But then what we see there is more of an effort to make HD console titles more palatable to a Western audience than an effort to develop their own originality - at least that's how I'm experiencing it.
Japanese developers art and tech choices *transmogrified thread
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But then what we see there is more of an effort to make HD console titles more palatable to a Western audience than an effort to develop their own originality - at least that's how I'm experiencing it.
Metal Gear, has always been Metal Gear, it's the same for Resident Evil. From conception up, these titles are already "original" than what their peers are making, likely, much more challenging as well.
Sigfried1977
Legend
When I look at my current gen games collection I see plenty of Western games in there that struggle just as much with the technology. Sure, most of the big budget stuff looks nice (but there are stinkers as well: Dragon Age I + II are technically underwhelming and artistically bland. Same with the Fallout games), but so do just about all the Japanese big budget titles from the likes of Square, Capcom and Namco.
Then I look at some of the (probably) medium budget Western games like Wet, Splatterhouse, Riddick, Brütal Legend, Silent Hill Homecoming or Darksiders, and you know what? Technically nothing to write home about here either (I do love the look of Brütal Legend regardless) On the Japanese side of things you have some crappy looking low budget games like Nier, but you also have stuff like Vanquish, or Bayonetta, or the Naruto games, all of which look absolutely stunning.
You also shouldn't forget that Japan isn't nearly as big as the Western development community.
Then I look at some of the (probably) medium budget Western games like Wet, Splatterhouse, Riddick, Brütal Legend, Silent Hill Homecoming or Darksiders, and you know what? Technically nothing to write home about here either (I do love the look of Brütal Legend regardless) On the Japanese side of things you have some crappy looking low budget games like Nier, but you also have stuff like Vanquish, or Bayonetta, or the Naruto games, all of which look absolutely stunning.
You also shouldn't forget that Japan isn't nearly as big as the Western development community.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Eh? There was nothing racist about my comments. I deliberately avoided specifying any race to avoid any perceived racial bias. But it is what it is. You are going to be much better at noticing subtle differences with things you are very familiar with than things that you are not.
There is at least as much variety, even among JRPGs as there is among Western RPGs. Dragon Quest - Blue Dragon - Final Fantasy (which art direction changes quite dramatically at times from game to game, compare FF 7 to FF 8 to FF 9, for example) - The Last Remnant - Demon Souls - Lost Odyssey - Kingdom under Fire - etc.
ME is much closer in looks to Oblivion than Blue Dragon is to Demon Souls using your own examples of differing Western RPG looks. As well from your original post that I replied to...
I'd challenge anyone to find Cloud even remotely appropriate in something like Kingdom Under Fire: Circle of Doom for anything other than the very superficial large weapons. Character art direction is a complete 180 of each other (cartoonish and exaggerated versus relatively realistic). And if you continue to claim that they are quite similar you are quite biased by your own preconceptions of what you are familiar with as the character art is FAR more similar between ME and Oblivion than between FF 7 or FF 13 and any of the other JRPGs that I've mentioned here. And as mentioned the dramatic changes in art direction from FF 7 -> 8 -> 9 is far larger than any differences between ME and Oblivion with regards to character modeling and texturing.
The same goes for world detail and art direction. Or perhaps FF 13 just confuses you as it mixes fantasy with science fiction rather than being purely one or the other as in ME (sci-fi) and Oblivion (fantasy). Because you certainly could transpose characters and environments at will between most of the Fantasy themed Western RPGs with little to no problem. Oblivion characters certainly wouldn't look much out of place in the Witcher or Gothic 3 or Two Worlds or most other modern fantasy themed RPGs as an example. And the same with Sci-Fi themed western RPGs.
Regards,
SB
Another tangent? It must be nice to beat on a Strawman? Everything you just said has zero to with my points.
Since the worlds, in a broader sense, in Japanese anime often lack diversity from one another because genre specification tend to not exist and real-to-life simulation of those worlds oft not existing, you can put their characters in those worlds interchangeably. In contrast, it's impossible to do that with genre specific worlds created in Mass Effect and Oblivion. Thus, character art is almost meaningless to a Western RPG provided it's genre specific, a simple John Doe, create your character, is fine.
Yes, I believe Cloud would fit just fine as character art in FF13, that's not bias, just simple common sense. Though, I doubt Commander Shepard could make the cut in medieval sorcery - again, common sense. I can't make it any more plain sounding than that. You are trying to extract some extra meaning out of my position to validate your extremely weak argument. Your Strawman is good comedy though.
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Thats because commander Shepard a wears spaces suit and space garments that arent fitting to a medieval setting. Put him in plain tees and pants and he would fit perfectly
Same goes for KOS-MOS and other japanese characters from Xenogears. They arent interchangeable
Even if you put him in normal looking clothes, Shepard still wouldn't exist in a vacuum. He's not some token that exists to make the world function. He's not meant to exist separate from the world; his role. He's a "space marine" meant to exist as that instrument to the world before him. This is why you can't simply rip Shepard as he exists within Mass Effect and put him in Oblivion because the role of "space marine" doesn't work in sword and sorcery; however, you can do just that with Cloud and put him in FF13. Cloud exists as a vacuum and his characterization reinforces that you get his character art and his "coolness" takes more precedence over the nonsensical world that shows off his coolness before him.
So what you're saying is Japanese art focusses on characters to exclusion, as discrete entities irrespective of their environments, whereas Western game art treats the charcters and environments in equal measure making sure they fit together?
...in a sense, yes.
So are you saying Snake will fit right in with Dynasty Warriors Series?
Edit: I might be confused as to what you trying to say with regard to character. Are you saying personality and characters or as a protagonist?
Thought about it for a little while. As you play ME, you develop Shepard, not the developer. Games like FF, the protagonist's character/personality is written in the story, whereas in ME, the story might be give you some different endings and you have some leeway on how the character reacted or behaves. However, with all that said and done, ME is not your traditional RPG, as it's giving the player a lot more flexibility than before, so it might not be a good example.
Edit: I might be confused as to what you trying to say with regard to character. Are you saying personality and characters or as a protagonist?
Thought about it for a little while. As you play ME, you develop Shepard, not the developer. Games like FF, the protagonist's character/personality is written in the story, whereas in ME, the story might be give you some different endings and you have some leeway on how the character reacted or behaves. However, with all that said and done, ME is not your traditional RPG, as it's giving the player a lot more flexibility than before, so it might not be a good example.
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I couldnt disagree more!! You have a very superficial perception of anything "anime" related hence you cant appreciate whats really there. The characters in FF7 managed to capture the hearts of many gamers. They are meorable. Special. Unique to FF7. And its not just the characters. Its the whole art direction that made such a huge impression including the environments. Your typical and commercial anime may be a show off of coolness that tries to find excuses to show cool poses, some superficial story background of characters and some cool fights just for the hell of it. FF7 isnt one of those examples.
Sepherd on the other hand? It doesnt matter if its the same looking character of if you choose to customize him into an asian woman called.......Sepherd. Someone may also claim that typical to western gamers Shepher is another generic western example of the ultimate western bad ass hero who has saved the world. That sounds quite similar to anime. Actually if you take Mass Effect change its name and replace the characters with some japanese art you would have said the same thing you say about Anime looking games. Do you have the same opinion about the Matrix?
Silent_Buddha
Legend
Gotcha. So you are basically saying...
Western Character developement and art direction is generic.
Japanese world developement and art direction is generic.
There could be something to that but I think that's still far too broad. And it's completely masked by you using a game that specifically merges Sci-Fi and Fantasy for certain games in its series.
So you're taking a character design from a game that is a blurring of Sci-Fi and Fantasy and using it as a token representative of ALL JRPG character design. But you don't do the same with regards to the Western RPGs, where you instead use a specifically Fantasy OR Sci-Fi game.
In other words, obviously a character designed for a Sci-Fi AND Fantasy game would fit into either a Sci-Fi or Fantasy game.
While on the other hand a character designed specifically for a Fantasy game may not fit into a Sci-Fi game, or vice versa.
Try to switch characters between Xeno-Gears (Sci-Fi like ME) and Blue Dragon (Fantasy like Oblivion) and suddenly your argument falls apart. Your argument only works because you chose a Sci-Fi/Fantasy mix of a game as the focus of your generic Japanese environments point.
I suppose another way to put this is that the Japanese are far less restricted to the division between fantasy and science fiction and far more willing to blend the two together in their storytelling and gaming. While the west seems quite a bit more adverse to mixing the two except in rare steam punk type games (Arcanum for example).
Regards,
SB
That may be true to an extent, in the same way Japanese culture emphasises the eyes, so their smilies are a completely different language to Western smilies. I don't know enough Japanese games to say, but I think Silent_Buddha has a point that Japan commonly merges sci-fi and fantasy, so they'll have less division. Space ships alongside magic, and mechanical constructs alongside organic ones, are commonplace, which means the designs are locked to a specific style. Whereas, in contrast, a Western game will be either medieval, or sci-fi, or contemporary, and the division crosses over into characters. You won't get a Western protagonist running around space in his pyjamas!
Overall though, I don't see their character design as limited by any stretch. They mix things up more which means games tend to have a sense of 'samey' just because you can expect to see the same stereotypes in every game, whereas in the West the same stereotypes only appear in games of that genre. Within those stereotypes, Japanese developers and artists have to span the range of style of Western developers though, from cartoon to realstic to surrealistic.
You cite examples that only help fuel my point.
Your comparisons err: Xenogears characters can't fit in Mass Effect. As you are further proving my point: Xenogears isn't even a space opera, it's again, science-fantasy, though, lacking in the science parts. Whereas Mass Effect is heavy on the Science. FF13 is another example of this, so is Star Ocean and any other JRPG anime that bills itself as "science". Where's the science bit? Science doesn't exist as means to developing the world, the character of the world itself in these games, they exist outside in some singularity to build obtuse constructs ( like Mecha ), which logically don't fit. It's again, another excuse to make the world "look" cool than to be one of function and purpose.
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
Uh... By that definition ME is also the same science fantasy. There's very little science in it with a lot of sciency terms given to magical fantasy effects or anything else that the developer's imagination thought would be cool in a futuristic setting. Biotic powers is just another way of saying Magic User/Wizard/whatever.
Regards,
SB
No, that's Star Wars and the "force", "biotic" powers actually have scientific application and is explained quite thoroughly if you bothered to open the codex.
I read all the codecs. Element zero is teh magics.
There might have been more thought gone into it Mass Effect - Star Wars is pretty damn stupid and inconsistent - but Mass effect is still just a lovely blend of science and fantasy. And sex.
Man, I can't wait to rub it into alien-hating Ashley's face that me and Tali got it going on now.
There might have been more thought gone into it Mass Effect - Star Wars is pretty damn stupid and inconsistent - but Mass effect is still just a lovely blend of science and fantasy. And sex.
Man, I can't wait to rub it into alien-hating Ashley's face that me and Tali got it going on now.
Element zero has an atomic number and chemical symbol, yes, it based on actual science not magic. They do quite effective job in communicating its scientific application without blowing your mind with details but there's NO scientific explanation on how they make Gundams for instance. There's also no science in FF13 or Star Ocean for that matter, it just back-ground noise that serves no function.
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If you actually bothered to read the Encyclopedia's in Star Ocean there is quite a lot of science going on in it. Hell even the game itself tries to give a scientific explanation behind magic. It's mostly star trek style hokus pokus psuedo-science that has a weak basis in reality but to say there is none is a gross error.
Enlighten me: what science is there in Star Ocean? Star Ocean doesn't even have science sounding terms much less actual application thereto it.
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