that doesn't bankrupt them, and I doubt PS3 or Revolution will be any better off in the streaming data rate either.

Beat me Don't you hate it when you start a post, get distracted looking up info, come back finish your post and BAM! Someone beat you?

Anyhow, I do NOT think this is a *technical* issue but a software design issue. It needs to be considered in the initial design process and the game engine and art assets--and level/world layout--need to take this into consideration.

Wise use of textures, reliance on procedurally created content, limiting detail density to allow for sectional streaming, smart streaming grid layout for streaming, aggressive LOD and other tricks to keep a far horizon but not wasting valuable assets on distant items where the detail is unobservable, etc.

While a HDD is faster, the minimum transfer rate is slower than the 12x drive and the maximimum is not even double the 12x drives maximum. HDD do have lower latency though.

After seeing PS2/GCN games with excellent streaming and hearing Epic talk about UE3's streaming tech with the goal of no loading screens I think that it is possible. Hard? Maybe. Too difficult for some first gen games that did not have solid specs to shoot for? Sure. But in the long run there are solutions.

Kind of stinks about Saint's Row. I wonder if this was implimented 6mo ago and they then found out that there would be no HDD (which devs have known for a long time) or were developing it and realized their engine was too demanding to pull this off without a higher streaming media source?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Redundant data affects seek times, but not peak transfer rates. Depending on the limiting factor for Saint's Row I doubt extra data will provide enough for streamed environments.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Could they make flying possible when the HDD is connected and have the game say "due to the price of gasoline right now, you can't afford to fly" or something when it isn't?

Nice idea! Adaptive game worlds to limit or enable HDD support is very cool

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Anyhow, I do NOT think this is a *technical* issue but a software design issue. It needs to be considered in the initial design process and the game engine and art assets--and level/world layout--need to take this into consideration.

Yes, I wonder what the difficulty is. I'm guessing being a city game they've got all their textures etc. at a suitable size for streaming at car driving speeds, but when you get in a plane at >2x the speed at which textures need to be loaded becomes too much. No different to PGR3 or GT5 letting you fly through their environments in a Eurofighter. The scenery's not designed for that 'speed'.

 

[Acert93]

Nice idea! Adaptive game worlds to limit or enable HDD support is very cool

ROTFLOL

"For best fuel economy, please go to your local Wal*Mart(TM) and purchase a detachable HDD unit. This will provide your aircraft with the fuel saving options to allow you to take flight--all for the low cost of $99.94. Without this device you cannot afford the fuel consumption of this airframe."

Now objectively looking at it, considering Moore said the primary SKU in the US will be the HDD model, and Japan is only getting the HDD model... I guess I would aim high personally and require the HDD, or at least make use of it. Nothing wrong with offering an extra feature for the HDD... unless you are out of time and don't have the staff/desire to.

Since so many players will have HDD's, they could have just "closed the airport" for those without a HDD... [in game screen pops up]

"The local municipal airport is closed due to recent terrorist activities. You will need a secret unlock device, HDD, to bypass this gate. This device can be purchased at your local Target".

If they had the feature working with the HDD, I wonder why they took it out. If they want the HDD to be common they should support it, even if minimally. If they spent the time to develop flying they might as well include it--even if only 50% of users can enjoy it. Games that require a memory card--which is a LOT--go this approach.

I don't see Madden cutting out franchise because not all players have mem cards. Something does not smell right...

 

[mckmas8808]

Redundant data affects seek times, but not peak transfer rates. Depending on the limiting factor for Saint's Row I doubt extra data will provide enough for streamed environments.

I'm really trying to understand this. So what does redundant data do? I thought seek times were the samething as peak transfer rates. Care to explain in a little more detail?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Peak transfer is what you get when your data is nicely laid out in a straight track. Like a movie which starts at the beginning and goes to the end. the read head just follows the track without any breaks, and that's the data rate these drives are listed for. Seek time is how long it takes to go from one bit of data on one part of the disk to another bit of data on another part of the disk, normally listed as an average as obviously to go from the outside to the inside of the disc is going to take longer as from outside to a little but inside.

So if you're loading a couple of big files, seek plays no part. If accessing loads of tiny files, your transfer rate is going to be well below peak. Redundant data on a disc can reduce seek times but you'll never match a HDD's seek times.

 

[Ruined]

I would have preferred a hard drive for games but IMO this sounds like a time issue more than anything.

Volition probably designed Saint's Row with a hard drive in mind, since that is where things seemed to be at during E3. Now that they have been told no HD, they probably don't have time to recode the plane portions for use without a HD. Think about all of the games that were made due with only 16mb of RAM on the Dreamcast and no hard drive (virtually the entire game needs to be streaming) and its pretty clear that an HD isn't needed for most games (not counting MMOs) - especially when the XBOX360 has 512mb RAM. With that much RAM, the XBOX360 has nearly as much potential shared "scratch space" as the XBOX1 did including the XBOX1's hard drive (a bit over 700mb/game IIRC). I also fail to see how rendering in 720p makes any difference at all in this case.

And to add to another poster's response, a HD-ROM drive would have made this problem worse, not better, as first gen HD drives will likely be slower than a 12x DVDROM.