Kutaragi talks CELL technology @ TGS2002

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http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20020921/tgsf.htm

Now if only i know Japanese. :D

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CELL will mark the new beginning of non Wintel entertainment technology. .. or so i hope. :oops:
 
This sure sounds familiar -- didn't he say pretty much the same thing when announcing the PlayStation 2's Emotion Engine? Or when he announced the GSCube? He's given to hyperbole, I think.

Looking at the diagrams, it looks like Cell is either a 32-cpu-on-one die thing, or a 16 cpu-on-one-die thing. (Or maybe just 8-on-a-die if their yields suck. :) )

The rack mounted thousands-of-chips-on-a-server stuff is absurd for games and entertainment. Nobody needs more general purpose CPU power that far away from the user. Network apps are pretty much entirely constrained by storage and bandwidth issues, not by CPU power.

A case in point: Google runs on hundreds of low-end P3s. They wouldn't benefit from CELL technology because they aren't CPU-bound. Google is RAM-bound -- switching to CELL technology would make Google run slower on a per-CPU basis as the 32 CPUs contended for access to RAM.

I think what's happening is that non-x86 CPU designers have pretty much given up on making CPUs faster, and now all they can think to do is to put multiple CPUs on one die. (And wave their arms about how, if you could figure out how to program it, the result would be much faster than a single CPU with the same number of transistors.)

That's possibly a reasonable approach for implementing vertex shaders, but vertex shaders are such a specialized problem that it's likely to be even more efficient to create a special-purpose GPU. The Cell approach is only superior if there are a large number of general game problems which can take advantage of the extra processing power.

So you're basicly talking about being able to run your AI and Physics code on your GPU when it's not being used to run vertex shaders. I wonder what the CPU budget is for graphics vs. AI vs. Physics in a modern game.
 
Ok, Your not understanding the concept at all. I'll do my best to talk threw what your missing. I'm not going to repond to duffers extreme pestimism quote-by-quote as thats not helping. So, just hang with me.


Basic idea. You get a whole bunch of existing or near future technolgies and put them together. Hopefully, the sum will be much greater than the parts.

Overview (go into more details later) You get a fast and scalable processing architecture - CELL - that runs off a single OS, conforms to OGSA GRID computing standards, and has other cool features like many autonomous aspects (self-enhansing preformance, securitry, ect).

The network is thus boadband based and can be used for gaming, distributed media content - basically anything that used offline processing power.


But, this is Beyond3D, so I'll concentrate on games. The idea is to compute all raster functions locally (where they must be), but do what Sony's pushing as "World Simulation" on the network side. This can be anything that doesn't require RT processing like rasterization - Think AI, Physics, basically once you get used to the idea you can go a hell of alot.

So, by splitting up the tasks you free, say, ~50% of the local resources; but double the local processing potential devoted to rasterization and increase the 'World Simulation' stuff by a theoretically infinate level. This is how you beat Moore's Law by 10 years, you need to boost transistor count and do it threw GRID computing on offlines tasks.

The costs are absorbed by (just me thinking) the distributed content - Sony realigned itrself in 2000 and is preparing for convergence and the digital distrobution od media from their huge production houses. (They have like 10 or 100X more digitized film and TV than the next person). But this really doesn't concern Beyond3D.



Now, He expressed concern of Cell's architecture and bandwith of 32 CPU's sucking threw one bus. Well, According to Okomoto at GDC '02, the Cell is composed of the Cores and a "pluralty" of RAM. The whole idea of Cellular computing is keeping the execution units fed by integrating the whole "cell" or execution units and their assocaited RAM and busses. So, on-chip bandwith should be huge.

The idea behind Cell as off 2001 was to totally kill and end the idea of a cache and put everything on the die. I don't yet know the full microarchitecture oc "Cell' and can't say how they intend to get 1TFlop as Kutaragi said. They licenced the MIPS-64 core, but unless they strip it down and bolt on some serious FMACs I dunno... yet

They stated 1 TFlop, so we'll see.


I think thats enough information for now :)

It's about time they get newer graphs

PS. If anyone who I sent the old ones to has webspace and wants to post them feel free to - because I don't have space... just label it Vince's present to the asshole naysayers and I'll be happy. :)
 
Vince said:
The idea is to compute all raster functions locally (where they must be), but do what Sony's pushing as "World Simulation" on the network side

This can't be done in any meaningful way. The problem is not bandwidth--broadband doesn't help you out. The problem is latency. There is no network product even on the horizon that would deliver services to the consumer with low enough latency that any game task could be off-loaded to a server. The trend with multi-player games has been to have more and more of the world-simulation done locally (to minimize the appearance of lag) and use the network for as little as possible--basically, just little pokes to the local simulation when it has made an incorrect prediction.
 
That slide look mighty familar with the IBM Blue Genes project, the other Cell thingy. No suprise really.

In 2005? 10PFLOPS ? MATRIX ? Kutaragi needs to get off the stuff his been using lately.

Sometimes reading Japanese term for 'network' and such, can bring a smile :)
 
Xengamers:

Most intriguing however, Kutaragi-san spoke at length regarding Sony's CELL processor technology which is being developed in partnership with IBM and Toshiba. Specifically, he lamented over misleading reports suggesting the technology was being developed for the PlayStation 3. He spoke primarily about the prospects of CELL and its chief application in future networking devices.

Er.. so CELL != PS3. Licensed MIPS = PS3 ?

http://www.xengamers.com/sections/news/8690/

zurich
 
What needs FLOPS? Games, HPC and to a small extent business computing.

Will business computing run on a Cell based network? Not bloody likely. HPC? Maybe, but it wouldnt be a huge market. Some small parts of games could in theory, in a theoretical universe with universally available multi-Megabit/s level broadband and dependable internet connections, but as long as there is no real other applications all the headaches you get from distributing computation away from the console without any guarantuee of reliable broadband connections would be ridiculous.

Mobile applications dont need FLOPS, neither does content distribution. So any architecture which comes anywhere close to the ridiculous claims from mr. Kuturagi would not represent a very efficient architecture to build remote services for those applications on.

If Cell ends up just being used as a processor in a distributed server system to run multiplayer game servers it would be a bit of a letdown to say the least.
 
According to the article, one cell is 1 Gflops. And a 32 cell chip is 32 Gflops. Wheres's the promised 1 Tflops chip? It actually takes a 64 chip board to get 2 Tflops of performance. Sony once again fails to deliver on their promises?
 
How about we wait till 2005 or whatever date PS3 is to be launched. :oops:
 
I wonder if the PS3 is going to be backwards compatible with the PS2? My guess is that yes, it will be. In which case it's very likely to have at least 2 MIPS cores on it -- the same two as on the PS2.


I bet they also have a 32-way CELL chip as their T&L unit. Maybe as their rasterization unit, too.
 
Talk about an all time let down :)

So a CELL is something along the line of a PPC 405 core with a FPU on it. Guessing that the 1GFLOP number is achieved using fused multiply-adds, it will run @ 500MHz (would be tough to cram 32 superfast cores on one die anyway).

Unless IBM/SONY comes up with the panacea in parallel programming this thing is going to be a *bitch* to program, and not even then reaching stellar performance (for a 2005 part that is).

Cheers (to the Sony hype machine)
Gubbi
 
Hype? :-?

Good god, it's just friggen conference presentation! :devilish: But I guess everybody who delivers a presentation at a conference or expo *must* be a hype machine right? :rolleyes: The damn thing had practically nothing to do with the PS3, and was primarily a business recap and presentation on online business strategy! JHC...! :rolleyes:

What an amazing super power Sony must have, that at the utterance of a single word people worldwide can reduced to driveling troglodytes! Sheesh, and here I thought that sort of power was reserved for politicians like Saddam and Shrub v2.0... :(
 
Suffice to say, it certainly appears that many people who choose to separate themself from the PS2 camp are very threatened by Sony trying something radically different from the conventional Intel/nVidia PC design.
 
PC-Engine -
Doesn't look like the hype is going to work this time

Johnney -
Good one Sony. At this rate we'll have Toy Story graphics by the year 2052


How 'bout the two of you pull the cocks out of your collective asses, stick them in your mouths and shut the fuck up.

Your both useless to any form of technical descussion and I (and I know I'm not alone) are getting sick of this extremely biased bullshit. Your no better than a person like Derek Smart who just caused the BS over in the PC forum. Keep it up...

If you'd like to comment on a technical aspect within the confins of what was announced or I mentioned, then please do so. If you just want spread comments like that then please go to the GA or TXBox forums....

I thought you learned after the BS from a year or two ago Johnney how stupid you sound... get ready for another rude-awakining.

PS. Good pts Archie...
 
duffer said:
I wonder if the PS3 is going to be backwards compatible with the PS2? My guess is that yes, it will be. In which case it's very likely to have at least 2 MIPS cores on it -- the same two as on the PS2.

Good point, but perhaps they will just use a shrunken EE+GS chip on the .1um process they liecensed like proposed earlier this year by Sony as an IOP or a sound processor or both - thus it would be in a similar configuration to the way PS2 gets it's Backwards compatability.

My hunch is that the MIPS64 core that they liecensed, if used in each sub-cell, will be stripped down significantly and used.
 
I don't see physics as being possible on a Grid.

AI maybe, but not physics.

Physics must be computed per frame, it has similar latency requirements as rasterization -- so a Grid physics engine would have to be able to partition and transmit the game state to all the remote nodes running the simlulation, have them schedule the simulation, run it, and return the results in < 30 ms.

Somehow, I don't think that will happen.

On the other hand, server-side physics is routinely done in a client-server architecture game. The client typically also simulates a portion of the physics to reduce perceptable lag (see Quake netcode, or netcode for any modern FPS or MMORPG), but the authoritative version of the world exists on the server, which is usually a single machine or (at most) a small cluster of machines, not a Grid.

This model is not affected as much by lag, because the world is simulated on BOTH the client and the server, and the server sends corrections whenever the client get too far out of whack.

A Grid is not going to help you here.
 
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