Is Bush weaseling out?

[Legion]

If that were to happen i hope that Bush and co do all that is in their power to undermine late term abortion legislation and afirmative action (legislated racism).

didnt the president sign legislation banning late term abortion this month?
Affirmitive action will only be reversed with a new supreme court justice. Hopefully a few of the more liberal elements retire.

later,
epic

yes he did but i want to make sure there will be a lot of red tape up to make it extremely difficult to overturn.

 

[epicstruggle]

yes he did but i want to make sure there will be a lot of red tape up to make it extremely difficult to overturn.

well the law is actually in limbo until the courts decide wether the law is constitutional or not. Until the supreme court decides we wont know if the law stands or not. Heres hoping it does.

later,
epic

 

[Silent_One]

epicstruggle wrote:

look natoma, everything that comes out of you mouth or that you type is either completly fabricated or biased beyond imagination. You hate bush as a rabid dog. Youll skew any and all facts to suit your needs. Its hopeless.

Thats reasonably true. let's look at the facts:

1.) Natoma wrote;

$15 Million: Value of a contract awarded to an American firm to build a cement factory in Iraq with taxpayer dollars
.

Fact: http://www.msnbc.com/news/991428.asp

A team of Army engineers came in June and July to identify what it would take to bring the facility to full production. They concluded that practically everything had to be overhauled. They proposed bringing in new parts from Germany and Romania, as well as heavy equipment to work the limestone quarry: four bulldozers, 20 dump trucks, five excavators, four forklifts and a crane at a total cost of $14 million. Nineteen electrical motors and other machinery for the production lines would cost $5.5 million. A laboratory for testing raw materials would cost $100,000. And so on. The final bill: $23 million. The assessment was sent to the local CPA office, which in turn sent it to Baghdad for authorization. It is still in the process.

$23 million vs. $15 million

2.) Natoma wrote:

$80,000: Amount an Iraqi businessman spent (using Saddam's confiscated funds) to build the same factory, after delays prevented the American firm from doing it.

Fact: http://www.msnbc.com/news/991428.asp

Meanwhile, to try to inspire the Iraqis, the military in July also gave the plant managers some seed money, $10,000 from a discretionary fund, and asked them to please try to do something, anything.....<snip>....Workers cleaned out the rubble and bought furniture and some other office equipment. That got them settled enough to figure out they could sell cement from their storehouses and to realize that there was still some money in the company’s old accounts, from which they secured $240,000.

$250K vs. $80K

3.) Natoma wrote:

That alone doesn't account for the vast disparity in costs. A large part of it are the labor costs (terrorism insurance is HUGE in these costs btw) of the american firm. Use Iraqis and the cost is easily cut by half.

Fact: local material costs have skyrocketed.

So the interim government was forced to begin importing hundreds of thousands of tons of the building material at great cost. Foreign cement now costs up to $150 a ton, while local cement is $60 a ton. Before the war, cement was $13 a ton. The interim government cited the rising cost of cement as the reason the cost of prisons was estimated at $50,000 per bed and why some earlier construction deals are being renegotiated for prices 20 percent higher. The problem became so critical that the interim government formed a special cement task force this summer.

Fact: Local labor is used in building in many projects. Natoma assumes local labor is not used in figuring the total costs of building a modern factory. I can find no link to indicate if that is the case.

Kellogg Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton Inc., which has the contract for supporting the military and interim government functions, hosts weekly meetings with Iraqi subcontractor candidates and anyone else who wants to attend.
Bechtel Corp., the main contractor for power plants, sanitation systems, schools, medical centers and others, said it has made several modifications to its policies to accommodate Iraqi companies. It has waived normal insurance requirements for subcontractors, given that hazard insurance pretty much does not exist in Iraq, and it has advanced funds to small contractors to work on schools. And it is putting companies through safety and environment training programs.
Francis Canavan, a Bechtel spokesman in Baghdad, said about 110 of the 149 Bechtel subcontracts have gone to local firms, providing employment for more than 40,000 Iraqi nationals.

4.) Natoma wrote:

Are we so condescending that we don't believe they could possibly get that factory working for $80K USD by going through cheaper channels that we don't have access to?

Not at all. We gave them the seed money afterall.

....the military in July also gave the plant managers some seed money, $10,000 from a discretionary fund, and asked them to please try to do something, anything.

And we were there to celerbrate at the plant reopening.

The day the plant reopened was one of great festivity — the mayor and the local military viceroy, Maj. Gen. David H. Petraeus, commander of the 101st Airborne Division, attended. All the workers and their families had cake and other sweets. Following tradition, the plant managers brought a black cow into the heart of the plant and slaughtered the animal for good luck. The fresh meat was given as a gift to the poorest workers.

Natoma wrote:

You are making the erroneous assumption that the Iraqis would purchase their material at prices that a company like Haliburton would deem appropriate when in fact they purchase materials mainly from other muslim nations in the region.

Please. I made no such assumptions. I clearly stated that I don't know (at the time) what the (assumed) $15 million costs intailed. Don't assume for me. And as for regional material prices, see above.
natoma wrote:

Again, you're assuming that all the Iraqis could do is rebuild the plant with matchsticks, playing cards, and silly putty.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/991428.asp

Meanwhile, the Sinjar Cement Factory is now churning out about 1,500 tons of cement each day, about half of its capacity, but slightly more than a year ago. “I am amazed,†said Abdul Ghani Yousef, the administrative manager. “It is even better than before.â€
But the second line is still down and needs to be fixed to help alleviate the cement shortage. Moreover, said Capt. John Gerald of the 431st Civil Affairs Battalion, the Iraqis’ work on the first line was impressive, but not a long-term solution. “It was a Band-Aid fix,†he said

As I said, Band-Aids
Natoma wrote:

But let's get down to details and state some clear "facts":

epicstruggle wrote:

we dont know the out put of the repaired cement factory compared to the old factory.

Well gee the it's the same factory. And not only that, but it wasn't working before it was repaired. So I'd say the productivity rate is near infinite wouldn't you say?

But in all seriousness, what does this have to do with anything? If you get 80% productivity out of a factory today and the productivity when it was new was 100%, does that change the fact that it is 80% today? Your "fact" isn't exactly relevant.

Sure his "facts" are relevent. It's your so-called"facts" all along that draw conclusions form your assumptions. You did not know the reopened plants output, but assumed it was aduqate enough. You assume local or regional material costs are cheaper when in fact they are not. You assume that American companys like Haliburton are overbilling based on a $!5 million price tag for a facotry when in fact the cost anaylsis came from the Army Core of Engineers.

As I said before you make statements as if their facts, to further your opinion. If you'd shoot-from-the-hip a little less, and were a less flippant you'd come off a lot better.

Now... having said all this, and after looking up some facts, I have to say that I agree with you on some of the things you said. It seems the cement factor at 50% production is a pretty good deal for $250K. And who knows maybe ithe other production line can be repaired and production up to 100% for a reasonable cost-

A few weeks ago, the workers received another visit from a team of foreigners who wanted to help. Some engineers from Japan offered to fly in, pay, house and feed some experts from Mitsubishi Cement Co. The occupation authority would only have to pay for the new parts. Their estimate of the final cost: $1 million.

 

[Natoma]

Buchanan and Reverend Falwell and Reverend Phelps and especially Pat Robertson, who called Islam a religion of the devil (all right after 9/11 btw), and General Boykins' recently exposed comment regarding his god being bigger than the god of islam, even though they're one and the same, for starters.

None of these people are in his administration. Again more fabrications and lies. Please name me one member of his administration. See you just love to strech the truth to the breaking point and then some.

Lets see if you can come up with a name.
later,
epic

I already gave you one. Reverend Falwell was, up until his disparaging comments about Muslims, one of Bush's Presidential Religious Advisors, and as such he had a powerful platform with which to speak from. Last time I checked, that position is part of the administration. What, you expected me to say the names Rice, Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld, or Rove? Well I'm sorry, but the administration goes beyond them.

After he made those comments, he "left" the administration. Though that usually means he was fired. Maybe if you knew more about the government that you are speaking about, you'd understand these things.

 

[Natoma]

even though they're one and the same, for starters.

You should leave the determination of who's who in religion to people who actually are involved. If a group of people want to say Allah is not the same as Yahweh, G-d, or the holy trinity, well...that's their perogative. You cannot define somebody's faith for them.

Who's trying to define anyone's faith? Muslims state that their god is the god of Abraham, and they call him Allah. Christians believe that their god is also the god of Abraham, and they call him God or Jesus or in some cases Jehovah. Jews believe their god is also the god of Abraham and they call him g-d or Yahweh or Jehovah.

So who's defining what now?

 

[RussSchultz]

Maybe if you knew more about the government that you are speaking about, you'd understand these things.

I had no idea there was a 'office of religious affairs', or a cabinet position of 'chief religious adviser'. What would I do without you to educate me?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Buchanan and Reverend Falwell and Reverend Phelps and especially Pat Robertson, who called Islam a religion of the devil (all right after 9/11 btw)...

And they are one in the same with Bush's faith?

Gee, we're not, say, lumping people together (like you accuse some of lumping "all muslim's together"), now, are we?

 

[RussSchultz]

Who's trying to define anyone's faith? Muslims state that their god is the god of Abraham, and they call him Allah. Christians believe that their god is also the god of Abraham, and they call him God or Jesus or in some cases Jehovah. Jews believe their god is also the god of Abraham and they call him g-d or Yahweh or Jehovah.

So who's defining what now?

If (some) Christians believe that Allah is actually satan, then that's what they believe, irrespective of what Muslims believe, or whatever the "ancestry" of the pantheon may be.

You, as an outsider, do not get to dictate what their beliefs are.

 

[Natoma]

Silent_One:

I can't link to my source for the $15 Million and $80K figures, nor the rest of the information regarding costs of material and labor. You'll have to pick up the November 10th Issue of Newsweek titled, "Bush's $87 Billion Mess". It's about 10 pages long.

You'll also want the Newsweek November 17th issue and the TIME November 17th issue.

 

[Natoma]

Maybe if you knew more about the government that you are speaking about, you'd understand these things.

I had no idea there was a 'office of religious affairs', or a cabinet position of 'chief religious adviser'. What would I do without you to educate me?

Who knows what you would do. Ralph Reed of the Christian Coalition held the same position in the Clinton Administration, amazingly, given his stated party affiliation.

 

[Natoma]

Buchanan and Reverend Falwell and Reverend Phelps and especially Pat Robertson, who called Islam a religion of the devil (all right after 9/11 btw)...

And they are one in the same with Bush's faith?

Gee, we're not, say, lumping people together (like you accuse some of lumping "all muslim's together"), now, are we?

What, they aren't christian? They don't go to church all the time? Hell two of them aren't Reverends? Hmmm......

 

[Natoma]

Who's trying to define anyone's faith? Muslims state that their god is the god of Abraham, and they call him Allah. Christians believe that their god is also the god of Abraham, and they call him God or Jesus or in some cases Jehovah. Jews believe their god is also the god of Abraham and they call him g-d or Yahweh or Jehovah.

So who's defining what now?

If (some) Christians believe that Allah is actually satan, then that's what they believe, irrespective of what Muslims believe, or whatever the "ancestry" of the pantheon may be.

You, as an outsider, do not get to dictate what their beliefs are.

So if I had a religious affiliation to all three that would somehow make my assertion that they are stating that their god is one and the same any different? Yea........

 

[Joe DeFuria]

What, they aren't christian? They don't go to church all the time? Hell two of them aren't Reverends? Hmmm......

Like I said...you wouldn't be lumping "all Chistians" together as one group in solidarity of ideas and faith, now would you? I mean, isn't that something that you "detest" about others?

 

[Natoma]

What, they aren't christian? They don't go to church all the time? Hell two of them aren't Reverends? Hmmm......

Like I said...you wouldn't be lumping "all Chistians" together as one group in solidarity of ideas and faith, now would you? I mean, isn't that something that you "detest" about others?

There's a difference between those of semantically differing faiths (Protestant vs Catholic for instance, both are christian) and those who completely go against the tenets of their faith (terrorists) and those who truly believe.

Surely you can see the difference.

 

[RussSchultz]

Maybe if you knew more about the government that you are speaking about, you'd understand these things.

I had no idea there was a 'office of religious affairs', or a cabinet position of 'chief religious adviser'. What would I do without you to educate me?

Who knows what you would do. Ralph Reed of the Christian Coalition held the same position in the Clinton Administration, amazingly, given his stated party affiliation.

Sorry, you're going to have to go further than that. I don't know what "position" he held. As far as I can tell, searching on www.whitehouse.gov for 'falwell' only brings up 2 press conferences both discussing the remarks he made.

No mention of any position in the administration. What is it? What cabinet and/or ministry does it fall into? Where can I read more about it?

 

[Joe DeFuria]

There's a difference between those of semantically differing faiths (Protestant vs Catholic for instance, both are christian) and those who completely go against the tenets of their faith (terrorists) and those who truly believe.

Surely you can see the difference.

No, please tell me what the difference is. Ask the terrorists if THEY believe they are going "against the tenets of their faith."

Ask me if I think Catholics are in many ways going against the tenets of "True Christianity," and I'll tell you yes.

It's just a matter of degree, which is of course subjective.

Plain and simple: your implication that Bush goes "against others of his own faith" is without basis or merit. Other Christians does not equate to others "of his faith."

 

[Natoma]

Maybe if you knew more about the government that you are speaking about, you'd understand these things.

I had no idea there was a 'office of religious affairs', or a cabinet position of 'chief religious adviser'. What would I do without you to educate me?

Who knows what you would do. Ralph Reed of the Christian Coalition held the same position in the Clinton Administration, amazingly, given his stated party affiliation.

Sorry, you're going to have to go further than that. I don't know what "position" he held. As far as I can tell, searching on www.whitehouse.gov for 'falwell' only brings up 2 press conferences both discussing the remarks he made.

No mention of any position in the administration. What is it? What cabinet and/or ministry does it fall into? Where can I read more about it?

Hmmm. I wasn't aware that whitehouse.gov stated all positions and members of each and every administration. As I said before, his position was Presidential Religious Advisor. Ralph Reed held that same position for Clinton. And Billy Graham held that same position for Ronald Reagan.

 

[Natoma]

There's a difference between those of semantically differing faiths (Protestant vs Catholic for instance, both are christian) and those who completely go against the tenets of their faith (terrorists) and those who truly believe.

Surely you can see the difference.

No, please tell me what the difference is. Ask the terrorists if THEY believe they are going "against the tenets of their faith."

Ask me if I think Catholics are in many ways going against the tenets of "True Christianity," and I'll tell you yes.

It's just a matter of degree, which is of course subjective.

Plain and simple: your implication that Bush goes "against others of his own faith" is without basis or merit. Other Christians does not equate to others "of his faith."

If you're going to make that statement, then there is no such thing as Christianity and no one is of the same faith anywhere. Why? Because your beliefs are slightly different than someone else's beliefs, simply because you are an individual and have your own slant on what you read and hear in the bible and in church.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

If you're going to make that statement, then there is no such thing as Christianity and no one is of the same faith anywhere.

Not at all. You seem to ignore my statement of it being a matter of degree.

I'm surprised you haven't "praised" Bush for not agreeing with the terrorists themselves...after all, they are all of the same "faith in the God of Abraham", correct? Please.

Why? Because your beliefs are slightly different than someone else's beliefs, simply because you are an individual and have your own slant on what you read and hear in the bible and in church.

Natoma, I can also make my own judgement about whether I feel "anyone else's" personal beliefs are consistent with my own. I believe Catholics are Christians, Natoma, but we do not share the same faith.

 

[RussSchultz]

Hmmm. I wasn't aware that whitehouse.gov stated all positions and members of each and every administration. As I said before, his position was Presidential Religious Advisor. Ralph Reed held that same position for Clinton. And Billy Graham held that same position for Ronald Reagan.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm skeptical that this position exists, and is part of the "administration".

I can't find it anywhere on google. Their position is not noted on any of their biographies.