Japanese developers art and tech choices *transmogrified thread

[asasega]

Mod: This thread moved from the Tech forum as there's zip technological discussion.

why 90 % of japanese games dont use shaders for surface details
they using old style graphics, polygons with textures and thats it
it is for performance reasons(i doubt that) or out of lazyness or they are too used to the ps2 era graphic pipeline

 

[Gitaroo]

Think kojima once said they don't have alot of ppl study on advance graphics in Japan and s lot of devs are moving from PS2. So they are kind of behind in terms of technology.

 

[Sigfried1977]

Well, the characters in MGS4 or pretty much any Capcom game have plenty of detail and are a heck of a lot more pleasing to the eye than the overly shiny plastic figurines Western devs seem to love so much. I'd also say that the rather clean look of MGS4's environments has much more to do with art direction than with technology.
At least the big budget efforts from Japan compare quite nicely to their Western competition. The smaller scale games generally go into entirely different graphical directions anyway.

 

[London Geezer]

Well, the characters in MGS4 or pretty much any Capcom game have plenty of detail and are a heck of a lot more pleasing to the eye than the overly shiny plastic figurines Western devs seem to love so much. I'd also say that the rather clean look of MGS4's environments has much more to do with art direction than with technology.
At least the big budget efforts from Japan compare quite nicely to their Western competition. The smaller scale games generally go into entirely different graphical directions anyway.

Too many generalizations. Not all Western characters are 'shiny plastic figurines'. And not all Japanes characters have 'plenty of details and more pleasing to the eye'.

 

[Sigfried1977]

I know it was a generalization (same as "why 90 % of japanese games dont use shaders for surface details"). I also didn't say all Japanese characters. I just said MGS4 and Capcom.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

I think it's because Japanese games rely more on artistic talents than tech. Look at some of the most advance western games, they have little to no artistic creativity. Dark metallic space stations corridor with shaders everywhere as oppose to a warpped spiraling corridor in a forest temple.

This is why a game like Okami can still look so beautiful while games like Doom 3, Oblivion, or Mass Effect now looks really dated. The art doesn't stand out, and once the tech is viewed as yesterday's news, it'll look like crap compared to the next shader heavy game. I'm willing to bet Team Fortress 2 will withstand the test of time compared to Heavy Rain come next generation thanks to the great art by Valve. Hell, I think the characters are quite ugly in Heavy Rain today.

Thank god for indie game developers, though.

 

[Mobius1aic]

The larger Japanese developers are quite good I'd say, especially with what they did on the PS2 and GC. As for art, that's a different matter, as art could just be the pure artistry of creating a realistic environment or creating a style that can stand up to scrutiny and offer a unique visual perspective for the player. This generation of games of course has been dominated by Western made games that emphasize graphical realism though and as for the past generation, you had systems that could do surface shaders, at a pretty heavy cost on the system. The PS3 and 360 are much more attuned for such techniques. If you want to see Japanese shader galore, just view the latest Star Ocean, it seems way overdone in that department. Pretty much all the higher profile Japanese-developed 360 and PS3 titles employ surface shaders of some sort somewhere. Time Crisis 4 on the PS3 is the only one I can think of that might not.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think it's because Japanese games rely more on artistic talents than tech.

I think your argument holds no water. Firstly you're talking art style over quality. The generic western style may not please you, but to other gamers the Japanese style is as equally generic and derivative, only in a different direction. Secondly art doesn't require an absence of tech. Better tech allows for better artistic efforts. Okami is using smart tech to enable an artistic look, which wouldn't be possible with just straight textured polygons. Improved shader skillzorz would enable better application of their artistic skills. eg. Uncharted 2 only looks as good as it does with its hand-painted textures because of the shaders that aply them.

Whatever Japan's artistic potential, learning to better utilise the hardware (assuming the OP's posit that Japan's developers aren't utilising shader tech is valid) would lead to better application of and results from their art.

 

[DeadlyNinja]

I think your argument holds no water. Firstly you're talking art style over quality. The generic western style may not please you, but to other gamers the Japanese style is as equally generic and derivative, only in a different direction.

That's really vague. You can actually nail down the artistic problem with Western games. Too much metal, grey, brown, and bald space marines/30 something man. The general Japanese games are defined by "animu" but that really only applies to certain RPGs from Squareenix. Take a look at Opoona, 3D Dot Heroes, and Street Fighter IV. One game pushes very little shaders but has a very distinct look. 3D Dot Heroes blends modern tech with old pixel art with a twist. SFIV is a cel-shaded fighter.

Secondly art doesn't require an absence of tech. Better tech allows for better artistic efforts. Okami is using smart tech to enable an artistic look, which wouldn't be possible with just straight textured polygons. Improved shader skillzorz would enable better application of their artistic skills. eg. Uncharted 2 only looks as good as it does with its hand-painted textures because of the shaders that aply them.

Whatever Japan's artistic potential, learning to better utilise the hardware (assuming the OP's posit that Japan's developers aren't utilising shader tech is valid) would lead to better application of and results from their art.

I didn't mean art doesn't require tech or that in order to have art you need to throw away shaders, I'm saying tech is useless without art. Better tech CAN allow better art, but that's only if you have good artists to begin with. Okami and Street Fighter IV; two games with cel-shaded style graphics from the exact same company. Street Fighter IV blows Okami away in pure shaders and tech, yet SFIV is one ugly game. The character design is horrendous. Okami is still incredibly beautiful. It is a good marriage of tech and art. That said, I prefer the play SF4 because Okami is a boring game.

If I had to choose between sacrificing tech or sacrificing art, I would choose to sacrifice tech.

I actually do like the visuals in Uncharted 2 quite a bit. The character design not so much. I love the backgrounds and surroundings. I do wonder, how well can Uncharted 2's visual stand on its own if it was stripped of its shaders?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Take a look at Opoona, 3D Dot Heroes, and Street Fighter IV.

Take a look at LittleBigPlanet, Fable 2, BioShock and Viva Pinata. I can just as readily classify the majority of Japanese creations as big-eyed cartoon characters or cyberpunk teenagers with weird hair in psychedelic environments as you can claim all western titles are grey and dirt and bald space-marines! Those are the prefered games of western developers, requiring an art-style that suits the genre. It'd be plain stupid to have the next Halo go for characters more akin to the next Square-Enix creation. Similarly most Japanese created titles are in genres that benefit from the art style you clearly prefer and would look stupid with western-style space-marines.

If I had to choose between sacrificing tech or sacrificing art, I would choose to sacrifice tech.

I expect most people would agree. However, this thread is highlighting the point that you don't have to choose between one or other! If Japan has the art down pat, why aren't they progressing the tech as well?

 

[DeadlyNinja]

Take a look at LittleBigPlanet, Fable 2, BioShock and Viva Pinata. I can just as readily classify the majority of Japanese creations as big-eyed cartoon characters or cyberpunk teenagers with weird hair in psychedelic environments as you can claim all western titles are grey and dirt and bald space-marines! Those are the prefered games of western developers, requiring an art-style that suits the genre. It'd be plain stupid to have the next Halo go for characters more akin to the next Square-Enix creation. Similarly most Japanese created titles are in genres that benefit from the art style you clearly prefer and would look stupid with western-style space-marines.

Your examples are weird. I have never ever seen Fable 2 before until this thread and unless I'm looking at the wrong screens, that game is the very definition of generic. I thought I was looking at Oblivion (I'm looking at screens from Gamefaqs). Bioshock has a mix of generic elements and a unique art style, while Viva Pinata's just drawn by some of the worse artists out there. It does look different, there's no denying that... but different in a bad way (see Street Fighter 4). Rare's character designs always looked something out of a cereal box. LBP is a good example and stands out. It is one of the rare cases.

The description everybody uses for Japanese characters is actually a very funny contradiction. The cyber punk thing is a new one, but the hair and psychedelic environments is what makes each and every character unique. You can tell a character apart just by their silhouette. To come up with wild hair is to use your imagination to come up with something never seen before. That doesn't always mean it's good (like Yu Gi Oh), but to say something is weird while calling it generic is a big contradiction. The same can be said about psychedelic environments. It's easier to come up with something based on reality than to come up with something no one has ever seen before.

Let me use your example of Japanese character in an American game.

What if I took a character from Final Fantasy Tactics and stuck him in Final Fantasy XIII. It still wouldn't work due to the different art style. I'm using two slightly varying series from the same company to make this example. Hell, even Cloud would look out of place in DragonBall Z. His emo angst demeanor would completely stand out from DBZ's comical lighthearted style.

Now, what if I took Shepard from Mass Effect and shoved him into Resistance 2? Ask yourself this and honestly answer it: Would Shepard look out of place in it? Remember, my previous example was two similar series from the exact same company against 2 different characters from 2 different companies in 2 different genres.

I expect most people would agree. However, this thread is highlighting the point that you don't have to choose between one or other! If Japan has the art down pat, why aren't they progressing the tech as well?

Yeah, that's what I forgot to post when I wrote that sentence. I was trying to say that with big budgets required for tech and game development in general, something needs to be sacrificed. In Japanese game developer's case, they either had to skim on tech thus the lack of surface shaders.

If we talk about pure person preference, I have no problem with that. You can't please everybody, you know.

 

[function]

What if I took a character from Final Fantasy Tactics and stuck him in Final Fantasy XIII. It still wouldn't work due to the different art style. I'm using two slightly varying series from the same company to make this example. Hell, even Cloud would look out of place in DragonBall Z. His emo angst demeanor would completely stand out from DBZ's comical lighthearted style.

But if you took a character from Fable and stuck them in Oblivion it wouldn't work because of the art style. Fable's comical light hearted style and exaggerated body proportions wouldn't fit in a serious fantasy setting.

Now, what if I took Shepard from Mass Effect and shoved him into Resistance 2? Ask yourself this and honestly answer it: Would Shepard look out of place in it? Remember, my previous example was two similar series from the exact same company against 2 different characters from 2 different companies in 2 different genres.

Would a character from Street Fighter fit in a fighting game from SNK? Better than a character from Gears of War would fit in Halo! Actually, isn't Marcus in Capcom's Lost Planet 2 (and wasn't there a Spartan 2 in DoA4)?

Anyway, just because actors can be transferred between movies doesn't mean that making movies takes less skill than making a cartoon or comic (to use a "photo-real" vs "anime" example).

 

[DeadlyNinja]

But if you took a character from Fable and stuck them in Oblivion it wouldn't work because of the art style. Fable's comical light hearted style and exaggerated body proportions wouldn't fit in a serious fantasy setting.

I must have saw some crummy screens then. Like I said, I never seen this game before until this thread.

Would a character from Street Fighter fit in a fighting game from SNK? Better than a character from Gears of War would fit in Halo! Actually, isn't Marcus in Capcom's Lost Planet 2 (and wasn't there a Spartan 2 in DoA4)?

Anyway, just because actors can be transferred between movies doesn't mean that making movies takes less skill than making a cartoon or comic (to use a "photo-real" vs "anime" example).

Your 3 examples are... umm... weird. Considering most of them are cross-overs. I mean, we have Capcom Vs SNK. That said, yeah, they do fit in. I don't know much about the world of Halo, but I Marcus wouldn't look too out of place in Halo. I think Marcus would fit in about as well as he fits in with Lost Planet 2. I also find Lost Planet 2 and RE5 quite ugly in terms of art. God, I hated the orange Lost Planet 2 trailer. You can forcibly cram a character into a game for the sake of a cross over. Look at Soul Calibur 2.

I'm also not saying it takes less skills to do either. I'm saying they're using it to compensate for the lack of skills in the other, and that tech will always lose their luster faster than stronger art.

 

[asasega]

hmm interesting replys
but i talk about normal games which has traditional graphics, not cell shaded or any other fancy rendering
examples, in devil may cry 4 i dont think that simulating a litlle 3d-nes for the walls would alter the art direction
same for mgs4, a little bumpmapping or parallax for the ground or walls
same for Gran Turismo, albeit in the GTHD demo they used it for the wall in the tunnel but they removed it prologue
i agree that some western devs are exagerating, but i wasnt talking about using it the same way but to take advantage of it in their way like another user mentioned it
i remember back in the 90's when sega namco were lightyears ahead with tech in the arcades
anyway i think nextgen will see an answer, if they continue this trend or they will embrace new tech to further advanced their art style

 

[Johnny_Physics]

Now, what if I took Shepard from Mass Effect and shoved him into Resistance 2? Ask yourself this and honestly answer it: Would Shepard look out of place in it? Remember, my previous example was two similar series from the exact same company against 2 different characters from 2 different companies in 2 different genres.

Both games try to create a realistic look, so that's like asking if Danny Ocean would look out of place in The Good Shepard or, if a car from Forza would look weird in Gran Turismo.

Remember, my previous example was two similar series from the exact same company against 2 different characters from 2 different companies in 2 different genres.

FF Tactics characters would fit just fine into FF12...

You could pretty just swap characters between Tales of Symphonia, Naruto, Disgaea and, for spice, Ie, Tatemasu! that gay-erotica game. Shake and bake, what falls out can be called New Dragon Quest or something.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Your 3 examples are... umm... weird. Considering most of them are cross-overs. I mean, we have Capcom Vs SNK. That said, yeah, they do fit in. I don't know much about the world of Halo, but I Marcus wouldn't look too out of place in Halo. I think Marcus would fit in about as well as he fits in with Lost Planet 2. I also find Lost Planet 2 and RE5 quite ugly in terms of art. God, I hated the orange Lost Planet 2 trailer. You can forcibly cram a character into a game for the sake of a cross over. Look at Soul Calibur 2.

Doesn't have to be Capcom and SNK fighters. You could just as easily take Tekken Characters and interchange them with Virtua Figher characters or Soul Calibur characters and most people in the West wouldn't even notice the difference.

Swap Naruto game characters with Dragon Ball Z game characters and again most people in the west that aren't well versed in Japanese culture and anime wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

You could do the same with Final Fantasy characters in the upcoming Resonance of Fate or Lost Odyssey or Infinite Undiscovery.

Go back to PS2 era and there's a LOT of very similar JRPGs that all look very similar.

To many western eyes, Japanese games all look pretty similar... It's all dependant on your point of view and what you've spent many hours observing due to liking whatever it is you like.

Just as many of us sitting here had our jaws drop trying to imagine Fable characters in Oblivion. They would totally stick out like a sore thumb and be immediately noticeable for not being appropriate.

Likewise trying to interchange Halo and Gears characters. That would be a totally jarring experince with neither game bearing any semblence of similarity. Colorful and bright versus Dark and dreary.

Now take something like Overlord. Not much similar to that. Viva Pinata as someone mentioned before. Kameo. Uncharted 2.

It all comes down to personal preferences and what you like. Those things that you like you'll easily be able to see differences even in things that are very similar.

But that goes without saying. It's like that with everything. Art, Movies, Cars, Music, etc...

Regards,
SB

 

[asasega]

i still think it's because of tehnical dificulties
they were using it for years(decades now) in their pre-rendered movies
i know that the pre-rendered movies sometimes are outsourced, or done by a different internal team
but if they like it in pre-rendered cutscenes they sure would like them in-game too

 

[KongRudi]

I think that it's because there are more coders and less artists in the west, while it's the opposite in Japan.
So in the west, the coders time can be used more on the graphics, while in the Japan a coder need to work more on the toolchain instead of working as much on the graphics in the game. :-/
Also DS and PSP is a factor in Japan, while it's not in the west, so that's probably a factor aswelll.

Well, that's my guess.

 

[Ghostz]

There's only one Japanese art style and it's called anime and all their games look a like. You see, in the West, we know Mass Effect looks nothing like Uncharted 2, which looks nothing like Oblivion. I can never tell in most Japanese games if i'm playing in a fantasy setting or science fiction. FF13 is a perfect example of this trend.

 

[Ghostz]

Your examples are weird. I have never ever seen Fable 2 before until this thread and unless I'm looking at the wrong screens, that game is the very definition of generic. I thought I was looking at Oblivion (I'm looking at screens from Gamefaqs). Bioshock has a mix of generic elements and a unique art style, while Viva Pinata's just drawn by some of the worse artists out there. It does look different, there's no denying that... but different in a bad way (see Street Fighter 4). Rare's character designs always looked something out of a cereal box. LBP is a good example and stands out. It is one of the rare cases.

The description everybody uses for Japanese characters is actually a very funny contradiction. The cyber punk thing is a new one, but the hair and psychedelic environments is what makes each and every character unique. You can tell a character apart just by their silhouette. To come up with wild hair is to use your imagination to come up with something never seen before. That doesn't always mean it's good (like Yu Gi Oh), but to say something is weird while calling it generic is a big contradiction. The same can be said about psychedelic environments. It's easier to come up with something based on reality than to come up with something no one has ever seen before.

Let me use your example of Japanese character in an American game.

What if I took a character from Final Fantasy Tactics and stuck him in Final Fantasy XIII. It still wouldn't work due to the different art style. I'm using two slightly varying series from the same company to make this example. Hell, even Cloud would look out of place in DragonBall Z. His emo angst demeanor would completely stand out from DBZ's comical lighthearted style.

Now, what if I took Shepard from Mass Effect and shoved him into Resistance 2? Ask yourself this and honestly answer it: Would Shepard look out of place in it? Remember, my previous example was two similar series from the exact same company against 2 different characters from 2 different companies in 2 different genres.



Yeah, that's what I forgot to post when I wrote that sentence. I was trying to say that with big budgets required for tech and game development in general, something needs to be sacrificed. In Japanese game developer's case, they either had to skim on tech thus the lack of surface shaders.

If we talk about pure person preference, I have no problem with that. You can't please everybody, you know.

Riddle me this: what does character designs have to do with art direction and world building? Character art is meaningless when your world looks flat and bares no simulation. You could never transport Mass Effect's world and create Oblivion but I can put Cloud in any Japanese anime looking game and he'll fit right in.