Is PS2 more powerfull than GCN?

[LogisticX]

Does PS2 have a large library of amazing games, yes
do I think its a must own system now, oh hell yes.
is it a good piece of hardware? god no, like the games all you want, but just because the geometry is hanging with the big boys, doesnt mean the muddy ugly textures, and pixelized scenes cut the mustard.

Burnout 2.

VInce, I keep hearing this - "it was first shown in 1999", "its almost 2 years older".

what I am saying is not Anti anything, it is just fact.


fact- PS2's hardware sucks, there is more to graphics than raw polygons, like for instance, wrapping them in highres textures makes a world of difference, being you have obviously limited yourself to PS2 games, I guess you have never seen one.

Instead of meagerly throwing words around, why don't you take the time to actually READ what Vince is saying? He clearly states why the hardware, given its time of release, is not the "sucky hardware" idea that you keep trying to pound into everyones heads.

Ps2 has a bigger library than Xbox and Gamecube combined....oh wait, what? It's not fair to compare a system's library to one that had over a year headstart on the competition?
Then how is it fair to harshly criticise hardware that was released long before GCN and Xbox? I've already stated why Sony designed the PS2 as they did for the time in another post, so I'm not going to bother wasting my time.

As for saying DC has better image quality? That's being completely dilusional.... aside from the native VGA support, there is nothing DC has over PS2. I'm an avid supporter and owner of the Dreamcast, and I've not seen a single title that even comes close to MGS2's technical prowess. [/code]

 

[CaptainHowdy]

so let me get it straight, now we are "explaining why PS2 has inferiour hardware", good, glad we got that straight, now go back and read the title of the thread, and my point is made.

 

[LogisticX]

No, I'm merely stating that the hardware isn't as badly designed as you want to believe. I'm not in the position to say any of the hardwares are any stronger than another...I do believe though that PS2's exclusives are keeping up well graphically to Xbox's and GCN's.

 

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

CaptainHowdy:

If the PS2 was designed using a traditional approach with good hardwired features for texturing and T/L, it would most likely be DEMOLISHED today by the GC and XBOX. Sony had the forsight to design something that would LAST but this made the machine more complicated and some people simply fail to grasp this decision and decides that the design is "lazy and sloppy".

I think what CaptainHowdy wants to see is a "conventionally designed" PS2 so he can claim full Sony defeat as it will obviously be superceded by its compeditors in a years time.


Dear Captain, the only reason why the PS2 is still hanging in there with the GC and XBOX in the hardware department is because it's architecture was designed to LAST, which to you is quite simply: "lazy, sloppy and poorly designed. The PS2 is a bitch to program on. But the harder the work, the more comes out of it. This is more true for the PS2 than any other console. This is not stupid, but rather it is at the heart of its longivity.

 

[Logan Leonhart]

There´s a difference between inferior and "piss-poor compared to the competition" PS2 has games DC would never be able to touch, and talking in terms of IQ they´re about the same. Most important of all, the hardware has proven powerfull enough to hang out with the competition quite nicely (Man, I can´t wait to see how FFXII looks like)...and you really are blowing out of proportions the "muddy, painted with crayons" textures.
FFX alone has great looking textures in the majority of places. Take your Sony hate elsewhere.

 

[randycat99]

CaptainHowdy:

If the PS2 was designed using a traditional approach with good hardwired features for texturing and T/L, it would most likely be DEMOLISHED today by the GC and XBOX. Sony had the forsight to design something that would LAST but this made the machine more complicated and some people simply fail to grasp this decision and decides that the design is "lazy and sloppy".

That is a superb point you bring up! Hardware/hard-wired features are great, but quickly can become obsolete. The nice thing about software/software-enabled features is that it is indefinitely upgradeable as the times and requirements dictate.

If PS2 will be anything like PSX in its elder years, we can expect to see significant improvements and respectable pacing with current technologies up to the very end (and possibly beyond, after PS3 is introduced), despite the all too frequent claims that "it's just about tapped out, can't expect more from here on out". Riiight. It's like the "experts" who predict that Apple will be out of business every year since the day it was incepted.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

No, I just want to see them use things that others have been using for years, even N64 had forms of anti-aliasing and Anisotropic filtering.

Even N64/DC had 4 controller ports

It is a an exageration to call it HORRIBLE, but the image quality is.

 

[Logan Leonhart]

I take it that you´ve never seen DC in action then, if you call PS2´s image quality terrible (take a look at Shenmue, and every graphical flaw you love to list is there and worse, and you should also include low polygon counts in the DC list too).

And what about the 4 controller ports?

 

[randycat99]

AA has appeared in some PS2 games. Last time I checked, 4 controllers had nothing to do with IQ. So basically all you got left is that anisotropic thingy, which even fewer people are knowlegible enough to appreciate than even FSAA or bumpmapping for that matter. Need 4-controller support, buy the adapter. It's no different than having to buy a DVD remote for an Xbox. There's always options.

 

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

To finish a large project it's more about what to leave out than what to include. It's easy to draw up a bullet list of needed things but to include EVERYTHING on the at list, it would NOT ship. You get some, you loose some, live with it. Ultimantly, the PS2 has enough good things (a lot) going for it to live this long and this an't a bad thing.

Four controller ports I agree on.

 

[marconelly!]

It is a an exageration to call it HORRIBLE, but the image quality is.

I'll just repeat that pretty much every best looking game I counted in one of my previous posts have the same or better image quality than the best of Dreamcast.

 

[PC-Engine]

The only reason why the middleware solutions became widely available was because of complaints from developers to begin with. If development was easy from the start, there wouldn't be a need for loads of middleware.

Oh, I'm sure being able to share the code, art assets and significantly speed up the development across completely different hardware architectures, has nothing to with it.

Middleware exists solely becaue PS2 is hard to program for, yes.

But are any of the best looking PS2 games running at 60fps?

Well, truth is, almost every best looking PS2 game runs at 60FPS.

MGS2, BG: DA, GT3, Burnout 2, J&D, AC4, DMC, Ratchet & Clank, Onimusha 1 & 2, ZoE, ZoE2 (isn't out yet, but it's confirmed to be 60FPS)

There's few that run at 30FPS, most notably SH2 (and probably SH3), FFX, ICO.

Xbox and GCN has an easy development curve compared to PS2 that's why it doesn't need as MUCH middleware.

Isn't the reason for the ease of development on the X-Box a middleware called DirectX?

Ummm you mean APIs like OpenGL, GLide, DirectX, PowerSGL?

 

[marconelly!]

Xbox and GCN has an easy development curve compared to PS2 that's why it doesn't need as MUCH middleware.

Great majority of multi platform releases are developed using some kind of middleware, so I don't see how GC and Xbox don't need it as much?

Of course, games developed exclusively for one console are most of the time developed without any kind of middleware, but again, that goes for all consoles, not just GC and Xbox.

 

[PC-Engine]

If PS2 will be anything like PSX in its elder years, we can expect to see significant improvements and respectable pacing with current technologies up to the very end

Isn't PSX a traditional architecture? Wasn't it easy to program?


If the DC didn't die prematurely, we would've seen similar improvements. GCN and Xbox will see similar improvements also. The difference between the majority of improvements on PS2 will be ways to get around problems while on a traditional architecture the improvements revolve around higher performance and quality instead of bandaids.

 

[Tagrineth]

AA has appeared in some PS2 games. Last time I checked, 4 controllers had nothing to do with IQ. So basically all you got left is that anisotropic thingy, which even fewer people are knowlegible enough to appreciate than even FSAA or bumpmapping for that matter. Need 4-controller support, buy the adapter. It's no different than having to buy a DVD remote for an Xbox. There's always options.

Personally, I still have yet to see a PSX or PS2 multitap at all (of course, I have online, but never IRL)... I've seen a Genesis one once... and I'm the only person I know with one for SNES.

Honestly, multitaps are by NO stretch of the imagination a replacement for four onboard controller ports.

N64 was definitely the first console to really break away in the 'party game' style with 4-player multi in like 40+% of games.

That isn't to say there weren't any on PSX or other previous consoles, but my point is, multitaps don't sell well enough to make them viable replacements for actually having the ports onboard.

Hey, doesn't this sound like the whole add-in versus built-in thing? Add-ins are NEVER successful... the only truly successful add-in hardware to date is definitely the N64 RAM expansion.

 

[randycat99]

Not so, Sony has pretty much broken that precedent. Sony add-ons seem quite accessible for purchase (except that damn modem thingy ). Can't find a multitap??? Get in your car, go to Best Buy, pick up multitap- that simple. I got one right here.

You still have to buy 3 other controllers on the other consoles to support 4-way, anyway. So there goes the cost advantage. The PS2 owner, OTOH, probably already has numerous controllers lying around from the PSX days. So that is already taken care of, really. Don't have any extra PSX/PS2 controllers? Ask a friend- they probably got one for you (an analog one, at that). This is the obiquitous PSX, mind you! Myself, I had a PSX analog controller, a Mad Catz DS knockoff, and a PSX DS controller ready to go when I finally "needed" 4-player action on Gauntlet Legends.

Really, this 4-player readiness issue is highly overrated. Anybody who really cares, does so only to grasp for straws.

 

[Logan Leonhart]

I don´t see what´s the big deal over 4 player games. The biggest games of 2002, 2001 and 2000(that I can remember) the vast majority of them were either single player experiences or 2 player games. I don´t really see why this is important.

 

[mkillio]

What add-ons has sony had, besides the modem? Anyone that I know that had a PSX doesn't have it anymore because it either broke or they sold it along with their controllers. Who wants a used controller anyways? The original PSX controllers aren't as good as the PS2 ones either.Also a multi-tap is $35 which is more than the cost of a controller so you'll have to buy 4+ controllers as far as money is concerned.

Maybe this whole 4 player thing is overrated for you guys but I have friends and I need 4 controllers, if only for TS2 and SSB:M.

 

[randycat99]

The excuses never cease... Riiight, now all the PSX units out there are defunct and then sold away with the controllers... OoooKay.

If it's got 2 sticks and a rumble, it will work just fine on your PS2. How many 4-player games require analog button control???

 

[zurich]

The Bouncer, for one (it wont work with DS1)