Killzone Prerendered E3 Trailer Talk

[dubert]

You see how things are? What they've come to?

Here, a thread I would never read because it has 'flaming' written all over it, I'm forced to browse over because it's become the subject of a debate back 'home.'

Dubert I *was* going to ask you for some means of verifying your employment and/or position in the industry, but after reading over this thread I think it's safe to say that either way, you know your sh*t when it comes to this stuff.

That being said I would ask *why* you bothered to start this whole thing off in the first place? I echo the thought of others n this thread when I say it really does seem rather immature and unprofessional to do what you're doing. I can understand that you may personally dislike Sony and/or prefer 360 and wish to bring your own personal experience to the debate, but really there would be much better ways of addressing that on your end than the whole trailer re-hash. A thread entitled 'Limits of Next-gen real-time rendering' put in the console technology forum would have been much better I feel in terms of leaving the 'soldiers' at home, and would have promoted a more civil debate while at the same time allowing you to address Killzone specifically.

This whole thread is just a ruin of intellect, and to be honest if you want to post anything in fact confirming your position in the industry/proximity to the KZ trailer, it would probably aid greatly in silencing your detractors across the web, because I should not be having to do that for you on another forum without even being familiar with you.

Actually, I didn't create this as a thread... It was moved from another thread into a separate one... So the title of the thread was done by someone else ( a moderator ), and the first post is out of context, which doesn't even refer to the KZ trailer, it in fact refers to RE5 trailer.

 

[Carl B]

Actually, I didn't create this as a thread... It was moved from another thread into a separate one... So the title of the thread was done by someone else ( a moderator ), and the first post is out of context, which doesn't even refer to the KZ trailer, it in fact refers to RE5 trailer.

Well, I guess that's better than having it in the RE5. Still though the whole topic would be better off 'de-energized' somehow. Too much emotion wrapped up in here. (Mckmass for god's sake they're only games, you'll be fine. )

Also word is that English is not your first language, which is good to hear, but your sig would read better if it read: "People can mature quite a bit in just a few years." As it stands now it's sort of garbled.

 

[dubert]

That's all fine and dandy, but I expected a bigger jump between launch games (i.e. Call of Duty 2), other first gen games (i.e. Gears of War), and future next-gen games. I'm not a programmer at all. I just love to play videogames and I love to read about how they are made. But I really hope you are horribly wrong with your assetment about the future of next-gen games.If you are correct then me and litterly millions of other people will dread next-gen games. Well everybody expect Nintendo Revolution owners because at least they have the next-gen controller. I'm sorry but if games aren't going to get that much better than Gears of War then why are you even excited? You've seen the excitement that a video like KZ or Motorstorm can do to people. Even editors of multimillion dollar magazines stated that the KZ is what they expected from next-gen systems. Again if you are right the world is at a loss here.Another question, have you seen the Motorstorm video? If so do you think it is possible on next-gen systems?

Well, I think going from virtually no normalmaps ( with exceptions on some platforms ), to normalmaps, perpixel lighting + alot of other nifty effects, is pretty good for this generation of consoles.

I'd have to see the Motorstorm video again, havent's seen it since it came out...

 

[dubert]

Also word is that English is not your first language, which is good to hear, but your sig would read better if it read: "People can mature quite a bit in just a few years." As it stands now it's sort of garbled.

Thank you for pointing that out. As I said, I'm still learning.

 

[dubert]

That's all fine and dandy, but I expected a bigger jump between launch games (i.e. Call of Duty 2), other first gen games (i.e. Gears of War), and future next-gen games. I'm not a programmer at all. I just love to play videogames and I love to read about how they are made. But I really hope you are horribly wrong with your assetment about the future of next-gen games.If you are correct then me and litterly millions of other people will dread next-gen games. Well everybody expect Nintendo Revolution owners because at least they have the next-gen controller. I'm sorry but if games aren't going to get that much better than Gears of War then why are you even excited? You've seen the excitement that a video like KZ or Motorstorm can do to people. Even editors of multimillion dollar magazines stated that the KZ is what they expected from next-gen systems. Again if you are right the world is at a loss here.Another question, have you seen the Motorstorm video? If so do you think it is possible on next-gen systems?

After seeing Motorstorm, I would say it could be realtime, but I only found a low resolution video, so I can't be sure. It had nice smoke effects, but not in the same depth as Hypervoxels.
And the background graphics seemed to have photos of real surroundings textured on it.
The motion blur seems to be a good quality vector blur. I would say it's possible. But can't be sure until I see a HQ version.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

There are HD res screenshots floating around...

 

[dubert]

There are HD res screenshots floating around...

Motion tells you more than images.
For example, you could see how light reacts to objects, and how the motion blur behaves, etc.

 

[nelg]

dubert,

Do you think that something like Ati's Toy Shop Demo could be achieved in real time with in the context of a game? By that I mean with the addition of characters and physics etc..

 

[mckmas8808]

Too much emotion wrapped up in here. (Mckmass for god's sake they're only games, you'll be fine. )

Yeah they are games, but I spend my hard damn money on them. And I don't want to spend close to $500 a year over top of spending at least $400 for a console that gives me dimishing returns. If the PS3 can't get close to producing what I seen in the KZ video then Nintendo will have a new console buying with the Revolution. I want a real next-gen expirence not some little normal maps upgrades.

Though I will say I will like to see what HS looks like before I give up on the meaty next-gen machines and go for a lesser one instead.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Motion tells you more than images.
For example, you could see how light reacts to objects, and how the motion blur behaves, etc.

Image quality tells you a lot, too, don't you think so? Even if LW's AA isn't the best...

 

[London Geezer]

What you mean "a console that gives me diminishing returns"??

Diminishing returns is an effect that will inevitably happen as time goes by. It's already clear that the difference beteen PS1 and PS2 was bigger than PS2 to PS3, and the difference between PS3 and PS4 will be even smaller. It's not because PS3 is crap, it's because of diminishing returns. If you don't like it, there's nothing you or we can do about it. After a certain point, it will take an exponentially larger amount of system resources to get the noticeable differences with each generation.

That's why focusing on the hardware is just useless, like i've been saying for bloody ages. The good stuff will be in the way the artists and animators make games. It will all depend on the art and the movement of the games, not technicalities.

But you people don't listen to me, keep arguing over MSAA and HDR and Blast Processing...

 

[Tesselator]

You see how things are? What they've come to?

Here, a thread I would never read because it has 'flaming' written all over it, I'm forced to browse over because it's become the subject of a debate back 'home.'

Dubert I *was* going to ask you for some means of verifying your employment and/or position in the industry, but after reading over this thread I think it's safe to say that either way, you know your sh*t when it comes to this stuff.

That being said I would ask *why* you bothered to start this whole thing off in the first place? I echo the thought of others n this thread when I say it really does seem rather immature and unprofessional to do what you're doing.

You are either selectivly reading posts or you have misunderstood
more than 30% of what you have read so far. The reasons were
clearly outlined and implying that someone is immature and
unprofessional for calling a spade a spade and then exercising
the care and consideration to explain themselves to the depths
of which dubert has done here is unexcusable fight-trolling imo.

​

 

[dubert]

dubert,

Do you think that something like Ati's Toy Shop Demo could be achieved in real time with in the context of a game? By that I mean with the addition of characters and physics etc..

In some level, yes. We already have parallax mapping in games. Not sure about the resolution of the textures, since they propably ran it with a card that has 512Mb of memory, and the biggest textures seemed to be concentrated on the are around the toy store. The surroundings seemed to be fairly basic around it.
Realtime reflections and refractions we also have on a single surface, including a fresnel effect, for example in Kameo. I'm not sure about the 300 shader programs just for the water though, seems to be very scene specific, and not that general.
Ambient occlusion can be baked into textures, or even vertices, depending on the usage, and vertex count, and the object in question.
So I would think, yes. Just not with as high resolution textures as Toy Shop had.
Of course the level of detail depends on the game engine. There are so many things that can affect the level of detail.

 

[dubert]

Image quality tells you a lot, too, don't you think so? Even if LW's AA isn't the best...

Hehe, yeah.
The motion blur is definately post process. Propably a vector blur.

 

[Carl B]

You are either selectivly reading posts or you have misunderstood
more than 30% of what you have read so far. The reasons were
clearly outlined and implying that someone is immature and
unprofessional for calling a spade a spade and then exercising
the care and consideration to explain themselves to the depths
of which dubert has done here is unexcusable fight-trolling imo.

​

I called it immature and unprofessional because his cause was simply to 'bring the light' to those who were waiting for the PS3 based on this trailer. No one here needs that kind of help, AFAIK. Do *you* Tesselator? I didn't think so. Plus on the professional level alone, talking down the 'efforts' of a client of the company whos project you have worked on, or your company has worked on, just isn't a very professional thing to do.

I don't have a problem with a spade being called a spade, I have a problem with the manner in which that fact is addressed and presented. And frankly I think your post is out of line accusing anyone of 'troll-fighting.' Dubert hasn't gone to any great 'depths' either IMO, but he's shown himself to have skill in the art, no doubt.

Dubert and I are getting along civily enough, and he explained already how this thread came into being. I'm not sure why you feel you must take it on yourself to defend him when he's already defended himself.

PS - And quit indenting your posts.

 

[Qroach]

I called it immature and unprofessional because his cause was simply to 'bring the light' to those who were waiting for the PS3 based on this trailer. No one here needs that kind of help, AFAIK. Do *you* Tesselator? I didn't think so. Plus on the professional level alone, talking down the 'efforts' of a client of the company whos project you have worked on, or your company has worked on, just isn't a very professional thing to do.

I don't have a problem with a spade being called a spade, I have a problem with the manner in which that fact is addressed and presented. And frankly I think your post is out of line accusing anyone of 'troll-fighting.' Dubert hasn't gone to any great 'depths' either IMO, but he's shown himself to have skill in the art, no doubt.

Dubert and I are getting along civily enough, and he explained already how this thread came into being. I'm not sure why you feel you must take it on yourself to defend him when he's already defended himself.

PS - And quit indenting your posts.

You need a time out. There's no need for you to act so hostile to someone simply telling the truth. If you can't handle it, well that's your problem.

 

[Carl B]

You need a time out. There's no need for you to act so hostile to someone simply telling the truth. If you can't handle it, well that's your problem.

What is the 'truth' I can't handle QRoach?

 

[dubert]

Plus on the professional level alone, talking down the 'efforts' of a client of the company whos project you have worked on, or your company has worked on, just isn't a very professional thing to do.

I don't think I talked down on anyones efforts. I think KZ trailer looks good. But the point is, that it can't be realtime as it was presented.
And I didn't work on that trailer. Just the software used to create it, and not even on the version used. Because the latest version isn't out yet.

 

[Carl B]

I don't think I talked down on anyones efforts. I think KZ trailer looks good. But the point is, that it can't be realtime as it was presented.
And I didn't work on that trailer. Just the software used to create it, and not even on the version used. Because the latest version isn't out yet.

Yeah I agree, it shouldn't be considered realtime - never did I say otherwise. But still, this is a discussion that's already been had here in the past.

I don't have an issue with you Dubert, I just take issue with your motivation in starting this whole thing. I don't even disagree with anything you've said, but when your initial sig is simply to aggravate the fan***s and your stated claim is to kick people out of their supposed PS3 trance, I mean that's just not a constructive way to start off discussion.

Dubert you seem like someone who can contribute to this forum quite constructively, so don't take anything I've said the wrong way. I just hope that in the future you won't view fans of a certain console *on this forum* as zombies that need enlightening.

 

[zidane1strife]

Oh yes. That is not even close to the detail of a real HV. It's missing the diffuse lighting completely for the smoke. And even in this resolution, you can see slices in one of the slow motion views. The diffuse component is actually one of the heavier parts of a volumetric, since the voxel has to cast shadows to each sample, from itself. This seems to be a nice trick tho. But it's not even close to real voxels. And the texture doesn't seem to billow procedurally, which means it's pre calculated using "impostor" slices for that particular view direction. It is fairly simple to do the center *flame* using slices and zbuffer, and some interpolation on the textures. Besides, the background graphics are extremely lowpoly and simple. With only a single explosion effect. Do the same with diffuse lighting, and volumetric textured shadows, using more than 100 slices, and to hundreds of particles, then you'll come close to the KZ trailer.

Most - if not all - realtime smoke/fire effects are done with texture-mapped quad polygons used as particles. They are not volumetric, not 3D, and the textures aren't animated. Not that this would be a bad technique (we use it all the time as well) but it can never look as good as procedural voxel-based 3D effects like what LW does, or what Digital Domain used on movies like The day after tomorrow for tornadoes and water...

Well just saw the cell demo again and here is what was said:

"... uses only the cell processor to render volumetrically all of the performance required to simulate an explosion, thermodynamics, heat, gas, smoke, fire this is not an animation this is not something an artist created this is all purely physics based... heat haze and gasses emitted by the simulation accurately represented on screen..."