ITAGAKI Clarifies X360 More Powerful Than PS3 in Interview Pt. 2

[aldo]

You know the measure of the power of a piece of hardware is not just CPU clock speeds; there are a number of factors to take into account. Obviously pure speed is one of them; another one is low-layer stuff like firmware, also middleware that's being supplied for that particular platform. So when you consider the hardware and software support all wrapped up in one, then yes, I would consider the 360 to be the most powerful system in that sense, in the next generation.-1UP Interview (Part2)

So while the general consensus is that the PS3 may be the most powerful of the two systems in a technical sense, Itagaki confirms that current versions of firmware and middleware allow developers to access and harness more of the X360's power. Simply stated, he is confirming what we already know, that X360 has superior firmware and middleware support than the PS3.

-aldo

 

[Titanio]

Itagaki confirms that current versions of firmware and middleware allow developers to access and harness more of the X360's power.

A nitpick, but that's not quite what he's saying. He's saying it's a better software environment, perhaps that it's EASIER to access/harness X360's power, but being able to harness power more easily, and being able to harness power period are two different things.

Pity he didn't tackle the point head-on, and needed to broaden the question to answer it. It's a relatively controversy-free interview with Itagaki, surprisingly!

 

[BlueTsunami]

Quite honestly...the way he words it

So when you consider the hardware and software support all wrapped up in one, then yes, I would consider the 360 to be the most powerful system in that sense

Is an OBVIOUS play on words. He can't just straight out say that the 360 is more powerful but reference to other things (as Titiano pointed out, Software) and say that everything in one neat package makes the 360 much more powerful. Once you take into account what hes saying you can see alot of what hes pointing out in the first place is subjective.

I love how hes very open about that though. Seems like the ball busting type.

 

[Black Dragon37]

Has Sony said a lot about software?

 

[aldo]

A nitpick, but that's not quite what he's saying. He's saying it's a better software environment, perhaps that it's EASIER to access/harness X360's power. Being able to harness power more easily, and being able to harness power period are two different things.

Pity he didn't tackle the point head-on, and needed to broaden the question to answer it.

It was obvious that he was side-stepping the question in the first interview, so at least this clarified where he was going with "the most powerful console" statement.

-aldo

 

[Acert93]

Pity he didn't tackle the point head-on, and needed to broaden the question to answer it.

Why, because he qualifies the question within the framework of the actual task of creating a game?

Question: Which is faster: A Drag Car or Porche 911?
Answer: Well, we raise in the twisting mountains, so the balance of speed and agility in the Porche are better for our, and therefore faster.

And if the same question was asked to someone aiming at land speed records in the Utah salt flats they would have said a drag car.

I have already given ample reasons why his opinion (ditto that of others) is pointless anyhow, but your point is kind of arcane. He has an opinion based on his needs. He legitimately qualified his remarks within the framework of his goal: Team Ninja creating a game. I take no issue with him commenting on that within the framework of his needs.

This may, or may not, be true of developers. I am willing to bet that it is both. I find it refreshing that he actually put some thought into his answer from his perspective. Of course that is the difference between someone working on a machine and someone looking at a piece of paper with theoretical stats.

His comments are valuable on many levels, but definately not in the scope of any universal metric of what is better/more powerful. He can only speak for himself. Ultiatemly the most powerful machine is this: The one with the best games; or if you are a graphics snob, the one with the best graphics. But that wont be decided on paper or in the opinions of developers to console magazines, but will be decided on the screen and by the pocketbook of consumers.

 

[Titanio]

Why, because he qualifies the question within the framework of the actual task of creating a game?

Question: Which is faster: A Drag Car or Porche 911?
Answer: Well, we raise in the twisting mountains, so the balance of speed and agility in the Porche are better for our, and therefore faster.

And if the same question was asked to someone aiming at land speed records in the Utah salt flats they would have said a drag car.

I have already given ample reasons why his opinion (ditto that of others) is pointless anyhow, but your point is kind of arcane. He has an opinion based on his needs. He legitimately qualified his remarks within the framework of his goal: Team Ninja creating a game. I take no issue with him commenting on that within the framework of his needs.

This may, or may not, be true of developers. I am willing to bet that it is both. I find it refreshing that he actually put some thought into his answer from his perspective. Of course that is the difference between someone working on a machine and someone looking at a piece of paper with theoretical stats.

His comments are valuable on many levels, but definately not in the scope of any universal metric of what is better/more powerful. He can only speak for himself. Ultiatemly the most powerful machine is this: The one with the best games; or if you are a graphics snob, the one with the best graphics. But that wont be decided on paper or in the opinions of developers to console magazines, but will be decided on the screen and by the pocketbook of consumers.

I completely appreciate that one machine may suit one man's needs better than another, and this may for him make that machine "better", but when people talk about "power" and a system being more "powerful", it's usually addressing a very specific point - hardware, hardware capability. I think the interviewer's question related to how powerful the systems were from a hardware perspective, and he opened the scope up a bit to talk about "the package" from a development perspective. It becomes a different debate then.

 

[blakjedi]

but will be decided on the screen and by the pocketbook of consumers.

That would make the Gameboy the most powerful console of every type ever.

 

[mckmas8808]

I completely appreciate that one machine may suit one man's needs better than another, and this may for him make that machine "better", but when people talk about "power" and a system being more "powerful", it's usually addressing a very specific point - hardware, hardware capability. I think the interviewer's question related to how powerful the systems were from a hardware perspective, and he opened the scope up a bit to talk about "the package" from a development perspective. It becomes a different debate then.

Correct and the way he side stepped the question I would think that he thinks the PS3's hardware is stronger. But he thinks if you include what the software can do to harness that power then the X360 is stronger.

 

[Acert93]

I completely appreciate that one machine may suit one man's needs better than another, and this may for him make that machine "better", but when people talk about "power" and a system being more "powerful", it's usually addressing a very specific point - hardware, hardware capability. I think the interviewer's question related to how powerful the systems were from a hardware perspective, and he opened the scope up a bit to talk about "the package" from a development perspective. It becomes a different debate then.

Context.

1UP is asking a game developer what he thinks is the most powerful hardware for making games.

Itagaki, a game developer, responded that he feels the 360 is the most powerful hardware for making games.

He is very clear that the 360, in his opinion (and we should limite his statement to just that--his opinion based on his needs and the facts he has), is just that:

So when you consider the hardware and software support all wrapped up in one, then yes, I would consider the 360 to be the most powerful system in that sense, in the next generation.

Whether it is the hardware, software, a combination, etc... that makes it the most powerful platform--for him--is kind of irrelevant.

I know, I know... everyone wants to frame this in their ePenis Console debate, but that really is not the issue. From a game developers standpoint the most powerful platform is the platform that allows them to create the game they envision.

I see absolutely no conflict with the question and his answer. He gives his answer within a context--a very valid one considering 1. the purpose of the machine (playing games) and 2. the work he does (creating games).

To put it another way: If Team Ninja can get more power out of one machine over another, it is the most powerful machine. That is all that matters to Team Ninja.

From a developer standpoint it is more than fair to frame the answer in regards to the power you can extract from a system.

The Sega Saturn was a pretty powerful machine--yet many developers had a very VERY hard time extracting power from it. So while one developer could say it is more powerful, another could say it is not.

Both are right within the context of their dev teams, skill, budget, dev time, and design goals.

This whole, "System A has to be more powerful because it does 2x as many bungholios" is much more slanted than Itagaki's response. At least his has a context of the device use and Team Ninjas goal: TN's game creation.

I am not going to brow beat his comments or treat them as gospel. The only reason to "pity" his answer is because he is not saying what you want or framed his answer in his own perspective, something that applies to him, and you were looking for something else.

Really, fans on both sides make far too much of what these type of statements. On a dev-by-dev and game-by-game basis all that matters is what is best to reach their design goals. Whatever allows them to reach their design goals within ALL of their limitations (design goals, team size, budget, time line, technical skill)--THAT is the most powerful console.

 

[Qroach]

Without even stretching you could interpret that as reach peak performance on one machine and not on the next.

 

[Acert93]

That would make the Gameboy the most powerful console of every type ever.

In some contexts YES. But not if you are a developer trying to make KZ2 or Halo 3. The gameboy is not going to put that stuff on the screen, and if it tried people are not going to pay for it.

Like I said, from a developer standpoint the most powerful is whatever allows you to create your vision. The answer from the 400 man team at Square-Enix is going to be different than that from the 40 man team at id Software. Frequently the answer is the same, but not always.

 

[blakjedi]

How many different ways to cut this stupid question and response up?

The most powerful:

Development environment
Software tools
firmware middleware

Blah

He said most powerful console. Again what does it matter what Itagaki says if you believe that PS3 is the most powerful hardware system?

Folks are parsing words. Just take it for what it is...

 

[Titanio]

Really, fans on both sides make far too much of what these type of statements. On a dev-by-dev and game-by-game basis all that matters is what is best to reach their design goals. Whatever allows them to reach their design goals within ALL of their limitations (design goals, team size, budget, time line, technical skill)--THAT is the most powerful console.

Acert, the question asks about hardware and he switched the answer to what you are calling "platform" - the all encompassing package that devs are presented with, of which hardware is but one part.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all with what you're saying. But it's a seperate point to the one I'm making. However important you consider it to be or not to be, "power" is usually discussed and debated in terms of hardware and hardware capability. If you say that System X is more powerful than System Y, 9/10 people are going to be thinking that means that System X's hardware is more powerful, not in the more nebulous, slightly more subjective context of "the platform", the firmware, the software, the way i'm feeling on tuesdays" etc.

And the question posed was clearly about system power/hardware power, if we need to be more specific about our definitions of power now (and I don't think we do. It's clear what we mean when we talk about power, or it should be). What you're talking about is how easy the system is to develop for, and how it matches a team's aims. That's a variable, not something static and constant (unlike the hardware itself).

edit - and yes, I was hoping he'd go straight to the nub of the issue and talk about system power. Ultimately I think that'll become the limiting factor, not the stuff around it.

 

[c0_re]

These topics are so pointless, post it again in 2 years

 

[London Geezer]

These topics are so pointless, post it again in 2 years

Even then, only saddos posting on internet forums will actually care about "what's more powerful". Ooops...
I mean come on, most people seem to have already decided which console they want, because they believe it is the most powerful or has the games they want or whatever other reason. Will the average customer actually care if the console they don't have is more powerful? Apart from casual chit-chat about consoles, will he actually CARE?
I don't think so. And if he does care so bad, he will just end up buying both. Still, i see more people buying both because they want to play games that are exclusive to each platform, or features that are only available to one platform. Not really because of "power" reasons.

 

[blakjedi]

Update to the 1up article:

Quote:
You know I just really, really, really, really, really like the X360. The hardware is not as powerful as the PS3 but you should see the games I can make on it anyway. So then yes, I would consider the 360 to be the most powerful system in that sense, in the next generation.-1UP Interview (PartDeux)

I thought he'd never say it!

 

[Titanio]

Update to the 1up article:

Quote:
You know I just really, really, really, really, really like the X360. The hardware is not as powerful as the PS3 but you should see the games I can make on it anyway. So then yes, I would consider the 360 to be the most powerful system in that sense, in the next generation.-1UP Interview (Part2)

I thought he'd never say it!

Dude, the thread was started with that quote

edit - err. dodgy quote there serves me for only reading the bolded bits!

 

[London Geezer]

Yeah welcome to last week...

 

[aldo]

Why, because he qualifies the question within the framework of the actual task of creating a game?

Question: Which is faster: A Drag Car or Porche 911?
Answer: Well, we raise in the twisting mountains, so the balance of speed and agility in the Porche are better for our, and therefore faster.

Not sure this is a fair analogy. I think a better analogy would be two cars targeting the same terrain, but the drivers can't reach the pedal in one to reach full acceleration. His comments do not reflect one console can achieve better in their type of game or programming (terrain), but merely that they don't have the software that allows them to more easily get their project developed. Using the current software tools they might have to extend themselves a bit to reach the same potential on the PS3.

-aldo