Iraq and MONEY!

[ByteMe]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/10/sprj.irq.main/index.html


The Pentagon plans to bar France, Germany and other countries that opposed the U.S.-led war in Iraq from competing for $18.6 billion worth of contracts in the Mideast nation's reconstruction efforts.

An attachment lists 63 countries eligible for contracts to improve Iraq's ravaged infrastructure -- including electrical, water, transportation, housing and health systems -- as well as to arm the new Iraqi army and restore oil production.

Noticeably absent from the list are France, Germany, Russia, Canada and China -- countries that strongly opposed the war.






Did we not see that coming? I got to laugh.

 

[Willmeister]

Note quite.

White House spokesman listed French, German and Russian companies doing major work in Iraq right now.

This is just political posturing. Bush can't beg for international help with one hand, and then marginalize the two largest EU economies and Russia to boot with the other.

 

[ByteMe]

This is just political posturing. Bush can't beg for international help with one hand, and then marginalize the two largest EU economies and Russia to boot with the other.

I agreee. It does send a strong message tho. I just wonder how far countries like france will take it. The article says they are looking into the "legal" issues (France).

In my mind I picture a bunch of little frenchmen laywers in a court room bitching up a storm. Just makes me laugh.

 

[Willmeister]

French official was on CBC and apparently said that Wolfowitz was 'out of his mind' if he thought this would make other nations cave in. This is nothing new; it was mentioned before and this will probably will have the OPPOSITE effect. It will reinforce the determination of other nations to NOT cave in to the USA especially when the spokeman said that circumstances could change if nations became more involved.

It also doesn't even make fiscal sense. Why should one exclude bidders who may provide the better bang for the buck?

Also, John Manley, former deputy PM here in Canada, says that Canada could now question the idea of 'aid' over this. And Canada planned to send $300 million.

 

[ByteMe]

Maybe, but then they don't get a "piece of the pie". I say screw'em.


*edit*

Another example of the USA doing the "right" thing regardless of what a few European countries think. It is nice to be this powerful.

 

[Willmeister]

Don't confuse being petty with being powerful.

Again, US taxpayers should be livid, especially in a period of expanding federal deficits.

 

[ByteMe]

Don't confuse being petty with being powerful.

Again, US taxpayers should be livid, especially in a period of expanding federal deficits.

Well, I expect that many US companies will get the contracts. So the government will be spending money that comes back here.

And then there is the idea that we have got to let the disagreeing countries (France, Germany, Russia) understand that we are not going to eat their crap without dishing some back.

Twenty or so years from now I will bet I will have the chance while sitting in a bar to give some frenchmen a load of crap about "you see.... we were RIGHT!". Then I'll have to beat them with my cain.

 

[Mariner]

This is just political posturing. Bush can't beg for international help with one hand, and then marginalize the two largest EU economies and Russia to boot with the other.

Well actually, the UK is the second largest economy in the EU.

So you actually mean to say:

Bush can't beg for international help with one hand , and then marginalise the two largest EU economies (who weren't involved in the Iraq conflict) and Russia to boot with the other.

 

[Willmeister]

One thing people should remember is that Perle said months ago that Iraqis would have final say on who gets contracts, and that the Iraqis would decide which friends to reward. Only talk-radio freaks who pushed this 'feel good' lunacy bought into it. Iraqis didn't even have final say on even their appointed officials... Not that it came as a surprise to many of us...

 

[Clashman]

Speaking of handing Iraqi control over to Iraqis, it seems as though the CPA had a hand in shelving this

 

[PatrickL]

Guys, if you want to know why france germany and other just does not care, make a little research about gulf war in 91, and how were distributed the contracts after the end of the war.

Theses countries got nothing but craps and they were involved in the war, they just can't have less now and they saved a lot

 

[ByteMe]

The CNN pole has about 66% of Americans supporting the decision.

 

[Willmeister]

American taxpayers SHOULD be able to decide who gets what contract. They paid for it.

As for the UK being the second, by going with GDP numbers, the UK is number 3 in Europe after France and Germany.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/49/61/15360253.PDF

Guys, if you want to know why france germany and other just does not care, make a little research about gulf war in 91, and how were distributed the contracts after the end of the war.

Same happened with Canadian firms. Any surprise really? I'm shocked how some people were ... shocked ... at the announcement today...

 

[Mariner]

As for the UK being the second, by going with GDP numbers, the UK is number 3 in Europe after France and Germany.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/49/61/15360253.PDF

[Shrug] Depends where you get your figures from, I suppose:

http://devdata.worldbank.org/extern...y=GBR&CCODE=GBR&CNAME=United+Kingdom&PTYPE=CP

http://devdata.worldbank.org/extern...edCountry=FRA&CCODE=FRA&CNAME=France&PTYPE=CP

With the figures you link to, if you consider the exchange rate in relation to US$ at the time the UK is higher as is the adjusted Per Capita rate.

Anyway, please feel free to continue with the rest of your discussion as this is really irrelevant to that.

 

[Barnabas]

I really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Those who fight get their share of the treasure, those who abstain don't. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[pax]

Well the treasure in this case is virtually all us taxpayers money. So even Iraqis might not have a right to it. If you ask me tho itd be good to hire iraqis to put them to work. But until Iraq pays its own way its understandable that us might want to limit the good contracts to itself.

Id only be ticked if this was Iraqi money being given to us corps without a valid bidding process... which isnt applicable here. Whats happening is merely us taxpayers money being given to us corps without a valid bidding process. So I dont really care all that much .

 

[Willmeister]

I really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Those who fight get their share of the treasure, those who abstain don't. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

That's not the type of childish reply one expects of responsible adults. Bush really has changed the tone of Washington to the point where they look really childish.

A small list of things Bush just had to say to head off this whole diplomatic mess:

a) "It's no big deal. It's only $20 billion. They're crying over pennies,"
b) "Perle misspoke himself when he claimed that Iraqis would decide who were friends to reward and those who weren't," and
c) "American taxpayers can spend it however they like."

 

[Sabastian]

I really don't understand what the fuss is all about. Those who fight get their share of the treasure, those who abstain don't. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

That's not the type of childish reply one expects of responsible adults. Bush really has changed the tone of Washington to the point where they look really childish.

A small list of things Bush just had to say to head off this whole diplomatic mess:

a) "It's no big deal. It's only $20 billion. They're crying over pennies,"
b) "Perle misspoke himself when he claimed that Iraqis would decide who were friends to reward and those who weren't," and
c) "American taxpayers can spend it however they like."

What is juvenile is too expect to be rewarded for something you disapproved of from the beginning. Sounds like sour grapes too me. We did not risk anything in the liberation of Iraq even opposed it in its entirety. Now in the aftermath, like spoiled children, wondering why we are not getting any treats for doing nothing to have earned them. The whole notion that countries that opposed the action should receive some sort of benefit from the rebuilding of Iraq is quite simply pathetic. Bush is not being childish at all here it is the whining coming from other countries that are excluded (and should be I might add) that rings in my ears as being childish, it is bordering on sickening. That is childishness incarnate.

 

[Willmeister]

Don't be too proud of Canada's heroic stance. It was a CLASSIC example of the Liberals 'say one thing, do the other.' Despite Chretien getting up in Parliment saying that Canada would not be involved as a matter of principle, it turns out he may have arbitrarily redeployed our navy from it's Parliment-approved mission for the UN to allowing the US to use them to protect their carriers. Our forces actually BECAME part of the 'Coalition of the Sorta Willing Just Don't Let Our Voters Know About It.' It has been said that we had over 1,300 navy personnel basically attached to the US navy without Parlimentary approval, and that doesn't include the Canadian personnel helping to plan the Iraqi invasion down in Florida before they moved on to Qatar...

I'm still looking into these allegations, but given Chretien's past history, it wouldn't surprise me if it were true. I actually DREAD Paul Martin in the PMO now. Actual dread. Though the disintegration of the new conservative party has lifted my spirits. This is really unrelated so I'm not going into that here.

 

[Sxotty]

Don't confuse being petty with being powerful.

Again, US taxpayers should be livid, especially in a period of expanding federal deficits.

This is a silly statement, there is plenty of different countries to bid. It is our money, we can do what we want with it.

Iraq's money will go to whoever they want. This is not just countries who opposed the war though, it is countries that would not work with the aftermath either.

In addition this is really nothing new and has gone on in the past. For example, China has made a decision to import european goods to a greater extent than american goods, this is because they are pissed at us, and sure it makes us mad but what are we going to do about it? Nothing except complain.

edit:

And if Canada did all that you said, perhaps they should bring that up, and then they would have a chance to bid as well.


On the news hours with jim lerher last night the quote was something like

"the other countries are just trying to push up to the trough now that the money is out there" pretty aplicable. I do not disagree that the actions of the bush administration in hiring haliburton and their subsequent actions were deplorable, but hopefully this time in the biding things will actually get done.