Johnny Depp is a moron (if you didn't already know that)

[Zeross]

Why start with email and not "bits" "bytes" etc..

Just a precision in French we don't say byte we say octet
I think that protecting our language is a good idea, but sometimes I'm just grieved when I see what they find in exchange. I mean "mél" is just ridiculous plain and simple it's the phonetic translation of mail but it has no sense. Courriel on the other hand is not too bad at least it means something (courrier électronique) but to be honest I don't know someone using it in France.

 

[Fred]

If America left, it would probably mimic Vietnam when the same thing happened. Ie a massacre the likes of which made the initial war seem pale in comparison, the death of democracy, civil war and even more chaos than what we have now.

People keep talking about UN troops. I fail to see how they will resolve anything, it will just be bloodshed with a different name attached.

The Iraqis have to sort out their own mess ultimately. Ditto with Afghanistan. UN, and the US can only pave the way to civil society. The ultimate approval and regulation of law is up to the people.

 

[Humus]

I think it actually would matter replacing US troops with UN troops. The reason is that much of the Iraqi people see the US as just an invader who's there just for the oil etc. If the responsibility of the rebuilding process is put on the UN, then I think the Iraqis would feel better about the situation and see the situation for what it is.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I think it actually would matter replacing US troops with UN troops. The reason is that much of the Iraqi people see the US as just an invader who's there just for the oil etc.

Are you serious? What do you think the "iraqi people" think about the U.N. and it's "oil for food" program?

 

[Humus]

Definitely more positive than they think of the US at the moment.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Definitely more positive than they think of the US at the moment.

Really...and where do you get this information from?

 

[Sariden]

Pretty much destroying the country? As long as the Americans are there, militia groups will sabotage rebuilding efforts, thus keeping the nation down in the dumps.

Well.. The country wasn't all that great to begin with.. Also there really isn't that much that we've destroyed.. a few blown up buildings and some of the palaces have damage.. but on the whole it was pretty "down in the dumps" to begin with. Unless of course you were a friend of Saddam.

Definitely more positive than they think of the US at the moment.

I havn't seen much anti US sentiment at all.. Most of the people just seem kinda beaten down. The vast majority I've met have no real problems with us though and are quite excited to be out form under Saddams boot... If you REALLY want something gratifying, talk to a Kurd.. They love us to death.

 

[Humus]

It's one thing talking to the average guy on the street, which probably more often than not were happy to get rid of Saddam, but if you're talking about the violent ones, then their only goal is to get the US out of the country. The number one goal at the moment should be to stop the violence, and lowering the US presence and increasing the UN presence should have a positive effect.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

It's one thing talking to the average guy on the street,

Isn't that who we're talking about?

which probably more often than not were happy to get rid of Saddam, but if you're talking about the violent ones, then their only goal is to get the US out of the country.

You mean the violent ones imported from out of state?

Or the violent ones who's goal is to rule Iraq themselves...and not have the U.S. or anyone else, including the U.N., interfere?

Wasn't there a bombing of a U.N. building in recent days?

The number one goal at the moment should be to stop the violence, and lowering the US presence and increasing the UN presence should have a positive effect.

The number one goal is to control the violence, agreed. Unfortunately, this will take time. PATIENCE is in order. Switching U.S. for U.N. troops would have no effect...except for a lessened effectiveness of the troops to deal with the violence themselves.

In today's "instant information age" too many people today unreasonably expect "immediate" results and solutions.

 

[Humus]

You can't just hide under a "will take time" statement. Problem is that the trend is not that the violence is getting controlled, rather the opposite. The violence is increasing every day.

I certainly believe that UN troops are actually more fit for the task to keep things in control than US troops. It's a completely different thing training soldiers for combat and training them for peace-keeping operations. The confusion right after the war ended was quite telling, these have been trained for combat and did that jiob just fine, but once they were to try to get order there was no coordination whatsoever and there was nothing they could do about the looting that happened right before their eyes.

I'm not saying the US can't continue to lead the operation. But there must be more of UN presence. Not only for the situation as such, but also to heal the torn international relations.

 

[emacs]

i agree with Depp's assessment that renaming 'french fries' to 'freedom fries' was moronic, immature and ineffectual. ;-)

 

[Sticky]

Yea, everyone thinks bush shouldnt have gone into Iraq. But why? Even if there now WMD's found, people will still have been freed from a sadistic rulers and his sadistic sons. What's the downside? Other than the casualties suffered?

Our credibility the next time we say there are WMD in a nation that we need to get rid of? The fact that in the time we spent on Iraq, North Korea completed their attempt to build nuclear bombs?

If the war was started as a war of liberation, then that's a slippery slope that many countries around the world can use to say "Hey! Over here! Liberate us!"

No, the war was started and sold as a war to root out terrorism (no links found) and WMD (none found). The by-product is Iraqi liberation, but that was not the casus belli pushing us over the cliff into the current quagmire. It's selfish, but americans generally don't give a damn about other countries suffering unless it directly affects us. The administration knew this, and sold it to americans on the premise that there would be mushroom clouds in every city.

That was certainly misleading at best and and outright lie at worst.

There were at least two terrorist camps found in Iraq during the war as reported on the news.

Saddam himself killed thousands of his own ppl through various methods.

WMD.... Its abig country... I dont know if we will find them.. but do you really expect to find them easily?... cmon now... not like they are going to give us a map... Heck there were jets burried in the desert that we found... its been two months since hostile activities stopped... Give it time

I see absolutely wrong with protecting interests. I certainly protect my own. If we had no oil... say bye to your electricity, your car. Until renewable energy sources are developed. In the process not only did we liberate a country from a horrible man.

If we are not allowed to drill for oil on our own land.... where do we get it.. middle east of course... kind of a catch 22.. people complain if we drill or get oil from the middle east. mmmmm

Did you know that if you spill more then 1 liter of oil in the Alaska slope right now it is a reportable incident. Perhaps you should tour a rig site in Alaska before anyone jumps to conclusions. I have worked on drilling rigs in two enviromentally sensitive areas. The initial drilling set up takes about 12000 sq feet for the drilling rig. and an additional .5 acre for the buildings maybe a full acre. 2 months after we were done each well there the area was completley reclaimed accept for a 20 by 40 feet section of fenced of area... They drill during the winter up there so the buildings are laid on the ground on the ice. When in thaws and the drilling is done all that is left is the well head and the pipe line to the main oil gathering area. There is no appreciable impact to the surroundinjg wild life. If there is a spill (keep in mind an oil spill is very rare on a drilling rig very rare) A spill would only occur if the well blew out which is very rare now a days. A spill from a drilling rig would be a clay based drilling mud.So if it occurs it can be cleaned up with out soaking into the ground.

everything is done to strict enviromental rules.. Much stricter then say a factory you drive by down down wherever you live.
People lose there jobs over spilling of 1 liter of oil.. Thats how strict people are....

Anyone of us has caused more enviromental damge then drilling one well. My parents farm around 8 oil wells on their property natural grasses grow right up to the well with absolutely no harm.

BTW I am a canadian living in the US.

 

[RussSchultz]

You can't just hide under a "will take time" statement. Problem is that the trend is not that the violence is getting controlled, rather the opposite. The violence is increasing every day.

I certainly believe that UN troops are actually more fit for the task to keep things in control than US troops. It's a completely different thing training soldiers for combat and training them for peace-keeping operations. The confusion right after the war ended was quite telling, these have been trained for combat and did that jiob just fine, but once they were to try to get order there was no coordination whatsoever and there was nothing they could do about the looting that happened right before their eyes.

I'm not saying the US can't continue to lead the operation. But there must be more of UN presence. Not only for the situation as such, but also to heal the torn international relations.

Did you know that the 101st in Kurdish territory hasn't had a single death? That the marines in middle Iraq haven't had a death since April 12th?

Only the army in/around Baghdad and inside the "Sunni triangle" are having trouble.

Did you know that a black man in Washington DC or Detroit has a statistically higher chance of dying from violence than one of our soldiers in Iraq?

Or is it just easier to parrot the "brutish american soldiers don't know how to act and are getting killed because of it"?

 

[Natoma]

There were at least two terrorist camps found in Iraq during the war as reported on the news.

In the areas of Iraq that Saddam didn't control. If we find terrorist camps run by crazy militias in our nation, are we by default in cahoots with them?

Saddam himself killed thousands of his own ppl through various methods.

Definitely. But this wasn't the reason that americans were fearful and supporting the war. Mushroom clouds in every city and 9/11's with chem-bio weapons were the reason.

WMD.... Its abig country... I dont know if we will find them.. but do you really expect to find them easily?... cmon now... not like they are going to give us a map... Heck there were jets burried in the desert that we found... its been two months since hostile activities stopped... Give it time

Donald Rumsfeld stating multiple times that we knew where the WMD were. Colin Powell stated that there were hundreds of tons of chem-bio agent. Cheney and Bush stated at different times that Iraq was a year away from having nuclear weapons.

I brought out all of those quotes in another thread on this board. If you want I can dig them up again, with dates when they were stated.

I see absolutely wrong with protecting interests. I certainly protect my own. If we had no oil... say bye to your electricity, your car. Until renewable energy sources are developed. In the process not only did we liberate a country from a horrible man.

Understand that I have no issue with liberating Iraq. I'm not arguing against that. I have no issue with protecting our interests in the region wrt oil. But give us the true reasons for committing our troops and costing the lives of hundreds of american and british troops. Not the WMD hocus pocus (thus far).

If we are not allowed to drill for oil on our own land.... where do we get it.. middle east of course... kind of a catch 22.. people complain if we drill or get oil from the middle east. mmmmm

And yet when it was suggested that the CAFE standards for fuel economy be raised this year, our congress shot it down with the blessing of the white house.

Raising the avg fuel efficiency of our fleet of cars and trucks would save millions of bbl of oil per day. There are many things that we could do in terms of conservationary technologies and renewable energy resources that would reduce our dependence on foreign oil, rather than rely on increased production.

There is no appreciable impact to the surroundinjg wild life. If there is a spill (keep in mind an oil spill is very rare on a drilling rig very rare) A spill would only occur if the well blew out which is very rare now a days. A spill from a drilling rig would be a clay based drilling mud.So if it occurs it can be cleaned up with out soaking into the ground.

The impact to wildlife isn't necessarily relegated to oil spills, but the disruption of migratory patterns and animal habitat as well.

 

[pax]

Its too early to say the Iraq situation is a quagmire. We'll need ot giv eit 6 months ot a year at least. I dont think UN will be better or worse. But added helkp can only be good. Recycling the Iraqi army should be a priority. Just make sure they get a paycheck...

This will take a long time and I dont understand why Bush is already humbling himself. I dont se why the US cant do iraq by itself other than wanting to save a few billion $ ... Its certainly costing him points in his constituency to see him going back to the old reluctant allies for anykind of help... Heck the US was in Vietnam pretty much by itself for 10 years... Cant it wait at least 1-2 years before asking any help?

 

[Humus]

Did you know that the 101st in Kurdish territory hasn't had a single death? That the marines in middle Iraq haven't had a death since April 12th?

Only the army in/around Baghdad and inside the "Sunni triangle" are having trouble.

Did you know that a black man in Washington DC or Detroit has a statistically higher chance of dying from violence than one of our soldiers in Iraq?

Or is it just easier to parrot the "brutish american soldiers don't know how to act and are getting killed because of it"?

Sigh. I'm not parrotting anything, I'm not saying the US does a bad job and I certainly did not say what you're implying. Why do people take everything to be some sort of criticism?

 

[Sticky]

Humus... its certainly hard to tell people's tone online. . I know for myself I dont get upset I just lay out the facts. And try not to distort them.
BTW humus I will agree on your assessment that more Un troops are needed..

I just realized in my response to Natoma I was really one sided even though i agree with many view points.

Natamo...

I work in the oil industry so I will try and get some links from my side of things from drilling on the alaska slope.

I can't argue on migratory issues..... but I will argue habitat disruption...
As I had mentioned earlier by the time a well is put on production it is a 20 by 40 foot section averaging every 5 acres s. Maybe 10 in eviromentally areas. One thing I was going to mention.... That since the drilling rigs have moved to the Alaska slope... Thepoaching has decreased significantly because people are stilla round. I have talked with two people within the industry who have said they have seena a rise of animal populations on the Alaksa Slope

I do agree with you on raising fuel efficiency.. For my pockt book and yours. They should be doing a lot more. I would have to read any legilsation before it came across. But increasing fuel eff. has to be better then California's whacky idea of increasing tax on SUV's and truck's. I would in line i the had solor cells for house that are reasonable price.

Changin topics to Iraq

I do beleive many liberals are not patient enough with a war, just because we can get through a country in two months does not mean the war will end in two months. Perhaps we all should talk with our grand fathers who were around after world war 2 and ask them how long it took to clean up germany and Japan. The age of instant gratification is correct....


Will there be WMD? I dont know.. Most people are concerned that the president may have lied.. But I dont know of any reasonable person who expected to ever find WMD after giving saddam 6 months of warning.... Just my opinion. Like I said earlier he managed to bury 20 jets.... Only another billion cubic yard of sand to go through

edited.... looks like I made a gender mistake

 

[CosmoKramer]

I just realized in my response to Natoma I was really one sided even though i agree with many of her view points.

Hehe...

 

[Fred]

Well, what is for sure was there was evidence before the war that there were WMD. Cheney, Bush and Blair just parroted what they were told by their intelligence services, perhaps with the wrong tone or emphasis, but I don't think anyone (including most reasonable democrats) think they were outright lying. People mostly talk about cherry picking the data, and things like that.

Regardless, Blair, after lengthy hearings and evidence laying has been more or less exonerated in England. They had sources for most everything they layed out.

To be frank, while I think we should give them at least a year or so to find more intelligence and look for WMD, I am a little disturbed by the quality of information we received. At least to a naive, no nothing, handwaving outsider.

 

[Legion]

perhaps sticky has a bit to learn about natoma's sex? Natoma is a nasty fag and i am a whorish bisexual. Remember this for future reference.