KZ3 had more variety of locations (junkyard, jungle, ice land, space station, and of course battlefield).
It’s probably better to focus on a few based on story needs.
KILLZONE Shadow Fall [PS4]
- Thread starter RenegadeRocks
- Start date
KZ3 had more variety of locations (junkyard, jungle, ice land, space station, and of course battlefield).
It’s probably better to focus on a few based on story needs.
Billy Idol
Legend
Killzone universe is astoundingly rich. GG just cannot translate this into actual story in their games. If someone is interested, here is a nice read:
http://killzone.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline
But it is exactly the problem imo: you need to read stuff in the wiki to fully understand what's going on and get background information...instead of playing the games.
I hope that GG manages to better incorporate the rich universe into the new KZ and makes an interesting story/improves story telling with interesting characters.
The hinted 'Berlin wall' situation on Vekta in the shown vids is indeed very interesting with lot's of potential...
http://killzone.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline
But it is exactly the problem imo: you need to read stuff in the wiki to fully understand what's going on and get background information...instead of playing the games.
I hope that GG manages to better incorporate the rich universe into the new KZ and makes an interesting story/improves story telling with interesting characters.
The hinted 'Berlin wall' situation on Vekta in the shown vids is indeed very interesting with lot's of potential...
rockaman
Regular
None of those things are conveyed in the games, except for Killzone 1 and Liberation. That's a serious problem for me at least. How can you engage people for a long period in a series without relateable characters or a sensible format for the story, COD notwithstanding. Killzone will get relegated to third and fourth place all the time if it just tries to be a doppleganger of another game but in space. The original Killzone sold well too even for all the problems it had, and people looked forward to the second because of the original. I really have no idea why they abandoned all the cool things that Killzone 1 offered and just added the technology of Killzone 2 on top.
The other games don't even attempt to give you a sense of what is going on (at least Killzone 3 which just insists that the player fight a war as the most unlikable characters I think I've played in any game). And I wish it wasn't true. I don't see why they went through the work to make an interesting back story and the use a buffoon such as Rico in the game as if it reflected any of that back story.
They at least made an effort to have some interesting characters and relationships in Killzone 1. Even between the Helghast Hakha and the rest of the squad, they used the universe in a really good way. I'm really sad they decided to abandon it after only one game and go the dudebro route...
The other games don't even attempt to give you a sense of what is going on (at least Killzone 3 which just insists that the player fight a war as the most unlikable characters I think I've played in any game). And I wish it wasn't true. I don't see why they went through the work to make an interesting back story and the use a buffoon such as Rico in the game as if it reflected any of that back story.
They at least made an effort to have some interesting characters and relationships in Killzone 1. Even between the Helghast Hakha and the rest of the squad, they used the universe in a really good way. I'm really sad they decided to abandon it after only one game and go the dudebro route...
Sigfried1977
Legend
If Guerilla depicted the Helghast as being more than the stereotypical cackling space Nazis everyone loves to kill, your average shooter player would probably accuse the developers of being Nazi sympathizers. Sounds a little extreme, but if you take a look at your average gaming message board, it probably isn't all that far-fetched.
That's no excuse of course.
That's no excuse of course.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
To be fair, Halo has been doing this for years
In reality the vast majority of FPS gamers care mostly about the MP of those games, and for the KZ series that's little different.
I may be alone in my opinion but I rather enjoyed the story of KZ2. In that in KZ2 it wasn't really a story that was attempted to be told TO THE PLAYER. It was more of an event that the player experiences through the eyes on an avatar in the game world. You took on the experience of Sev; some random ISA soldier, and had to experience through his own eyes the ISA invasion of Helghan. It was awesome BECAUSE it didn't need to be anything more complex or developed than that. And the final assault on Visari's palace was like my favourite gaming moment of this gen BECAUSE of the fact that I felt as if it was actually meaningful, in that I had earned the right to fight in that most historic battle, by having fought my way through Helghan, tooth and nail to get there. It was gritty, it was immersive, and best of all the game barely took you out of the action for too long. You always felt as if you were in the fight, and its ultimate end result rested on your ability to suceed as a soldier.
I loved KZ2 way more than KZ1 BECAUSE of its immersiveness. Sure the art and atmosphere was there, but it was the visceral immersive war-like experience that made KZ2 for me. KZ3 was dissappointing in that regard, because regardless of what they did with the colour pallete, the game just felt like every other game in that I was watching a group of guys in a story being told TO ME, rather than THROUGH ME. It sucked, and pulled you out of the action far too much.
In some ways I can agree that KZ3 deviated too much from the dreary grittiness of KZ2. It just didn't feel like the same Helghan in KZ3, and the green petracite(?) stuff and super advanced tech of Stahl just seemed abit too clean and surgical for the KZ2 gritty space nazi design that made the Helghast in KZ2 so bloody indimidating. I mean the first time I saw the Helghast sniper in KZ2 i thought it was the greatest enemy design ever (still do for the genre). KZ3's elites just seemed a bit generic in comparison, and nowhere near as impactful or fear-inducing.
For me the changes to the KZ artsytle from KZ1&2 to KZ3 were a bit more than just the colour pallette. But anyway i'm glad that this game doesn't follow on from KZ3 and that they seem to have gone back to a more traditional KZ2-like Helghast design. I do hope they continue like that.
That said, I can see where Grall is coming from, and I don't think he's even being elitist or arrogant at all. I think he's probably just sick to death of hearing people whining about something they have only seen like 30 secs of, and I think that is justified. Sure, people might say that they are fearful for the direction of the KZ series based on KZ3, and I think that is also a justifiable position, but I would encourage those people holding out and waiting to see more of GG's vision for KZ:SF before making their minds up about what the game is and the overall direction it has taken.
rockaman
Regular
I agree with you in that sense. I am still waiting, but to be skeptical I can't give up right now.
It's just that GG has been deviating for a very long time, even with MP. Just look at the Killzone forums. For the fans willing to go to the Killzone forums, even they are unhappy with changes to the MP. And a good proportion of them too.
Some games need a bit more spice to say we're doing things a bit differently, here's why you will like it. There's a lot of risk I think to just compete on sales as movies against Transformers or Avatar or as games against juggernauts of games like Halo or Call of Duty.
If ARMA tried to be more like Call of Duty for example, I bet there would be military simulation hardcore guys bringing flames to Bohemia as well
In the end... not every game series is Halo or Call of Duty
In that sense I'm worried the Killzone franchise will be treading water, while also not satisfying the SP fans. And then Killzone is just another FPS game (to me).
But I agree there will be people who like that, or people who will only want to play the MP, and could care less about SP.
As one of those SP fans though, I probably would not have bought Killzone 2 had Killzone 1 not been the game it was.
It's just that GG has been deviating for a very long time, even with MP. Just look at the Killzone forums. For the fans willing to go to the Killzone forums, even they are unhappy with changes to the MP. And a good proportion of them too.
Some games need a bit more spice to say we're doing things a bit differently, here's why you will like it. There's a lot of risk I think to just compete on sales as movies against Transformers or Avatar or as games against juggernauts of games like Halo or Call of Duty.
If ARMA tried to be more like Call of Duty for example, I bet there would be military simulation hardcore guys bringing flames to Bohemia as well
In the end... not every game series is Halo or Call of Duty
In that sense I'm worried the Killzone franchise will be treading water, while also not satisfying the SP fans. And then Killzone is just another FPS game (to me).
But I agree there will be people who like that, or people who will only want to play the MP, and could care less about SP.
As one of those SP fans though, I probably would not have bought Killzone 2 had Killzone 1 not been the game it was.
I think you might see conquests like that in Mercenary, but not for Shadowfall.
I think we're gonna be mainly be defending against Hellghan invasion on the border, and commit operations on Helghan side of the wall.
It could still have some sort of dynamic scenarios, i.e if on one level, it'd be fun to see several Mawlers come trampling through the buildings in the Vectan cityscape, and maybe the difficulty could change on the follow up levels depending on how many got through your defences, or maybe it would be more territory to retake depending on where you and the Vectans were able to stop them. :-/
I think we're gonna be mainly be defending against Hellghan invasion on the border, and commit operations on Helghan side of the wall.
It could still have some sort of dynamic scenarios, i.e if on one level, it'd be fun to see several Mawlers come trampling through the buildings in the Vectan cityscape, and maybe the difficulty could change on the follow up levels depending on how many got through your defences, or maybe it would be more territory to retake depending on where you and the Vectans were able to stop them. :-/
Prophecy2k
Veteran
I think as a production, given that Resistance is dead and KZ is now Sony's flagship FPS title, I would like to see Sony and GG match games like COD and Halo, not in gameplay or style but in their sheer breadth of content.
I feel as if too many dev forget that part of what makes those franchises popular is not JUST their competitive MP and/or SP modes. Rather its the breadth of modes on offer that allow for a little something for everyone to enjoy.
KZ:SF needs to have some kind of horde mode, campaign co-op, (split screen co-op if possible), along with more innovative and unique extra modes that really place the franchise on the levels of those other games in terms of scope of content on offer. Sony and Insomniac tried it with R2, but they changed the core of the game too significantly, and Insomniac didn't have enough time to polish the game such that it had is plethora of modes but much of it just felt unfinished. Actually R2 even proves my point becuase even though the game is almost universally slated by gamers online, everyone seems to have nothing bad to say about the four-player co-op mode, the fact that the game had campaign co-op and 60 player MP (even thought the competitive MP wasn't all that great.
I'd love to see Sony really invest in KZ like that. So for the SP campaign take it back to KZ2's weighty gunplay, immersiveness and fantastic level and scenario design; go wild with competitive MP with huge maps and lots of players (you've got the HW capability now); have a 2-4+ player co-op mode like R2 where you can play as the helghast as well as the ISA; throw in some other wild and wacky modes like KZ bowling or a KZ themed spaceship dog-fighting MP/Co-op mode.
If they did that, and managed to pull it off, I'd pay more than $70 for the title and throw any amount at them for microtransactions, just for giving me the greatest KZ game of all time
I feel as if too many dev forget that part of what makes those franchises popular is not JUST their competitive MP and/or SP modes. Rather its the breadth of modes on offer that allow for a little something for everyone to enjoy.
KZ:SF needs to have some kind of horde mode, campaign co-op, (split screen co-op if possible), along with more innovative and unique extra modes that really place the franchise on the levels of those other games in terms of scope of content on offer. Sony and Insomniac tried it with R2, but they changed the core of the game too significantly, and Insomniac didn't have enough time to polish the game such that it had is plethora of modes but much of it just felt unfinished. Actually R2 even proves my point becuase even though the game is almost universally slated by gamers online, everyone seems to have nothing bad to say about the four-player co-op mode, the fact that the game had campaign co-op and 60 player MP (even thought the competitive MP wasn't all that great.
I'd love to see Sony really invest in KZ like that. So for the SP campaign take it back to KZ2's weighty gunplay, immersiveness and fantastic level and scenario design; go wild with competitive MP with huge maps and lots of players (you've got the HW capability now); have a 2-4+ player co-op mode like R2 where you can play as the helghast as well as the ISA; throw in some other wild and wacky modes like KZ bowling or a KZ themed spaceship dog-fighting MP/Co-op mode.
If they did that, and managed to pull it off, I'd pay more than $70 for the title and throw any amount at them for microtransactions, just for giving me the greatest KZ game of all time
That phrase makes me feel sad... I'm sure they've got it in them for one last outing on the PS4.
To be fair, Halo has been doing this for years
Yeah, that must be why there is no character in Halo that gamers can instantly recognize and know by name, whereas KZ has such a protagonist.
Oh wait, it's the other way around.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
What has this got to do with the post I was replying to?
The point I was making was that a game doesn't need to have a fanastic story and relateable characters to hold gamers' attentions and keep them coming back. For FPS in particular, that statement is never more true.
Both Halo and KZ games have had pretty awful stories, told pretty awfully throughout their respective series (although I would exempt H4 from that as I haven't played thus cannot comment).
I would love to see both series have games where the excellent back-story and expanded universe is dutifully and compellingly respresented in-game. I've yet to see that from both, and hopefully their next-gen iterations will fix that for me
Prophecy2k
Veteran
I would love to see a R4 on PS4. After R3 and how magnificent it was, I would pay any amount for R4. Perhaps Sony might give it to a new developer?
On the other hand i think i would prefer any other dev, and even Insomniac games to focus on new IPs this coming gen. I think we'll get enough sequelitis (avec microtransaction injections) from 3rd Parties. Sony needs to keep on innovating with the titles they publish, just have they've been doing this gen.
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rockaman
Regular
What has this got to do with the post I was replying to?
The point I was making was that a game doesn't need to have a fanastic story and relateable characters to hold gamers' attentions and keep them coming back. For FPS in particular, that statement is never more true.
Both Halo and KZ games have had pretty awful stories, told pretty awfully throughout their respective series (although I would exempt H4 from that as I haven't played thus cannot comment).
I would love to see both series have games where the excellent back-story and expanded universe is dutifully and compellingly respresented in-game. I've yet to see that from both, and hopefully their next-gen iterations will fix that for me
I think what he meant was maybe Halo did a better job of drawing out its universe and making its main characters memorable. Everyone knows Chief and Cortana and Covenant even if you don't own a Xbox lol. Surely most gamers know that the flood is some nasty bunch of zombies and should be feared
And even if the story is poor in both games, I think Halo has done a much better job of conveying its story. You wouldn't know any of the Killzone back story playing any of the games...
Even though he was being cheeky about Chief being more memorable than say Sev... Lol.
Also Templar >>>> Sev or Rico any day of the week... At least Killzone 1 did a good job telling its story unlike the last two games... Le sigh...
P.S. I also loved the Resistance series. Resistance 3 was a really great game and they really took fans feedback to heart making the game more like the original. If they make a 4 in the same vein I would have no problem with that... I only wish Sony and Insomniac were in better days of their relationship. They seem more than removed today. Hopefully we hear something different in the future. They made a lot of great games together.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
I think what he meant was maybe Halo did a better job of drawing out its universe and making its main characters memorable. Everyone knows Chief and Cortana and Covenant even if you don't own a Xbox lol. Surely most gamers know that the flood is some nasty bunch of zombies and should be feared
And even if the story is poor in both games, I think Halo has done a much better job of conveying its story. You wouldn't know any of the Killzone back story playing any of the games...
Even though he was being cheeky about Chief being more memorable than say Sev... Lol.
Also Templar >>>> Sev or Rico any day of the week... At least Killzone 1 did a good job telling its story unlike the last two games... Le sigh...
P.S. I also loved the Resistance series. Resistance 3 was a really great game and they really took fans feedback to heart making the game more like the original. If they make a 4 in the same vein I would have no problem with that... I only wish Sony and Insomniac were in better days of their relationship. They seem more than removed today. Hopefully we hear something different in the future. They made a lot of great games together.
The thing is, the original argument was about the games bringing out their universe's back-story in the game narrative, and making characters that are relatable. Characters being identifiable and iconic wasn't even a point of discussion and so is irrelevant. Halos characters have been at best one-dimensional and stereotypical (not necessarily a bad thing for he genre), and at worst wooden and sorely lacking in any kind of character and identity whatsoever. Also, outside of Halo:CE (H4 I cannot comment on), the story in Halo games has been poor to downright awful, with the most recent prior to H4 (which I haven't played) being completely illegible without being deeply immersed in the expanded universe materials... so no different to KZ games there. Beside that however, I would argue that outside John Halo (aka Master Chief) and Cortana, none of Halo's other characters are iconic or readily identifiable to people not directly familiar with the series. In the same vein, KZ has the Helghast and Visari, which are I would argue equally as iconic and identifiable by thier iconic visual design.
Back to the original point of discussion however, in terms of universe exposition in the game narrative, Halo games have been utter tosh outside of Halo CE and to a far lesser extent Reach. None of the subsequent Halo games really suffered for it however. Equally I argued that KZ2, which had effectively minimal story, neither suffered for its narrative exposition, and in fact was a far better game in the story and narrative department than its sequel.
Neither series has produced a game that narrative-wise, stands as "best in class" (or even brilliant). Even if you might subjectively deem the story in Halo games to be better told than that in the KZ games, I would argue that both have been so bad (with so few exceptions) that it becomes a pretty meaningless comparison.
I would absolutely love for KZ:SF to tell a fantastic story with "real" and relateable characters that I actually care about. But even if they don't, and they simply go back to KZ2's narrative formula of "visceral battle, fought tooth & nail through the eyes of a game-world avatar", with effectively sufficient context to set the scene, and everything else being simply your own tale told thorugh your own gameplay in an immersive game world, then I'd be happy enough to praise the game. If GG can't give me the rivetting story I dream of in a KZ game, then they should just go back to KZ1 & 2 and iterate on what they did best in those titles, and that would be enough for me.
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i play halo series. Halo PC (is it halo 1 or 2?) halo reach, halo 4. But i never understand that FLOOD is zombies?
when they talks about "The Flood" that devastate things, i though they literally mean water flood haha.
as for KZ, i only played one KZ game. I think its KZ 3 :/
I think what he meant was maybe Halo did a better job of drawing out its universe and making its main characters memorable. Everyone knows Chief and Cortana and Covenant even if you don't own a Xbox lol. Surely most gamers know that the flood is some nasty bunch of zombies and should be feared
I own an xbox360, dunno who cortana or covenant is.
Ah, Should try KZ2 also ! It's a highly polished and beautiful game. Plays very differently from KZ3.
RenegadeRocks
Legend
https://mobile.twitter.com/StevenTerHeide1/status/315402649216352256
In Twitter news: KZSF campaign is playable from startto fonish and has been for quite some time now. Big fixing to start soon ! Hope they make a killer MP like KZ2.
Please please please GG don't ape COD and make a true KZ game.
In Twitter news: KZSF campaign is playable from startto fonish and has been for quite some time now. Big fixing to start soon ! Hope they make a killer MP like KZ2.
Please please please GG don't ape COD and make a true KZ game.
Billy Idol
Legend
+1! Look at R3 and go back to KZ2 roots...
