Kyle lays it on the line

Fred da Roza said:
digitalwanderer said:
What response from Epic, I'm getting all confused again. :?:

EDITED BITS: I keep getting more confused reading your post Dave, who did nVidia seek approval of the UT2k3 'optimizations' from? :confused:

I believe he is referring to the last cryptic message he gave.

Dave Baumann said:
One final note.

On the subject of Epic's involvement with this take note of the following from Rev's post in which he first mentions this: "a few days ago I'd asked Tim Sweeney if Epic approves/agrees to what NVIDIA's drivers are doing in UT2003."

The bold is not immediately obvious, but pertinent.
Thank you Fred, but me brain ain't firing well enough yet to get all these subltle clues...I'm still on me first pot-o-coffee and am trying to make breakfast for the kids/wife & get 'em all ready and going.

Mebbe after all that when I'm up to functional caffeine levels I'll figure it out, but thanks for giving me another piece to be confused over for now. ;) (I really should stop posting before I wake up... :rolleyes: )
 
DaveBaumann said:
Of course neither he nor Kyle knew that we solicited the responce from Epic after NVIDIA had told them that they had sought approaval for the UT2003 'optimisations'.

Dang it, does this mean what I think it does or is me brain still under-coffeed? Am I reading that nVidia told Epic that they had sought approval for the UT2k3 optimizations? As in they told Epic that they had sought approval from Epic previously, as in nVidia was trying to tell Epic to re-write the history of what happenend?!?

It simply can NOT be that, I must be fuzzy-headed still...but it's what I keep reading into it! :oops:

I don't need this confirmed since I know it's 'sposed to be just a teaser/hint, but could you please tell me if I'm way off base on this one?
 
I read it as Nvidia told [H] that Nvidia had sought approval from Epic to drop the IQ on Ut2K.

REading between the lines, this would have legitimised the lowering of IQ to Kyle, but Nvidia may have left out whether Nvidia actually *had* permission to do it or not. It may also be the case that Nvidia "seeking permission" is news to Epic, and it never happened ie, it was just Nvidia spinning a story to Kyle to keep him in line. "Don't worry Kyle, Epic said it was okay for us to drop IQ into the toilet - they think it's a valid "optimisation", so you and your readers should too." (pats Kyle on head).
 
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
I read it as Nvidia told [H] that Nvidia had sought approval from Epic to drop the IQ on Ut2K.

REading between the lines, this would have legitimised the lowering of IQ to Kyle, but Nvidia may have left out whether Nvidia actually *had* permission to do it or not. It may also be the case that Nvidia "seeking permission" is news to Epic, and it never happened ie, it was just Nvidia spinning a story to Kyle to keep him in line. "Don't worry Kyle, Epic said it was okay for us to drop IQ into the toilet - they think it's a valid "optimisation", so you and your readers should to." (pats Kyle on head).
Hmmm, I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks, that would make a lot more sense. (But it ain't as fun for us conspiracy fans... ;) )
 
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
I read it as Nvidia told [H] that Nvidia had sought approval from Epic to drop the IQ on Ut2K.

REading between the lines, this would have legitimised the lowering of IQ to Kyle, but Nvidia may have left out whether Nvidia actually *had* permission to do it or not. It may also be the case that Nvidia "seeking permission" is news to Epic, and it never happened ie, it was just Nvidia spinning a story to Kyle to keep him in line. "Don't worry Kyle, Epic said it was okay for us to drop IQ into the toilet - they think it's a valid "optimisation", so you and your readers should to." (pats Kyle on head).

I agree. I believe one can conclude the "he" Dave Baumann refers to is an nVidia rep. And what Kyle reiterated is what that same rep stated to B3D. This however contradicts what Tim Sweeney had stated.
 
Fred da Roza said:
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
I read it as Nvidia told [H] that Nvidia had sought approval from Epic to drop the IQ on Ut2K.

REading between the lines, this would have legitimised the lowering of IQ to Kyle, but Nvidia may have left out whether Nvidia actually *had* permission to do it or not. It may also be the case that Nvidia "seeking permission" is news to Epic, and it never happened ie, it was just Nvidia spinning a story to Kyle to keep him in line. "Don't worry Kyle, Epic said it was okay for us to drop IQ into the toilet - they think it's a valid "optimisation", so you and your readers should to." (pats Kyle on head).

I agree. I believe one can conclude the "he" Dave Baumann refers to is an nVidia rep. And what Kyle reiterated is what that same rep stated to B3D. This however contradicts what Tim Sweeney had stated.
Wouldn't that be one hell of a smoking gun? :oops:
 
Well, look at what Sweeny told the Rev as recounted here:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7006

Tim Sweeny said:
Anthony,

We're not in the business of publically critiquing the nuances of drivers or approving/disapproving them. We only get involved in the driver situation publically when there is a major driver bug that has a significant negative impact on people who play our games, and that hasn't happened in years. Things like mipmap bias factors and trilinear optimizations/shortcuts don't fall in this category; they are subjective and it's best for users and web critics to debate what performance/quality tradeoffs are acceptable.

We often have informal conversations with NVidia and ATI about performance/quality tradeoffs and shortcuts, but these are private discussions and not public endorsements or rejection of the tradeoffs they make.

Long term I would like to see the rendering API defined in terms of exactly reproducable results, so that there isn't room for debate on things like texture filtering optimizations or mipmap biasing. Then, a given set of triangles and render state passed down to 3D hardware is guaranteed to give the exact same results on all hardware and any software emulation or fallbacks. There are general and non-controversial definitions of how all such things should work, from IEEE 752 for floating point to Fundamentals of Computer Graphics for the definition of trilinear filtering and mipmap factor calculation.

-Tim

In the first paragraph here Sweeny makes it clear that Epic never discusses IQ issues with IHVs apart from major, detrimental driver bugs. That's pretty clear.

In the second paragraph he relates other "informal" discussions with IHVs which are "private" but do not equate to endorsements or rejections of IQ "tradeoffs" discussed.

I find these paragraphs completely congruent. I would characterize them thusly relating to this situation with this hypothetical example:

nVidia: Tim, we are interested in in incorporating a performance trilinear mode in our drivers relative to UT2K3 which will be dependent on application recognition, as it isn't something we wish to do with other games. We want to tailor it to UT2K3. Any suggestions from your point of view on how we might do this? We're doing it to get better performance than we can get currently using standard full trilinear, so we thought we'd see if you have any suggestions..."

Sweeny: OK, I've got a couple of approaches I can think of you might wish to try. First....blah, blah, blah...

Basically, I think he's saying here that he doesn't care what an IHV does in this regard, as Epic considers this an issue between the IHV and the end user, not between Epic and the end user.

I would say that I agree with this position generally, except for one thing. As nVidia has a financial relationship with Epic/Atari which involves payment to Epic/Atari for nVidia logo display in the game itself, the appearance of a conflict of interest is at least suggested (notice I am not saying one exists.) However, this is something Epic should be very careful about. Frankly, as I've said since last year when UT2K3 shipped, although Epic intelligently made it easy to replace the nVidia logo in the game with one from the user's choice of IHV, I think such a policy is in very bad taste and the product of poor judgement on someone's part.

At best the TWIMTBP logo at the start of the game implies some sort of "special attention" Epic is including in its code for nVidia products, something which Tim flatly denies in the quote above and has denied in other quotes on other occasions. At worst, it makes it appear as if there is a conflict of interest in the development of the software (even if of course there is not.)

I think Epic/Atari in the future would be well-advised to sell whatever space it wants on its program CD to whatever IHV is willing to purchase it, and exclude all such promotional material from the content of the game itself. I would certainly hope Epic will do this.
 
"That makes Mr.Panda sad."
:(

I don't think I like ANY interpretations of what Epic is saying as none of it is very good for the end-user. :(
 
digitalwanderer said:
"That makes Mr.Panda sad."
:(

I don't think I like ANY interpretations of what Epic is saying as none of it is very good for the end-user. :(

Epic has said in the past (and seem to be saying today) that what they want is for all 3D hardware to render what the application asks for, and thus faithfully reproduce the intended content. This came up when Tim was asked what he thought of "optimisations" like drivers replacing shaders with faster, low quality versions.

However, Epic also seem to be saying that they don't want to get involved (at least publicly) in the can of worms that is opened when IHV's start hacking about with their content unless it gets really, really bad.
 
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
Epic also seem to be saying that they don't want to get involved (at least publicly) in the can of worms that is opened when IHV's start hacking about with their content unless it gets really, really bad.
Well, I think this qualifies as "really bad"...but I'm not sure what the exact threshold for it crossing over into the "really, really bad" catagory is.

I think it's really, really, REALLY bad already. :(
 
FiringSquad says they were told NVIDIA had Epic's approval for the "optimization".

Quote from FiringSquad's article:

"<snip>......in NVIDIA’s defense, we’ve been told that they did have Epic’s approval for this optimization"

Link (towards the bottom is the quote)

Brent
 
brent_anderson said:
FiringSquad says they were told NVIDIA had Epic's approval for the "optimization".

Quote from FiringSquad's article:

"<snip>......in NVIDIA’s defense, we’ve been told that they did have Epic’s approval for this optimization"

Link (towards the bottom is the quote)

Brent
Did they mention who told them that? (You guys here are starting to make me paranoid about wording and sources... ;) )
 
brent_anderson said:
FiringSquad says they were told NVIDIA had Epic's approval for the "optimization".

Quote from FiringSquad's article:

"<snip>......in NVIDIA’s defense, we’ve been told that they did have Epic’s approval for this optimization"

Link (towards the bottom is the quote)

Brent

Since what nVidia did only involved nVidia's drivers, and had nothing to do with the UT2K3 game code itself, I think it's irrelevant whether Epic "approved" or "disapproved" of it since it had nothing to do with Epic's code. Sweeny's pretty clear about that as he's quoted above. From his point of view Epic is neutral on such issues, although if an IHV wants to discuss it he says Epic is not adverse to private conversations exploring "tradeoffs" an IHV might seek to implement in its drivers. So honestly I would say any characterization of this as an "approval" by Epic would be a mischaracterization of the events. Rather, I think Epic views this as an independent issue involving the IHV and the end user at the exclusion of Epic. In this case it would appear Epic's role was merely advisory. The final decision for an IHV as to whether or not to implement such "tradeoffs" in its drivers is, of course, completely up to the IHV. I think it would be a mistake to label Epic's co-operation with nVidia as an IHV as Epic's "approval" of whatever final decisions nVidia as an IHV might make in its own drivers for its own products. I haven't seen anything indicating nVidia asked for Epic's approval--and only circumstantial evidence to support the idea that Epic even advised nVidia in this particular case.
 
WaltC said:
I haven't seen anything indicating nVidia asked for Epic's approval--and only circumstantial evidence to support the idea that Epic even advised nVidia in this particular case.

And yet unnamed Nvidia staff have been giving this reduction in IQ legitimacy by telling their pet websites (and by extension the public who read the websites), that it's all okay because it's been "approved" by Epic.

Just when you think Nvidia PR can't sink any lower, they find another way of disgusting me. :oops:
 
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
And yet unnamed Nvidia staff have been giving this reduction in IQ legitimacy by telling their pet websites (and by extension the public who read the websites), that it's all okay because it's been "approved" by Epic.

Just when you think Nvidia PR can't sink any lower, they find another way of disgusting me. :oops:

Yes, the people who run the web sites repeating this rumor, or this "spin" if you will, probably just haven't thought it through. As this is an issue not involving Epic's code in any way, shape, or form, what could there possibly be for Epic to "approve" in the first place? The issue effects only the IQ for nVidia products running the exact same Epic code that the other IHV products run, but without the diminished IQ--that being the only difference. Rather, I think the real "approval" of nVidia's approach here must ultimately come from nVidia's end users, as they are the only ones affected by the decision.
 
Folks, please everything that I said wrt this matter. Specifically, in between the [edit] and [/edit]. And especially my opening sentence after the [edit]... that was worded differently than my actual question to Tim... in my email to Tim, I didn't actually ask if Tim/Epic approves of what NVIDIA did (re this UT2003-specific filtering thing). And especially my statement about why I did not feel comfortable revealing the contents of my email to Tim... I asked Tim a straight-forward/point-blank question and he gave me the answer as I posted it. My question is more-or-less the same as what FS asked NVIDIA (or maybe FS didn't ask but NVIDIA offered it to them):

FiringSquad said:
......in NVIDIA’s defense, we’ve been told that they did have Epic’s approval for this optimization

... but I didn't ask NVIDIA... I asked Tim, founder of Epic. Better that way.
 
Reverend said:
Folks, please everything that I said wrt this matter. Specifically, in between the [edit] and [/edit]. And especially my opening sentence after the [edit]... that was worded differently than my actual question to Tim... in my email to Tim, I didn't actually ask if Tim/Epic approves of what NVIDIA did (re this UT2003-specific filtering thing). And especially my statement about why I did not feel comfortable revealing the contents of my email to Tim... I asked Tim a straight-forward/point-blank question and he gave me the answer as I posted it. My question is more-or-less the same as what FS asked NVIDIA (or maybe FS didn't ask but NVIDIA offered it to them):

FiringSquad said:
......in NVIDIA’s defense, we’ve been told that they did have Epic’s approval for this optimization

... but I didn't ask NVIDIA... I asked Tim, founder of Epic. Better that way.
Who is "FS" again, I've almost got it...
 
Reverend said:
Folks, please everything that I said wrt this matter. Specifically, in between the [edit] and [/edit]. And especially my opening sentence after the [edit]... that was worded differently than my actual question to Tim... in my email to Tim, I didn't actually ask if Tim/Epic approves of what NVIDIA did (re this UT2003-specific filtering thing). And especially my statement about why I did not feel comfortable revealing the contents of my email to Tim... I asked Tim a straight-forward/point-blank question and he gave me the answer as I posted it. My question is more-or-less the same as what FS asked NVIDIA (or maybe FS didn't ask but NVIDIA offered it to them):

FiringSquad said:
......in NVIDIA’s defense, we’ve been told that they did have Epic’s approval for this optimization

... but I didn't ask NVIDIA... I asked Tim, founder of Epic. Better that way.

Rev,

I thought Sweeny's own remarks were very clear when he said:

Tim Sweeny said:
We often have informal conversations with NVidia and ATI about performance/quality tradeoffs and shortcuts, but these are private discussions and not public endorsements or rejection of the tradeoffs they make.

What I get out of that is that there is no issue of "approval" or "disapproval" from his point of view. I read that as a statement that although he will help an IHV with questions pertaining to "tradeoffs and shortcuts" the advice he provides an IHV in that case is neutral from his perspective, and does not connote either "endorsement or rejection" of what an IHV does with respect to whatever tradeoff issues an IHV might discuss with him. IE, he's saying that whatever an IHV does is up to the IHV, not to him. That's what I get out of it.
 
This thread has given me something to think about. My dad told me the other day I sound like a politician (which many people tell me) when he was trying to find out my "gameplan for life". :rolleyes: Of course, I've gotten very good at avoiding answering what I really am thinking or doing. Unfortunately, I had a few beers before he got home since I got done with some work and I couldn't give 100%.

I've often worked around the truth or something I want to hide. After all, I've had some serious issues with parents, friends, girls and school... so why not work around the truth if it sets you free (or at least that's what it seems like at the moment)? When under extreme pressure though, I end up faltering in my attempts to cover something up, which I usually only do nowadays for my parents or for some other people I don't want to deal with because they are bringing me down with their bad business, idiocy or negativity (nothing to with the internet though).

When reading this thread, I couldn't help but relate the same kind of thing to Kyle in that I only do what I do when I feel cornered, weak, vulnerable, teamed up on or I just generally feel everything I want will fall apart if I don't work around it (the problem).

Thought I would just add this. It seems relevant to the discussion on Kyle's reasoning.
 
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