Killzone Prerendered E3 Trailer Talk

[London Geezer]

I can't wait for Killzone to come out and be such a crappy game that no one will even care how good it looks.

Really, Killzone could be a cancer cure, it could make world poverty history forever, but now i just hate it to death, with all these discussions and arguments and blah blah blah over the last few months about that bloody 30 seconds video!!! And still going on!!!!!!!! Hundreds of thousands of words wasted over this bloody 30 seconds footage....

It could be the new Ico, the new Mario64, i'll always hate it to death. Can't even hear the name now without cringing, and it's all because some people just won't bloody DROP IT for god's sake!!

LET IT GO!!


/rant

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Yeah I agree, it shouldn't be considered realtime - never did I say otherwise. But still, this is a discussion that's already been had here in the past.

And has been in vain, as you can see in many posts in this thread. Many posters here still cling to their false beliefs and hopes...

 

[dubert]

I don't even disagree with anything you've said, but when your initial sig is simply to aggravate the fan***s and your stated claim is to kick people out of their supposed PS3 trance, I mean that's just not a constructive way to start off discussion.

It was meant as a joke, poor in taste I admit... Sorry about that. I was feeling a bit frustrated at that time. I'm only human ( I hope )...

 

[BlueTsunami]

And has been in vain, as you can see in many posts in this thread. Many posters here still cling to their false beliefs and hopes...

The problem is, even after all this evidence...they still cling. Its a lost case and will only be finished when the actual game comes out (God please don't let it be 2-3 years away).

 

[mckmas8808]

What you mean "a console that gives me diminishing returns"??

Diminishing returns is an effect that will inevitably happen as time goes by. It's already clear that the difference beteen PS1 and PS2 was bigger than PS2 to PS3, and the difference between PS3 and PS4 will be even smaller. It's not because PS3 is crap, it's because of diminishing returns. If you don't like it, there's nothing you or we can do about it. After a certain point, it will take an exponentially larger amount of system resources to get the noticeable differences with each generation.

That's why focusing on the hardware is just useless, like i've been saying for bloody ages. The good stuff will be in the way the artists and animators make games. It will all depend on the art and the movement of the games, not technicalities.

But you people don't listen to me, keep arguing over MSAA and HDR and Blast Processing...

Well I always thought the videos like KZ and Motorstorm were great for a next-gen step up. Dubert says that he thinks that Motorstorm is possible to I guess all hope isn't lost. To me if you include physics then I think a jump between PS2 -> PS3 will be as big as PS1 -> PS2.

 

[Tesselator]

Yeah I agree, it shouldn't be considered realtime - never did I say otherwise. But still, this is a discussion that's already been had here in the past.

I don't have an issue with you Dubert, I just take issue with your motivation in starting this whole thing. I don't even disagree with anything you've said, but when your initial sig is simply to aggravate the fan***s and your stated claim is to kick people out of their supposed PS3 trance, I mean that's just not a constructive way to start off discussion.

Dubert you seem like someone who can contribute to this forum quite constructively, so don't take anything I've said the wrong way. I just hope that in the future you won't view fans of a certain console *on this forum* as zombies that need enlightening.

So in fact you DID miss basically the entire point of this thread.

Oh well. I suppose I need to apologise for my lack of command
at using the english language. I'm sorry for that.
​

 

[Carl B]

So in fact you DID miss basically the entire point of this thread.

Oh well. I suppose I need to apologise for my lack of command
at using the english language. I'm sorry for that.
​

Well you might as well start working on it now, because this post of yours didn't convey anything.

What *is* the point of this thread? If that point is to dis-illusion fanbois, then what I've said stands. Threads should be targeted at ideas, not at groups.

 

[mckmas8808]

It could be the new Ico, the new Mario64, i'll always hate it to death. Can't even hear the name now without cringing, and it's all because some people just won't bloody DROP IT for god's sake!!

LET IT GO!!


/rant

NEVER! I want KZ. Or at least a game that gives me the same wow factor.

The problem is, even after all this evidence...they still cling. Its a lost case and will only be finished when the actual game comes out

You are right. Deep down inside I'm still clinging to that same hope. You know why? Because it's real next-gen graphics and physics. If Motorstorm can be possible I don't see why KZ (or at least 95% of it) can't be. Sony's 1st and 2nd parties will have to prove to me through their lack of programming skill, software tools, and hardware capability that it isn't possible.

Even though I totally respect what Dubert has done for the board. I have the up most respect for him (or her )

 

[Laa-Yosh]

If Motorstorm can be possible I don't see why KZ (or at least 95% of it) can't be.

Dubert, see what you've done?

 

[dubert]

You are right. Deep down inside I'm still clinging to that same hope. You know why? Because it's real next-gen graphics and physics. If Motorstorm can be possible I don't see why KZ (or at least 95% of it) can't be. Sony's 1st and 2nd parties will have to prove to me through their lack of programming skill, software tools, and hardware capability that it isn't possible.

And you can cling to it. It could look almost as good to the untrained eye. But it will have significantly lower polycount, and no Monte Carlo global illumination or real Hypervoxels. Which the video sort of lets you believe. But it might almost look like that, within the realistic limitations of current hardware. What the people who released the demo should have done, was to admit that this is not running on hardware, that it was a concept, and it will look significantly downgraded in realtime, which they did not confirm directly, and that somewhat annoyed me, and several other people close to me. And the technology behind the trailer had virtually nothing to do with their hardware.

Even though I totally respect what Dubert has done for the board. I have the up most respect for him (or her )

Him

 

[Tesselator]

Well you might as well start working on it now, because this post of yours didn't convey anything.

What *is* the point of this thread? If that point is to dis-illusion fanbois, thenm what I've said stands, and isn't that the exact type of thread that caused this forum to be shut down before? Threads should be targeted at ideas, not at groups.

I have to spell this out? OK, in a nutshell:

People in the industry both hardware and software developers have
made great strides in the past ten years. It was about 10 years ago
when the very first 3D accelerators came out with ONLY bilinear
filtering and mipmapping. If you talk to any of these people doing
this they are under the impression and rightly so, that what has
occurred in the past ten year has been at a break-neck speed.
Truly high-paced evolutionary development.

However in the interest of sales a few companies (the names of
whom are really not important!) unscrupulously build unrealistic
expectations among "users". This unrealistic expectation level
causes disappointment, unrest, even some limited social chaos.
The developers and techs instead of receiving praise for being
the god-like beings they are get slaps, insults, and kicks from a
much wider section of the user population than they deserve.

It's not fair. I think it should stop. dubert thinks it should stop.
Several others here that DID get the point of this thread think
it should stop.

So we see a problem... What is the first thing you should do when
you see a problem? Well, identifying it AS a problem would probably
be a very good start. Don't you think? From there awareness
levels can be raised across the board and intelligent discussion
can begin to occur. That by itself might be enough - or other
consumer actions of individual conscience may evolve. Whatever
the result it needs a beginning. That beginning is what this thread
is about contributing to.

​

 

[3DGE]

And has been in vain, as you can see in many posts in this thread. Many posters here still cling to their false beliefs and hopes...

Until the game is out I can't see how their beliefs or hopes ar false and yours are not. Until the game is shown, their beliefs on the definitive visual appeal of the game are as legitimate as yours. Tha E3 footage is undoubtly a movie, but as far as as the final look of the game is concerned, I will humbly trust people programming on actual hardware and REAL professionals like DeanoC and Nao, instead of self proclaimed experts calling fans of their hated gaming platforms ******s and the like.

 

[Carl B]

However in the interest of sales a few companies (the names of
whom are really not important!) unscrupulously build unrealistic
expectations among "users". This unrealistic expectation level
causes disappointment, unrest, even some limited social chaos.
The developers and techs instead of receiving praise for being
the god-like beings they are get slaps, insults, and kicks from a
much wider section of the user population than they deserve.

This paragraph just shows how far this topic has strayed from the core of the issue, which is the technology.

The god-like beings they are? 'Unscrupulously' build unrealistic expenctations? 'Limited social chaos'?

I think you read into - or care - too much about this stuff. No one's rioting over some stupid trailer.

Perhaps you feel it's a holy cause to bring people out of their graphics stuppor, but let me tell you that coming from a marketing background, you are way out there if you think that there is going to be some sort of 'revolution' heralding in an era without glossy trailers and hype. It's simply good business. Sony, MS, whoever - they build hype. You are being marketed to; we all are. Caveat emptor.

I want to quote Laa-Yosh here:

And has been in vain, as you can see in many posts in this thread. Many posters here still cling to their false beliefs and hopes...

I think this paints an accurate picture in that it frames the whole thing almost in terms of religion. There are people who simply take on faith what will be achievable or not, and they believe the marketers as if they were priests of their console religion. I agree that 'faith' in consoles is misplaced, in fact I'm not one for putting faith in much of anything. But at the same time all I am saying is that attacking someone's faith - which is how this thread started - is not often a good way to start off to get results in terms of discussion, because indeed we see people here reacting as if it were their religion being attacked.

It doesn't matter now - the whole thing's cooled down.

But seriously Tesselator, I think you have to keep this whole thing in perspective. Sony DOES have an agenda - and it's the same as MS'. To get you to buy their console. Sony is no shadier than any other company; on the contrary SCE marketing is on the whole simply better than the other companies.

People want to talk about polygon counts, let's talk about hype and revenue generated per PR/marketing dollar spent. Sony's got to be kicking some ass there.

It's up to *us* to determine the details as to what these consoles can achieve, not for some company to 'come clean' and spoon-feed us a corporate line that we go off parroting.

Which is why I'll never blame MS or Sony or any other company for their 'lies'; becuase I don't buy into anything but a final product anyway.

(and neither should anyone)

 

[3DGE]

I have to spell this out? OK, in a nutshell:

People in the industry both hardware and software developers have
made great strides in the past ten years. It was about 10 years ago
when the very first 3D accelerators came out with ONLY bilinear
filtering and mipmapping. If you talk to any of these people doing
this they are under the impression and rightly so, that what has
occurred in the past ten year has been at a break-neck speed.
Truly high-paced evolutionary development.

However in the interest of sales a few companies (the names of
whom are really not important!) unscrupulously build unrealistic
expectations among "users". This unrealistic expectation level
causes disappointment, unrest, even some limited social chaos.
The developers and techs instead of receiving praise for being
the god-like beings they are get slaps, insults, and kicks from a
much wider section of the user population than they deserve.

It's not fair. I think it should stop. dubert thinks it should stop.
Several others here that DID get the point of this thread think
it should stop.

So we see a problem... What is the first thing you should do when
you see a problem? Well, identifying it AS a problem would probably
be a very good start. Don't you think? From there awareness
levels can be raised across the board and intelligent discussion
can begin to occur. That by itself might be enough - or other
consumer actions of individual conscience may evolve. Whatever
the result it needs a beginning. That beginning is what this thread
is about contributing to.

​

I don't understand how the Killzone E3 demo being a movie *proves* that the game won't *look* or *feel* the same or better. This is what will matter to users and, as of now, you and your friends have absolutely NO proof demonstrating that the final game will be so much different from E3, even more so since you are not coding on final PS3 hardware. To me, your attitude to divulge ASSUMPTIONS as FACTS for the good of the world are just as arrogant and misleading as the alleged lies Sony are spreading.

 

["Nerve-Damage"]

Great Post

Until the game is out I can't see how their beliefs or hopes ar false and yours are not. Until the game is shown, their beliefs on the definitive visual appeal of the game are as legitimate as yours. Tha E3 footage is undoubtly a movie, but as far as as the final look of the game is concerned, I will humbly trust people programming on actual hardware and REAL professionals like DeanoC and Nao, instead of self proclaimed experts calling fans of their hated gaming platforms ******s and the like.

100% Agree!!

 

[dubert]

I don't understand how the Killzone E3 demo being a movie *proves* that the game won't *look* or *feel* the same or better.

There are several things... I'll give you one ( I've stated many of them before on this thread ), Monte Carlo global illumination...

This is what will matter to users and, as of now, you and your friends have absolutely NO proof demonstrating that the final game will be so much different from E3, even more so since you are not coding on final PS3 hardware. To me, your attitude to divulge ASSUMPTIONS as FACTS for the good of the world are just as arrogant and misleading as the alleged lies Sony are spreading.

Ok, look here. The thing is, that you simply cannot do the same quality, and level of detail, in realtime, that you can do with a raytracer. It is simply in fact impossible, to replicate a raytracer with all it's features, realtime, in a single hardware solution. This is not an assumption, it is in fact the truth of the matter.

Sure, if Sony's engineers came from the distant future and introduced a new material replacing silicon, and the Cell really was 970920 times faster than a new X2, then yeah...

EDIT: By "a new X2" I'm not referring to XBOX 360, but the AMD dual core X2 cpu...

 

[Laa-Yosh]

but as far as as the final look of the game is concerned, I will humbly trust people programming on actual hardware and REAL professionals like DeanoC and Nao, instead of self proclaimed experts calling fans of their hated gaming platforms ******s and the like.

I've always known that I'm an amateur; but note that no PS3/X360 developers visiting this forum have made any comment about that KZ video...

 

[mckmas8808]

And you can cling to it. It could look almost as good to the untrained eye. But it will have significantly lower polycount, and no Monte Carlo global illumination or real Hypervoxels. Which the video sort of lets you believe. But it might almost look like that, within the realistic limitations of current hardware.

The bolded underlined part is exactly what I feel will happen. Almost as in "If you don't play the same 5 second clip of the flying ship getting blown up 10 times straight in a loop it will look basically the same and give you that same wow factor" is all I need.

Xbd is talking about certain people like me viewing marketers words as religon is false. It's the devs own words that give me this clinging on to it feeling. Dubert you just said to the untrained eye it could look almost as good. What else do I need? That means to me Guerrilla could pull it off. Maybe not technically, but to the "untrained" eye they would.

 

[mckmas8808]

I've always known that I'm an amateur; but note that no PS3/X360 developers visiting this forum have made any comment about that KZ video...

Why would any of them want to get jump in between this talk. And actually nA0 did state something in the ATI thread. But as soon as they say something 30 minutes later it will be on 100 forums with people twisting their words.

And how would they know what KZ really looks like behind closed doors. If I were them I wouldn't say anything either.

 

[3DGE]

There are several things... I'll give you one ( I've stated many of them before on this thread ), Monte Carlo global illumination...



Ok, look here. The thing is, that you simply cannot do the same quality, and level of detail, in realtime, that you can do with a raytracer. It is simply in fact impossible, to replicate a raytracer with all it's features, realtime, in a single hardware solution. This is not an assumption, it is in fact the truth of the matter.

Sure, if Sony's engineers came from the distant future and introduced a new material replacing silicon, and the Cell really was 970920 times faster than a new X2, then yeah...

You still don't understand or pretend not to. Who is saying that the actual game has to push an engine capable to render the same technicalities? YOU are the one insisting on this matter. I said, who cares if the final game will *look* or *feel* like that? Sony fans hope they can get that kind of visual appeal with tricks or not. No one except you are pretending that exact computanional work with all necessary rendering techniques. I might add that even if Killzone looks significantly better than what shown on Xbox360 will be enough to satisfy PS3 followers.

Again, You have absolutely no proof showing that Killzone won't look or feel like that, and the numbers you are throwing around are meaningless, since you, and you only, are pretend that PS3 will have to render that video sequence like a CG.