Innovation this Generation
- Thread starter Johnny Awesome
- Start date
jarrod said:
I certainly don't have an issue with someone calling into question my opinions or statements especially if I've posted them to a public forum.
jarrod said:Superficial parallels it is then I guess.
If you pull back far enough you can relate anything. Space Invaders and Halo are both essentially about shooting aliens, I guess the games are fundamentally related in concept?
Absolutely true and part of my reason for posting what I did. We can boil down many game concepts into Pong if we tried hard enough (analogous to the argument that only 7 great works of literature exist and all else borrow from them). Heck, we could say Pong borrows from Tennis which borrows from Badminton etc till we end up with cavemen throwing stones at each other.
Therefore topics such as these, though as thought-provoking they may be, are really exercises in futility.
jarrod said:
Admittedly it's a line and where one chooses to draw the line is entirely personal. But let me delve deeper into the similarities.
-Both you control many entities who do your bidding.
-You are required to figure out (puzzles) what that bidding is.
-You are required to manage your resources (Pikmin & Lemmings)
-Your entities have several ways of interacting with the environment and it's up to you to figure out the right combination.
-Both have levels (you disagree with this below but I don't as I see obvious levels in the different areas you visit).
Oh, and both have two syllables in their name.
jarrod said:Also, you're slightly off as Pikmin isn't really level based... though I suppose pulling back enough, you could make a related case there too... it could go "all objectives are really the same, you're doing something to achieve something".
Please elucidate on the differing game mechanics and design so I can see your point clearer.
Beside being the first online console RPG, Phantasy Star Online's game design was innovative for enabling the cooperation among several players from separate parts of the world simultaenously in an action-based game environment through an effective, multi-layered language tranlsation and communication system. Later games would follow on its idea of melding together a system of hotkey emoticons and phrases, common expression indices, and word translation expressed in unobtrusive text bubbles.
Crazy Taxi was unique for offering stunt-based driving set in a free-roaming 3D world, and it delivered it with polished speed, smoothness, and physics. There've been many games that've followed in its lead.
The Typing of the Dead, with its intense action, played pretty distinctly from other typing entertainment software of the time, and its style, sense of humor, and integrated typing tutor set it apart. The game enjoyed some cult success and attention and has since spawned some similar games.
Crazy Taxi was unique for offering stunt-based driving set in a free-roaming 3D world, and it delivered it with polished speed, smoothness, and physics. There've been many games that've followed in its lead.
The Typing of the Dead, with its intense action, played pretty distinctly from other typing entertainment software of the time, and its style, sense of humor, and integrated typing tutor set it apart. The game enjoyed some cult success and attention and has since spawned some similar games.
Nick Laslett
Regular
Eyetoy: Play and Singstar should both be there.
They brought to the mainstream console audience two new genres.
Gran Turismo 3 had a couple of innovations that get over looked. It allowed you to ilink 6 consoles togther for LAN style racing on a console.
You could also ilink 6 consoles and create a much larger field of vision using the different camera settings. I tried it once and it is an amazing experience to be able to look in every direction and see a different perspective from the car window. The last thing GT3 did was accurately model racing in the wet. This might have been attempted before, but I think the implementation in GT3 went much further than any previous attempt.
The Pressure sensitive buttons on the PS2 are an overlooked innovation. Lots of games use them. In the Bouncer the harder you press the buttons the harder you hit someone. It GT3 the harder you push the buttons the harder you break or accelerate. In MGS2 harder push the quicker and noiser you do things.
MGS2 has to been in the list. The innovations are too many to mention. It was the first next generation game, the level of immersion and interaction with the environment was unrivalled at the time.
SSX - This game created the tricks for boost concept that has been used every where since.
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time: The rewind system. Very well integrated into the game.
Manhunter: A sick game, but use of headset and sound in single player game?
They brought to the mainstream console audience two new genres.
Gran Turismo 3 had a couple of innovations that get over looked. It allowed you to ilink 6 consoles togther for LAN style racing on a console.
You could also ilink 6 consoles and create a much larger field of vision using the different camera settings. I tried it once and it is an amazing experience to be able to look in every direction and see a different perspective from the car window. The last thing GT3 did was accurately model racing in the wet. This might have been attempted before, but I think the implementation in GT3 went much further than any previous attempt.
The Pressure sensitive buttons on the PS2 are an overlooked innovation. Lots of games use them. In the Bouncer the harder you press the buttons the harder you hit someone. It GT3 the harder you push the buttons the harder you break or accelerate. In MGS2 harder push the quicker and noiser you do things.
MGS2 has to been in the list. The innovations are too many to mention. It was the first next generation game, the level of immersion and interaction with the environment was unrivalled at the time.
SSX - This game created the tricks for boost concept that has been used every where since.
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time: The rewind system. Very well integrated into the game.
Manhunter: A sick game, but use of headset and sound in single player game?
the VMU was a fantastic idea. especialy later when you could create your own VMU content on your pc, upload it to a web page, and download it to the VMU using the DC web browser. i once created a complete animated star trek episode for VMU that was about 4-5 minutes long. it had tons of repeated frames and i even used the poor response time to help smooth out the animation because things would ghost so bad.
but the GBA<->GC connectivity is really a bit differant. the concepts that VMU was originaly designed to be used for were never fully matured. neither was the NGP<->DC link. nintendo took the VMU idea and crafted a few very solid ideas of thier own. they even convinced squareenix (FFCC), namco (pac-man Vs), and capcom (zenda:FS) that they had to make games that REQUIRED the GBA<->GC connection. if not innovation because of the content created, it surely is one of the most innovative marketing techniques.
another missed innovation is the e-reader. you could add content to games like SMB3, pokemon, and with the link animal crossing. and on the marketing side nintendo ported quite a few NES games to it, sold them for less than $5, then they turned them into carts and sold them again for $20.
microsoft had it's fare share of hardware innovation this round as well. the break-away controller cabes are brilliant, for example. not to mention the fact that the controllers cabes actualy are long enough to span a real living room (unlike the measly cables for the GC controller). the HDD included in the system, so no memory card is needed. using industry standard networking ports was new, too. previous systems could link (psx, SS) but all required propriatary cables that were outragiously priced. on the software side there's downloadable content, and live arcade.
perhaps i have a bias against sony. when i try to think of innovation from them (that hasn't already been mentioned, eyetoy and whatnot) all i can think of is how they constantly remove features from the ps2 (like i-link ports and the HDD bay) and few people take notice.
but the GBA<->GC connectivity is really a bit differant. the concepts that VMU was originaly designed to be used for were never fully matured. neither was the NGP<->DC link. nintendo took the VMU idea and crafted a few very solid ideas of thier own. they even convinced squareenix (FFCC), namco (pac-man Vs), and capcom (zenda:FS) that they had to make games that REQUIRED the GBA<->GC connection. if not innovation because of the content created, it surely is one of the most innovative marketing techniques.
another missed innovation is the e-reader. you could add content to games like SMB3, pokemon, and with the link animal crossing. and on the marketing side nintendo ported quite a few NES games to it, sold them for less than $5, then they turned them into carts and sold them again for $20.
microsoft had it's fare share of hardware innovation this round as well. the break-away controller cabes are brilliant, for example. not to mention the fact that the controllers cabes actualy are long enough to span a real living room (unlike the measly cables for the GC controller). the HDD included in the system, so no memory card is needed. using industry standard networking ports was new, too. previous systems could link (psx, SS) but all required propriatary cables that were outragiously priced. on the software side there's downloadable content, and live arcade.
perhaps i have a bias against sony. when i try to think of innovation from them (that hasn't already been mentioned, eyetoy and whatnot) all i can think of is how they constantly remove features from the ps2 (like i-link ports and the HDD bay) and few people take notice.
Well not exactly. In Pikmin you control Olimar who can then give direction to the Pikmin. In Lemmings you have no direct control over the Lemmings however, you indirectly set out a path by assigning attributes/abilities rather than issuing direct command. Basically, Pikmin go wherever you tell them to, Lemmings don't.Ty said:
Well, this is also where the games really diverge from each other. Truthfully, Pikmin's exploratory puzzle solving shares more in common with Zelda or Metroid than Lemmings' rather forward moving obstacle courses. Probably because Lemmings at it's core is a puzzle game while Pikmin is more of an adventure game.Ty said:
The Pikmin are your resources yes, though in Lemmings it's really movesets that require resource management. Lemmings is more along the lines of a game like Chu-Chu Rocket than Pikmin.Ty said:
But the mechanics of such interaction and overall scope of the games are fundamentally different. Super Mario Bros and the Legend of Zelda are both basically about navigating a world in some sort of order, powering up and saving a Princess... but exectution is dramatically different. Again, most of your comparisons are pulled back, they all basically come down to "cute little creatures" or "puzzle solving" with no real meat in directly relating the games.Ty said:
The worlds vistited aren't "levels" in the same sense though, they don't have an end. I could see an argument made for each day being a "level" or maybe each ship piece, but the environments themselves don't really qualify at all.Ty said:
BARF!Ty said:Oh, and both have two syllables in their name.
Well, it goes to the basic game design of each. As I've said earlier, Lemmings at it's core is a puzzle game. You assign "attributes" to a specific number of Lemmings, allowing a required amount to self navigate the set levels to each conclusion. In Pikmin, you control Olimar you has a set time period to recover a certain amount of ship parts to go home, which is done by controlling and managing the native Pikmin populations and exploring the worlds to find these parts. Pikmin is more of a genre bender too, incorperating fairly standard RTS mechanics with Nintendo style exploratory puzzle solving world design. Beyond the most basic of concept comparisons, the games aren't at all alike. In actual practice, they're clearly very different even... how much time have you spent with both?Ty said:
Actually Pikachu, Seaman and another cancelled 64DD voice recognition game called Teo all developed in parallel. Likely because all three developers (Ambrella, Vivarium & Marigul) were all fairly close. Interestingly too, all three are now working exclusively with Nintendo.Reznor007 said:
I'd say the extremely fluid animation and cinema-esue artstyle and presentation were something that haden't really been done before. Game design though was essentially an Ocarina of Time retread.Sonic said:
Though I should point out that I'm not a proponent of presentation being innovation in gaming, I'm more of a mechanics guy myself. Bringing up TWW was only to counter Ico, another game with stunningly fresh presentation and stale game design.
Capcom Production Studio 2 co-developed 4 swords....
http://games.ign.com/objects/568/568094.html?fromint=1
you're right about PM:vs, though
one of the first means that it might not have been THE first.
IGN's wrong, the game started at Nintendo R&D2 before EAD took it over, merging it with their own Tetra's Trackers project. The only possible Capcom involvement would've been some of the sprite sets being reused from Four Swords GBA, but the GBC/GBA Zeldas were done by Capcom Studio 1, not Studio 2.see colon said:
But it wasn't at all unigue in terms of that. There'd already been other similar products on the market.see colon said:
marconelly!
Veteran
Konami's Karaoke Revolution deserves to be on that list more than most other games, and so do many SCEJ developed games like Mojib Ribbon, Flipnic, Vib Ripple or Fantavision (and tons of others less known games). To say that Sony is one of the least innovative dev teams is a serious insult (or just plain ignorance) for the SCEJ development, IMO.
Games like MSR or Sudeki, in my opinion are innovative only if you really, REALLY try to believe they are (might as well put tons of other games there that innovated a feature or two here and there - Mark of Kri deserves to be on the list by that logic *for sure*).
Games like MSR or Sudeki, in my opinion are innovative only if you really, REALLY try to believe they are (might as well put tons of other games there that innovated a feature or two here and there - Mark of Kri deserves to be on the list by that logic *for sure*).