Is Gamecube in peril?

Teasy said:
Glonk

Actually your point doesn't stand in any way AFAICS. Did Sega GT 2002 sell more then the DC version?.. maybe. But was Sega GT 2002 better then SMS?.. did Sega GT 2002 sell more then SMS? No and no :)

You can have whatever personal opinion you want on Sega GT being better then SMS, but in the end the fact is that Sega GT 2002 wasn't in the same league as SMS according to most people, and of course it sold nowhere near as many copies as well.
More people have SegaGT in their homes right now than SMS, I believe. ;)

And I honestly did enjoy SegaGT more than SMS. Most people who enjoyed SMS either couldn't get enough of SM64 or are living off pure nostalgia. SMS is an average game at best IMO, SegaGT is above average.
 
That's because the console war, like all marketing, is not merely a battle of products - it's about positioning. Mindshare. Nintendo's firmly established. Microsoft and Xbox aren't.
Microsoft not established?! I'd be very surprised if anyone civilized doesn't know about them already. How many copies of operating systems have they sold? How many times their commercials broadcast? Sure Xbox is a new product, but so is Gamecube...[/quote]
 
Nintendo is losing marketshare from the N64 at a rapid rate right now. They need to do something about it IMO. If Mario, Starfox, and Metroid can't boost Cube past Xbox in US/EU than I don't think anything can, even Zelda.

DVD: One third of US households have DVD players. That's pretty significant, but even if parents have DVD often times teens and young adults living at home want their own player. It hurts the Cube, but sometimes I think this effect is overstated.

Also, the longer that MS is in the market and with the purchase of Rare, Microsoft will be able to provide a more complete games lineup and broaden the appeal of the Xbox. I'm betting that MS does a better job at catering to the early teen crowd than Nintendo does at grabing the late teen crowd in 2003.

More to the point though: Parents with young teens have realized that a PS2 with Ratchet and Clank, Jak & Dakster, and Sly Cooper, along with DVD playback, is just as appealing as a Gamecube with Mario, Starfox, and Metroid Prime. Sony has already successfully entered into the market with software that appeals to the outskirts (early teen) of Nintendo's core userbase. They better hope that Sony doesn't go even lower down the age tree with some decent offerings...
 
Marconelly wrote:

Microsoft not established?! I'd be very surprised if anyone civilized doesn't know about them already. How many copies of operating systems have they sold? How many times their commercials broadcast? Sure Xbox is a new product, but so is Gamecube.

Uhh... You misunderstood me. I was saying that Microsoft has not yet established itself in the videogame industry. Certainly not to the extent that Nintendo has.

But give them time... It would seem to be inevitable.

Kolgar
 
I had a very lengthy reply typed up and it got eaten just as they switched the forum theme over(don't know if they did for the default scheme, but the 'classic' B3D color scheme has been updated, looking much nicer now although less like the classic B3D boards).

I'll summarize some points.

With just over a year on the market Nintendo has never had a console with the installed base of the GameCube. Not the N64, not the SNES and certainly not the NES. With just over a year on the market Nintendo has never had as many games available for one of their set top consoles. They have just under 200 games on the Cube right now, in its entire life the N64 never hit 300 in the US.

For every title sold on the Cube, Nintendo gets $10 they wouldn't if they were third party. With an installed base of ~10Million and a ~4.5:1 tie in rate Nintendo has gained $450Million dollars that they wouldn't have had if not for their being first party, and this after just over a year.

Nintendo has one of the best P/E ratios of any company involved in technology(actually by far the best from what I have seen). They are making truck loads of profits off of their current business model, to go along with their two strongest platform launches in their history, and the highest tie in rates they have ever had at comparable life cycle points. In terms of absolute profits, Nintendo is comparable to all of Sony. People should give pause and think about that last bit. All of Sony's electroncis, computers and PS2 combined are roughly even with Nintendo's gaming profits.

On to some specifics.

Johnny-

Nintendo is losing marketshare from the N64 at a rapid rate right now.

If this were true it would be a problem, but its not so it isn't. The N64 managed ~23% marketshare last generation, the Cube is at roughly that now and increasing steadily in the US and Japan(haven't seen full European numbers lately).

They need to do something about it IMO. If Mario, Starfox, and Metroid can't boost Cube past Xbox in US/EU than I don't think anything can, even Zelda.

Nintendo outselling MS is irrelevant when looking at if they are in trouble or not. The Cube is pulling down the same marketshare the N64 had and growing with the XBox seeing comparable numbers(also on the incline). Where do you think that markeshare is coming from? Nintendo being in third place with around ten million units sold has them on significantly better footing then a year after the NES launch when they were trying to reach the million unit mark and utterly dominated the market.

As far as boosting sales, Cube's marketshare spiked several percentage points last month, coinciding with the holiday season and the release of Metroid. As far as SarFox and Zelda, both of them were outsold last gen by MarioKart. As far as Mario is concerned, they should be right around three million units sold world wide as of now. Halo caliber sales in one third the time on market isn't doing too badly.

DVD: One third of US households have DVD players. That's pretty significant, but even if parents have DVD often times teens and young adults living at home want their own player. It hurts the Cube, but sometimes I think this effect is overstated.

DVD players have hit the sub $50 mark, quite a bit faster then I expected. I expect the DVD playback to become a larger factor next price cut with it becoming rather huge when the PS2 and Box hit $99.

Also, the longer that MS is in the market and with the purchase of Rare, Microsoft will be able to provide a more complete games lineup and broaden the appeal of the Xbox. I'm betting that MS does a better job at catering to the early teen crowd than Nintendo does at grabing the late teen crowd in 2003.

Based on what? For young teens I'm not seeing much in the pipe from MS. Blinx was supposed to give Mario a run for his money, look how that turned out.

More to the point though: Parents with young teens have realized that a PS2 with Ratchet and Clank, Jak & Dakster, and Sly Cooper, along with DVD playback, is just as appealing as a Gamecube with Mario, Starfox, and Metroid Prime.

If it was true that Nintendo's demographic were mainly young kids, then this could be a serious factor. Sony has been a major factor in the kids market for years now, look at their top ten for any month and you will find titles aimed at young kids. The only platform that has next to nothing of worth for younger gamers is the Box.

Sony has already successfully entered into the market with software that appeals to the outskirts (early teen) of Nintendo's core userbase. They better hope that Sony doesn't go even lower down the age tree with some decent offerings...

I don't think Nintendo is too worried. When you manage to have your best console launch ever with the highest tie in rates ever, I would assume you wouldn't be too worried about someone else offering titles that are direct competition to yours and sell a fraction, despite being on a platform with 5x the installed base.

Right now we are at ~70Million consoles sold for this gen with another 100Million-130Million being likely over the next few years. The battle is not, nor has it ever been, for second place in terms of MS and Nintendo. That is simply posturing for PR/fan purposes(although it is fun to 'keep score'). Both of them want the same thing, the largest installed base possible. Right now it appears that MS is taking marketshare away from Sony in the US and Europe more then anything, certainly not Nintendo. After just over a year Nin and MS are around 20Million consoles sold between them, 66% of what the N64 sold in its entire lifetime.
 
Ben, your logic is out of place here at the new B3D. We want to act smug about our manufacturer of choice and you're taking that all away! o_O
 
What you dont seem to understand, Nintendo could give a rats arse about Marketshare, they only want to make thier own games and sell them on thier hardware, they have a strong enough following to do so, they have the ability to sell millions of copies of every game they put out, which is plenty of success. I'm sorry if you think what MS is doing is smart, but its not, they are just LUCKY to have billions to WASTE to get to second place, if they ever do.
 
Ben

Nintendo is sub-20% run rate in the US/EU right now. That's worse than the N64 managed at this point in its lifecycle. The other thing that I think you're forgetting is that the Dreamcast proved that sales of 10 million units were pretty easy to obtain these days, given the size of the market. The real test is getting to 20 million units.

The other issue is third party support. It's going to get tougher for Nintendo to get this support, now that they are trailing MS in the US/EU on a run-rate basis. This will make it even harder for them to appeal to the audience they need to expand their reach beyond their core demographic.

If you take out Japan, Gamecube is behind the Dreamcast at this point in its lifecycle, whereas Xbox is slightly ahead of where the Dreamcast was, has better third party software in the pipeline, and MS can absorb short-term losses more easily than Nintendo can.

Dropping to $99 is going to be pretty painful for Nintendo. MS will just sweep it under the rug so to speak.
 
Nintendo is sub-20% run rate in the US/EU right now.

As of November, they weren't(21% and rising). Do you have December's numbers?

That's worse than the N64 managed at this point in its lifecycle.

N64 was dropping marketshare at this point in its life cycle, not gaining. Not only that, but the tie in ratios were significantly smaller then they are with the Cube(not to mention far lower absolute numbers).

The other thing that I think you're forgetting is that the Dreamcast proved that sales of 10 million units were pretty easy to obtain these days, given the size of the market.

It took the DC two years. It took the GameCube ~one year. Time it took the PS2? ~One year.

The other issue is third party support. It's going to get tougher for Nintendo to get this support, now that they are trailing MS in the US/EU on a run-rate basis.

Two hundred games, give or take, right now. Take2/Rockstar is even putting out GC titles at this point. Who isn't on board now in terms of western developers? What major titles is the Cube missing out on that the others aren't? Splinter Cell may even be on the Cube by the end of '03. Who are the developers that aren't supporting the Cube? We had a poster on this board who works in the industry that claimed to have inside information last year that swore the GC was losing third party support, shortly before a slew of titles were announced(a great deal of which have shipped at this point). There is no major third party fallout.

If you take out Japan, Gamecube is behind the Dreamcast at this point in its lifecycle, whereas Xbox is slightly ahead of where the Dreamcast was, has better third party software in the pipeline, and MS can absorb short-term losses more easily than Nintendo can.

The GameCube isn't behind where the DC was, excluding Japan the Cube should have close to 8Million units right now(as I type this, not based on six week old numbers), about what the DC hit total.

Short term losses.....? Nintendo is making hundreds of millions of dollars(sometimes billions) each year on gaming alone. This is the most important element of this discussion. Nintendo is making truck loads of cash on the Cube right now as we speak. I'm not talking about revenue but profit.

What losses is Nintendo supposed to take? Their cost of producing the Cube has dropped below $150, but let's say it is in fact $150 and won't drop a cent for another six months. They could ship ten million units and cover it with the licensing fees they have already collected if they failed to sell another game. If they moved ten million consoles at $50 under cost they would only negate the licensing value of the titles they have sold. The rest of their income would still have them in the profitable range. If the Cube still cost them $150 and the price didn't drop and they moved twenty million units at $50 each they would need to sell 1.8 titles per Cube to break even just on the licensing revenue, ignoring the rest of the money they would make on their own games(subtracting $10 per unit to equalize for licensing). That's at $50 per Cube if it cost more to make then it does now and production costs did not drop.

Then you have cash reserves. Obviously MS is king of the hill here, but Nintendo easily slaughters Sony on this end, ignoring completely N's vastly superior profit margins that have yet to receed. The N64 turned Nintendo hefty profits, the GameCube is doing much better.

Dropping to $99 is going to be pretty painful for Nintendo. MS will just sweep it under the rug so to speak.

If Nintendo was willing to spend $2Billion(which they could afford, they have a lot more then that in reserve) they could give away 13Million Cubes. If they were willing to lose that much money then they could likely double that number relatively short term(factoring in revenue made from soft sales). Nintendo has the money, they simply aren't going to enter a spending war with MS, but that isn't even a real issue.

This IS a three player contest. The important thing is to get as many customers as each player can, that goes for Sony too. You think Sony would be happy finishing 1% ahead of MS who finished 1% ahead of Nintendo? Would MS rather have 20% of the market and double Nintendo's sales or 25% of the market and be neck and neck?

Nintendo has loads of money, they are making more of it right now on the Cube. The fact is that the Cube has had the strongest launch of any Nintendo set top console ever in any financial measure. As a business, that is what matters.
 
Well, you make some valid points and you've restored SOME of my confidence in the Cube, but you're wrong about Dreamcast. It shipped on 9.9.99 in the US and was dead on 1.31.01 and it sold 8 million units in the west. The Gamecube is closer to 7 million right now with only a little more time left to reach the DC total. That's not really that great.
 
Hogwash. DC barely sold 4 mil world wide its first year. Xmas season 2000 it moved just over 100,000 units and was outsold by PSone at near 10 to 1.

I would advise starting a new thread when real #s for xmas season 02 are in hand.
 
I have to say that it seems that Nintendo is faring much better now than the N64 did at this stage in its life. According to what I can see, Nintendo is on its way back up. I doubt Nintendo will give up any time in the next 10 years...

They do make a lot of profit out of their systems and games, and I can't see them as hurting in any way. Just because the Gamecube isn't #1 in sales does not mean that Nintendo is going to pull out. Just because Sega pulled out, doesn't mean Nintendo will as well.

I would be incredibly surprised if any of the 3 consoles pull out of the business any time soon.
 
you talk about Nintendos third party support like its so bad, it has much more than it did in the N64 era..

Capcom now has named 8 exclusive gamecube games and counting..
how many exclusives have they made for Xbox?
Square has announced several exclusive GC games, how many for Xbox?
Konamis Hideo Kojima is working on a GC exclusive, how many did they make for Xbox?(exclusives, not asking you to spout off the PS2 ports, and before you try it, MGS2 Substance is not exclusive, and is not much more than a port with an expansion included)

Nintendo is doing quite well, and everyone I know who owns one is more than satisfied, I personally am satisfied with all three systems these days..
and I dont think anyone is complaining.

and when you talk Market SHARE, you are talking percentage, Nintendos percentage is not the same, well, I am not a rocket scientist, but in the PSX/N64 era, there were only two in the race, adding another major contender lowers everyones percentage, its the numbers that count.
 
Some developers are indeed not releasing their announced games on Gamecube but their importance is questionable. Latest example is EA's Shox and Codemaster's Colin Mc Rae 3. There was a lenghty discussion about this on GA, and more titles have been mentioned but I forgot.

As for this year, GC run rate was varying from 11% to 22%, averaging at 18% at the end of november
 
More people have SegaGT in their homes right now than SMS, I believe.

I realise that you are refering to the fact that SegaGT is given away with most XBox consoles. Well firstly that doesn't constitute sales AFAICS, not within the context of the post you were replying to. The fact is the games that guy mentioned were faliures from a sales point of view.

Although I'd still like to see your reasoning behind thinking that SegaGT is in more homes then SMS just out of interest. SMS is also sold with most GameCubes. SMS was already well past 2 million sold just by itself, before it even went into the GameCube bundle.

And I honestly did enjoy SegaGT more than SMS.

Fine, you can have whatever opinion you want obviously. After all someone could say they enjoyed Daikatana more then then Halo or Half Life and you can't argue, because its his/her opinion.

Most people who enjoyed SMS either couldn't get enough of SM64 or are living off pure nostalgia. SMS is an average game at best IMO, SegaGT is above average.

Now this I can argue with. Who are you to make judgments on why others like a certain game? Don't be so arrogant.

In my own opinion SegaGT is an average game, and according to pretty much everyone, from people on messageboards to reviews, its not that much above average. But if some people think its excellent I'm not going to travialize that by trying to make excusses for why they like it.

As for SMS, I think SMS is an excellent game and guess what, pretty much everyone, from people on messageboards to reviews, agree's with me.

As for the topic of this thread. GameCube is in peril is it?

Why exactly?, because its in second place worldwide? Because Nintendo are making millions on it?.. something that MS can only dream of with XBox. Common, think about it.
 
As for the topic of this thread. GameCube is in peril is it?

Why exactly?, because its in second place worldwide? Because Nintendo are making millions on it?.. something that MS can only dream of with XBox. Common, think about it.

Anyone have the numbers on how much Nintendo is making on GC software? Sure they are making lots off of all the versions of the Gameboy software they sell. Production costs are probably much higher for all the high profile GC games but they don't sell well like some of the big hits on GBA.

XBox takes loses for many reasons. One big one is X-Box live. Microsoft is trying to establish itself as a permenant player when it comes to video games and a leader when it comes to online games.
 
As for SMS, I think SMS is an excellent game and guess what, pretty much everyone, from people on messageboards to reviews, agree's with me.
And the top selling albums in 2002 were all complete crap. Numbers do not translate into being right.

What most people think doesn't phase me, I'm a big boy and I can form my own opinions of games I own.

SMS, to me, was a pretty poorly executed (GCN is capable of much more) game with very little variation and ended up making me think I was playing a SM64 sequel where Mario goes on vacation. Hopefully they figure out how to do a real Mario game again with "Mario 128", but you never know. Maybe Shiggy lost his magic touch...
 
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