Is PS2 more powerfull than GCN?

[mkillio]

The excuses never cease... Riiight, now all the PSX units out there are defunct and then sold away with the controllers... OoooKay.

It's by no means an excuse, it's a fact, at least in my personal experience. Plus I never said that "Every PSX that someone I've known ownes has broken" did I?

I also never said that my friends sold their broken PSX's either. If their PSX's broke they either got a new one or sold the controllers to a store or to someone else.

How many 4-player games require analog button control???

I didn't mean for multi-player games specifically, I meant for games in general.

This is probably just me but I couldn't have a controller that isn't meant for my system, be it color or otherwise because I would consider them sub-par.

 

[randycat99]

Hey, image is everything, isn't it? If that is the case, you should have no problem spending as much money as necessary to accomplish that objective.

 

[mkillio]

That's why I added a "side note" stating my personal opinion and even stated that others probably wouldn't agree.

I bought three extra controllers for GC, and they are all different colours btw, then the Wave Bird came out and I bought that and I plan on buying three more when they have three more colors come out (mainly so I don't get them mixed up though).

We can however agree to disagree on this one though right? We both have different opinions on this subject and neither of us is likely going to change his mind. So let's at the least not get in to a personal argument about this.

 

[randycat99]

Sorry, just venting.

 

[archie4oz]

The only reason why the middleware solutions became widely available was because of complaints from developers to begin with. If development was easy from the start, there wouldn't be a need for loads of middleware.

Middleware exists solely becaue PS2 is hard to program for, yes

That would be completely incorrect. Console middleware became heavily popularized since the PSX days (and been around longer). Middleware today plays a big role for many vendors as it provides an abstraction for targetting multiple platforms (e.g. Criterion, Intrinsic). Also the GCN and Xbox exlusives are not immune to middleware, both platforms see extensive use of middleware...

If the DC didn't die prematurely, we would've seen similar improvements.

You did, it was called Shenmue II... Like the DC; Xbox and the GCN are going to peak rather quickly as it's relatively easy to extract high levels of performance within the range they're expected to produce. Halo 2, Doom 3 (for Xbox) and Metroid Prime are likely to be highlight levels of performance you'll see. Beyond that, it's really more of a matter of what the content is (not how it's created) that's going to make more of an impression. That and developer ingenuity at gameplay...

Hey, doesn't this sound like the whole add-in versus built-in thing? Add-ins are NEVER successful... the only truly successful add-in hardware to date is definitely the N64 RAM expansion

Not so, Sony has pretty much broken that precedent.

Actually if we're not considering worldwide availability as a criteria, then the FDS proved that wrong first. Then the PC Engine with it's Super CD-ROM2 add--on (which proved so successful that the Duos became standard). Of course the aformentioned RAM pack for the N64. At the rate of sales of Sony's network adaptor I'd toss that one in as well. Memory cards are a choice so obvious that they're often overlooked. Non-standard game controllers as a category would also count since *most* are not required for gameplay.

Maybe this whole 4 player thing is overrated for you guys but I have friends and I need 4 controllers, if only for TS2 and SSB:M.

It isn't, but one doesn't need 4 ports to do it. On the other hand, while 4-player is great (SSB DX, Mario Party, Virtua and Mario Tennis, Beach Spikers, DOA2/3, Halo, etc), 8-player is a total blast. Many nights were burned away with 8-player soccer and hockey with beer and pizza (football and basketball more common with my American friends). In my university days, 10-player Saturn on a Hi-Vision consumed waaaay more hours than I would have liked to have gone to more "important tasks."

 

[BenSkywalker]

Halo 2, Doom 3 (for Xbox) and Metroid Prime are likely to be highlight levels of performance you'll see.

In the case of Halo2 and Doom3, the visuals are significantly beyond anything we have seen for either of the other two though(and for that matter, far better then anything we have seen for the XBox to date). For Metroid Prime, do you have the final build of the game(I haven't seen it)? The demo makes it appear comparable to SFA, slightly behind RL in the visual tech department(although the artistry appears most impressive).

 

[marconelly!]

Middleware exists solely becaue PS2 is hard to program for, yes

That would be completely incorrect.

Archie, I was being ironic. I was basically answering to his comment about middleware and said similar things as you did.

 

[Fafalada]

Xbox and GCN has an easy development curve compared to PS2 that's why it doesn't need as MUCH middleware.

PC has been the champion of middleware licensing like - forever, and it continues to be so. Do you actually believe it's because PC development curve is so much worse then PS2s that it needs it that much more?

 

[archie4oz]

In the case of Halo2 and Doom3, the visuals are significantly beyond anything we have seen for either of the other two though(and for that matter, far better then anything we have seen for the XBox to date).

I dunno, I though Wreckless was pretty impressive. Just not an FPS and not made by JC (or Bungie for that matter)...

For Metroid Prime, do you have the final build of the game(I haven't seen it)? The demo makes it appear comparable to SFA, slightly behind RL in the visual tech department(although the artistry appears most impressive).

Just an example of a real title of what I expect with regards to the GCN, probably not the best (ironically another first person game). Probably not quite the level of Doom 3, however I think some of the artistic decisions also prevent some things (I should've mentioned RL, but I think that can be improved as well). I mean look at todays Madden and Live (Fever and SEGA sports titles). Visually they're *very* (especially in modeling, skinning, and animation) impressive, but they're sports games, and there's only so much you can do with the content, to the point you're really just trying to see how much detail you can pack. The monster lighting in Doom 3 (and SH3 to a lesser extent) is one facet that allows one to really play off of light in dramatic ways and emphasis other aspects.

One problem I do have though, is the tendency to equate realism, or realism based effects as *visually stunning* and leading the way, while non-photorealistic presentations are usually dismissed simple, unimpressive, and a scapegoat for hardware limitations.

Of course I only say that because I spent a rather large sum of time at university and work researching NPR and visual perception and realize the headaches of game implementation (and Zelda's animation still causes me to bang my head on the monitor).

PC has been the champion of middleware licensing like - forever, and it continues to be so.

Heheh, I can think of a few game engines that are the biggest offenders...

 

[PC-Engine]

PCs have had middleware for a long time because PCs have existed for a long time. Middleware on PS2 however, didn't become prevailent until developers started complaining only about a year after PS2's launch. Given enough time ANY platform would accumulate a sizeable middleware market which really isn't a mystery.

 

[archie4oz]

Umm... Middleware (for the PS2) was proliferating months before it was even released. The DC also had plenty of middleware (as did the PSX). Middleware is a big industry for consoles, it doesn't matter what platform it is. Especially for APIs, media formats/codecs, and tools that don't get a lot of mainstream support on PCs...

 

[PC-Engine]

Umm... Middleware (for the PS2) was proliferating months before it was even released. The DC also had plenty of middleware (as did the PSX). Middleware is a big industry for consoles, it doesn't matter what platform it is. Especially for APIs, media formats/codecs, and tools that don't get a lot of mainstream support on PCs...

Wasn't what I heard back then

I remember hearing PSX developers that were transitioning to PS2 development making their concerns heard back then.

 

[archie4oz]

Yeah, because they were in an immature state. Hell, it was rather hard for them to be considering the PS2 SDK was pretty incomplete. Especially if you couldn't read Japanese...

 

[PC-Engine]

Yeah, because they were in an immature state. Hell, it was rather hard for them to be considering the PS2 SDK was pretty incomplete. Especially if you couldn't read Japanese...

So Madden 2001 was developed by a Japanese team?

 

[Fafalada]

I'm pretty sure Criterion started PS2 Renderware development way back in first half of 99. Unreal and Litech ports were started around fall 99 as well from what I remember.
Heck even OGL port was started before Japanese launch IIRC.
And these are just the most known ones...

You didn't need a Japanese team, but the early PS2 SDKs were mostly documented in Japanese yes, which meant that for instance a lot of sample code (which is already an example of grotesquely nasty coding) was even harder to understand.
At the start, only thing there was in english were somewhat weakly translated hardware manuals...

 

[Ozymandis]

(and Zelda's animation still causes me to bang my head on the monitor).

In what way?

 

[Tagrineth]

Not so, Sony has pretty much broken that precedent. Sony add-ons seem quite accessible for purchase (except that damn modem thingy ). Can't find a multitap??? Get in your car, go to Best Buy, pick up multitap- that simple. I got one right here.

You still have to buy 3 other controllers on the other consoles to support 4-way, anyway. So there goes the cost advantage. The PS2 owner, OTOH, probably already has numerous controllers lying around from the PSX days. So that is already taken care of, really. Don't have any extra PSX/PS2 controllers? Ask a friend- they probably got one for you (an analog one, at that). This is the obiquitous PSX, mind you! Myself, I had a PSX analog controller, a Mad Catz DS knockoff, and a PSX DS controller ready to go when I finally "needed" 4-player action on Gauntlet Legends.

Really, this 4-player readiness issue is highly overrated. Anybody who really cares, does so only to grasp for straws.

What I mean is, even though they aren't that hard to buy, you still do have to buy them seperately (and it's apparently pretty expensive in the end)... this does make devs somewhat wary of including its use.

Most people just don't buy the multitaps, period. Kinda makes it like a catch-22 - devs don't support 4-player because the multitaps don't sell well, people don't buy the multitaps because so few 4-player games are available. Whee.

 

[Teasy]

You did, it was called Shenmue II... Like the DC; Xbox and the GCN are going to peak rather quickly as it's relatively easy to extract high levels of performance within the range they're expected to produce.

As many on this forum have already said, PSX was a traditional easy to program system and its games continued improving and improving 5+ years after its release. You have no way of knowing that Dreamcast wouldn't have done the same, logically it would have. XBox and GameCube are easy to program for compared to PS2 but that does not mean they are easy to get the best visuals from. They're both easy to get a game running well, but that does not mean that its easy to get the best possible performance from either of them. Both consoles will have a hell of allot of improvements over the years as developers start to try more and more complex programing with them. Just one example of this is XBox's pixel shader and GameCube's TEV, both programmable units that will allow for some great effects in the future once devs get used to the tech.

Halo 2, Doom 3 (for Xbox) and Metroid Prime are likely to be highlight levels of performance you'll see. Beyond that, it's really more of a matter of what the content is (not how it's created) that's going to make more of an impression.

You think Metroid Prime is going to be as good as GC games get visually? Not a chance, I bet they could improve that game visually even if they kept the totally solid 60fps. Then of course you have to try to imagine what sort of visuals they could produce if they dropped their framerate to 30fps, twice the textures/texture resolution per frame, twice the geometry per frame ect ect. I really doubt Halo 2 will be as good as it gets for XBox either.

 

[mr]

Hi everybody,

IMO you have to be really careful when talking about "image-quality", "better visuals", "more polygons", "texture quality" and comparing console games, or their respective consoles, based on these measurements.

Very often people perceive different things in different ways and name them very different.
Texture crawling (because of lack of MipMapping and/or tri-filtering), lack or poor implementation of flicker-filters (and different usage of frame/field rendering) make lot's of PS2 games look inferior to many people compared to their XBOX/GC counterparts which exhibit in general less of these "artifacts". But even then these "poor looking" games can contain copious amounts of textures or tris which make them "good looking" to many people that are not turned away of the forementioned "artifacts".

I just want to say: Please don't generalize Image quality or your understanding of it, with the performance of the underlying hardware.

The technically best games on every console tend to use the Hardware in a way that gives little room to witness it's shortcomings.
Together with better knowledge of the hardware over time, developers learn to use the given power they have more effective.

A good example is Rogue Leader on GC. It could be using 100% of GC Tnl Power (I'm not saying it is) and the next Rogue Leader would still look considerably better because of better usage of that power in terms of "visual revenue".(better artwork, better LoD, better occlusion culling, better usage of the TEV and tons of other things)

I'm not making a case for any console. Every one has it's strongpoints along with it's weaknesses. Very often the difference between a "good looking" game and an "ugly one" is simply artwork.
I wished everybody could buy all four of them (DC ahoi) and play the strong titles each platform has going for it.

Have fun.

BTW this is a very nice forum with posters like Fafalada, ERP, archie4oz and all the others.
Keep up the good work.