Iraq and MONEY!

[Natoma]

LOL sulfur, well sulfur is a solid, and solids don't float in the atmosphere sorry guys you are wrong.

SO2 is what you are thinking of and it is the product of combustion of sulfur this reacts with water and form acid. In addition HNO3 (nitric acid) is formed from N2O5 and other nitrous oxides in the air.

Yes natoma you were right sulfuric acid has a pH that is <1, actually about -2 I think

Acid rain is actually a mix, and listen sulfur can be pretty much removed from gas so those gas guzzlers won't produce any acid rain... you can still complain though and should for other reasons.

And btw byte was right about one thing, rain is acidic and is going to keep being acidic unless we destroy the atmosphere (5.6 is the average unpolluted pH of rainwater).

Yes I was referring to sulfur dioxide. That's what is released into the atmosphere mainly by power plants and other factories. I think the point remains that acid rain as we know it has a very low pH that is in line with the pH of the acid concoction in our stomachs. I would not want that raining down on me.

But I wasn't saying that rain isn't naturally slightly acidic. We just shouldn't make it moreso to the point where it becomes a danger to ourselves and our environment.

 

[Sxotty]

The reason rain is acidic naturally if anyone is wonering is carbonic acid is formed by reaction of CO2 and H20 in the atmosphere. This is going to continue unless we really bork it up.

 

[RussSchultz]

And without acid rain, we wouldn't have wonderful caverns to spelunk in.

 

[Natoma]

Yes yes we all remember earth sciences class.

 

[ByteMe]

LOL sulfur, well sulfur is a solid, and solids don't float in the atmosphere sorry guys you are wrong.

SO2 is what you are thinking of and it is the product of combustion of sulfur this reacts with water and form acid. In addition HNO3 (nitric acid) is formed from N2O5 and other nitrous oxides in the air.

Yes natoma you were right sulfuric acid has a pH that is <1, actually about -2 I think

Acid rain is actually a mix, and listen sulfur can be pretty much removed from gas so those gas guzzlers won't produce any acid rain... you can still complain though and should for other reasons.

And btw byte was right about one thing, rain is acidic and is going to keep being acidic unless we destroy the atmosphere (5.6 is the average unpolluted pH of rainwater).

A negitive 2 pH? WTH? Everything I have read has rain at 6.5. By nature rain can NOT be unpolluted (it requires pollution to be rain). I think the 5.6 is the current average of rain.

 

[ByteMe]

The reason rain is acidic naturally if anyone is wonering is carbonic acid is formed by reaction of CO2 and H20 in the atmosphere. This is going to continue unless we really bork it up.

Way OT but carbonic acid is a very interesting substance. It is the only acid that is not a salt. Anyone here work in the corrossion industry?

 

[Humus]

With the constant demand for electricity, it looks as if we can never rid ourselves of our need for coal-fired plants.

Well, you can use nuclear power plants instead. A far better alternative IMHO.

 

[ByteMe]

With the constant demand for electricity, it looks as if we can never rid ourselves of our need for coal-fired plants.

Well, you can use nuclear power plants instead. A far better alternative IMHO.

I agree, and then push R&D for fussion to the hilt. But you realize many of the enviromentalists hate nuclear. I think they want mankind to go back to living in mud huts with small campfires.

 

[Sxotty]

The reason rain is acidic naturally if anyone is wonering is carbonic acid is formed by reaction of CO2 and H20 in the atmosphere. This is going to continue unless we really bork it up.

Way OT but carbonic acid is a very interesting substance. It is the only acid that is not a salt. Anyone here work in the corrossion industry?

Salt: An ionic compound. CO3 (2-) carbonate and ion with negative 2 charge. Now explain how you classify H2CO3 as not a salt, and classify H2SO4 as a salt.


There are many acids that would not be classified as a salt (at least according to your definition), such as acetic acid (vinegar). And if you read what I wrote pure sulfuric acid has a negative pH that is what I said, not that acid rain does. If anything falling from the sky had a pH like that heaven help us. 5.6->3 cause all kinds of problems 5.6-> -2 would be insane, not to mention it is a logarithmic scale so it would be 400 times more acidic versus 40,000,000 times more acidic . Fun huh?

And it doesn't requie pollution to rain, if there was a temperature gradient it would work too. I mean that the amount of water as a gas that can be in a pure atmosphere (if there was such a thing) is proportional to temperature.

 

[Grall]

Are you wanting to argue that acid rain is not how mother nature cleans the air?

Yeah, I am wanting to argue that, because the TERM "acidic rain" was created to SPECIFICALLY MEAN RAIN WITH UNNATURALLY LOW pH LEVELS, you wannabe fudmeister.

To somehow try and pretend that it suddenly encompasses all rain is just BS.

If mankind did not exist, rain would have a pH of 6.5. That is what I mean by mother natures balance.

So where in the context of our discussion does that statement fit? Considering there being quite a few human beings on planet Earth and all...?

You need to read up on chemistry more. I would suggest looking into Chlorides/Sulfates/Nitrates as a start (as it pertains to our atomsphere).

Thank you, I read chemistry for six years in school. I can do WITHOUT the condescending attitude though.

What I said was correct. Your ignorance does nothing more than try and scare people.

Ignorance? Rofl. Are you DENYING that fossil fuels have exactly the effects on our atmosphere - and hence the rain - as I stated? Nearly all fossil fuels contain varying amounts of sulphur ("natural" gas might be an exception, though some trace amounts might be dissolved in the gas mix). Large-scale burning of stuff (in engines, furnaces etc) also produces nitrous oxides, which in addition to producing extra acidicy in our rain, also over-fertilizes ground and waterways.

So the score's two-zilch for me, wannabe fudmeister. Care for another try or are you ready to throw in the towel yet?


*G*

 

[Natoma]

No environmentalists don't hate nuclear power. Environmentalists hate nuclear waste. Nuclear Fission will forever be a problem because we have no credible way of containing the waste products. Putting all that waste into ground containers just isn't a good solution.

Nuclear fusion on the other hand has no dangerous waste products. The difficult part is creating a sustained and stable reaction.

 

[Natoma]

There are many acids that would not be classified as a salt (at least according to your definition), such as acetic acid (vinegar). And if you read what I wrote pure sulfuric acid has a negative pH that is what I said, not that acid rain does. If anything falling from the sky had a pH like that heaven help us. 5.6->3 cause all kinds of problems 5.6-> -2 would be insane, not to mention it is a logarithmic scale so it would be 400 times more acidic versus 40,000,000 times more acidic . Fun huh?

Indeed. I wouldn't want acid rain with pH 3 falling on my head.

And it doesn't requie pollution to rain, if there was a temperature gradient it would work too. I mean that the amount of water as a gas that can be in a pure atmosphere (if there was such a thing) is proportional to temperature.

He probably means the fact that in order for water droplets to coalesce, there usually requires dust particles that have a negative charge in order to draw the droplets together.

 

[Humus]

Here in Sweden - a country that does not use fossil fuels to any greater degree for energy production purposes, we have literally tens of thousands of acidic lakes that are either dead or dying from a biological diversity standpoint. The lakes are very clear and pretty, but they're basically just pools of water with very little activity going on in them.

For example. the acidic water draws out aluminium from the soil. Fish swim in the water and extrude ammonia from their gills (a natural process). The ammonia reacts with the aluminium, forming a sticky aluminium compound on the gills. The fish suffocates and dies.

I think you're being overdramatic and exaggerating quite a bit here. We got 90,000 lakes in Sweden. Of them 17,000 are considered acidic. Of these 8,000 are naturally acidic. Most lakes have been improving since the 70s, and the 25,000 lakes at that time is now down to 17,000. Also, most of the acidic lakes are small lakes. Also, there are no dead lakes, not even in the most acidic areas. Some have a reduced fauna, that's for sure, but it's hardly as horrible as you make it out to be.

http://www.naturvardsverket.se/index.php3?main=/dokument/fororen/kalka/forsur/refsjo.html

 

[ByteMe]

Salt: An ionic compound. CO3 (2-) carbonate and ion with negative 2 charge. Now explain how you classify H2CO3 as not a salt, and classify H2SO4 as a salt.


There are many acids that would not be classified as a salt (at least according to your definition), such as acetic acid (vinegar). And if you read what I wrote pure sulfuric acid has a negative pH that is what I said, not that acid rain does. If anything falling from the sky had a pH like that heaven help us. 5.6->3 cause all kinds of problems 5.6-> -2 would be insane, not to mention it is a logarithmic scale so it would be 400 times more acidic versus 40,000,000 times more acidic . Fun huh?

And it doesn't requie pollution to rain, if there was a temperature gradient it would work too. I mean that the amount of water as a gas that can be in a pure atmosphere (if there was such a thing) is proportional to temperature.

Your definition is wrong.

salt=chemical compound (other than water) formed by a chemical reaction between an acid and a base.

A salt that has neither hydrogen (H) nor hydroxyl (OH) in its formula, e.g., sodium chloride (NaCl), is called a normal salt. A salt that has hydrogen in its formula, e.g., sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), is called an acid salt. A salt that has hydroxyl in its formula, e.g., basic lead nitrate (Pb[OH]NO3), is called a basic salt.

It is the only acid that is NOT a salt.

Hydrochloric acid secreted by stomach lining is a pH of 1 (but I have also seen 2 printed)


*edit* I forgot about the "super" acids (thanks). My stuff never needs to get into that. Have you read much about them and the conditions required?

 

[ByteMe]

Yeah, I am wanting to argue that, because the TERM "acidic rain" was created to SPECIFICALLY MEAN RAIN WITH UNNATURALLY LOW pH LEVELS, you wannabe fudmeister.

To somehow try and pretend that it suddenly encompasses all rain is just BS.

So where in the context of our discussion does that statement fit? Considering there being quite a few human beings on planet Earth and all...?

Thank you, I read chemistry for six years in school. I can do WITHOUT the condescending attitude though.

Ignorance? Rofl. Are you DENYING that fossil fuels have exactly the effects on our atmosphere - and hence the rain - as I stated? Nearly all fossil fuels contain varying amounts of sulphur ("natural" gas might be an exception, though some trace amounts might be dissolved in the gas mix). Large-scale burning of stuff (in engines, furnaces etc) also produces nitrous oxides, which in addition to producing extra acidicy in our rain, also over-fertilizes ground and waterways.

So the score's two-zilch for me, wannabe fudmeister. Care for another try or are you ready to throw in the towel yet?


*G*

First off grall, you overstate anything that helps your enviromentalist/anti-capitalist cause. Just being an "anti-capitalist" shows your just a waste of time. But I am glad that once again you prove that it requires no musical talent to be always harping on something.

 

[Sxotty]

Byteme do you know the formula for acetic acid?

It is CH3COOH, now carbonic acid H2CO3, tell me how you define one as a salt and the other not?


WRT super acids, that is just a term to designate that they are so acidic that the acidity is underreported by a large margin if tested in water. This is b/c H2SO4->H3O+ and HSO4-, so the actual species that is acidic is hydronium, and hydronium is much less acidic than the original H2SO4 was. In fact the term super acid simply means as or more acidic than pure H2SO4 and SO3 (this is called oleum). Other super acids are HSO3F, and a micture of H2SO4. Sulfuric acid is actually one of the most used chemicals on earth in tons anyway.

 

[pax]

Wasnt the black forest in Germany destroyed by acid rain? I dont think we can escape the economic imperative of coal fired power plants. They can be made to be much cleaner tho.

 

[Fred]

The bit about having no reliable way to get rid of nuclear waste is just completely ignorant

Btw, I used to guzzle hydrochloric acid to impress my Organic chem students who I was TAing. Hint: you want to consider Molarity in your discussion to make any sense whatsoever.

 

[Natoma]

If you consider putting nuclear waste into the ground a reliable storage, then call me ignorant. When the waste comes to your state and they want to put it underground around your town, we'll see how accepting you are, especially if the concrete containment fails. Nuclear waste has a half life of thousands of years. You honestly want to place a bet that our concrete lasts that long? Or is that just ignorance again? :?

 

[pax]

Just a side question but is radioactive waste more or less radiocative than the uranium that was mined... and could it maybe be returned to the mines where they got it in the first place?