In response to recent events

[Hellbinder]

With all due respect to everyone at this site. This points out the very reason why I have personal issues with Nvidia. Everyone on the internet can see that B3D puts out the most technical most ballaced most Non-ra ra ra previews, reviews, and articles on the internet.

I was really disturbed recently by some of the posts made. Where B3D was told No review boards becuase your message board is to *negative* towards Nvidia. It is Precicley this type of attitude that makes people negative. Now this.

ChrisK, yes, I was specifically told by NVIDIA that because Kristof works for a competitor, they are hesitant. His words were "Do you know if Kristof and Wavey ICQs each other for two hours everyday? Do you know what they talk about? You don't, I don't as well. They can say Kristof won't influence anything but, really, what assurances do I have? I think Kristof is a stand up guy but, really, are you *really* sure of anything?". IMO, this guy is really good at his job.

Why should this affect anything??? ATi sends Review parts. Beyond3d has a Reputation that is Beyond reproach. It is insulting to me personally that a statement like this is even made. It shows just how manipulative they are. There is NO history in ANY of their product reviews that display anything but integrity for 3D technology, and an Honesty towards all competitors products.

With the Vaste emptyness that make up the majority of Hardware Sites, Reviewers with No grasp of the tech, Posting nothing but 3dmark and Q3 scores.... It is Patently Unthinkable that Nvidia Could protest ANY site. What Assurance do they need??? Does Beyon3D have such influence that one negative review would impact anything if it did go that route? They could easily see issues with the review, make a public rebuttle and never alllow a review board again. However even the *hint* of this kind of impropriety on B3D's part makes my Stomach turn. It just would not happen., and we all know it, as do they. This is about control, and manipulation. What else could it be? Are they afraid of backlash becuase of their Totally unethical and misleading Kyro document?? Does this not burn your blood to boil? That they make common place these kinds of practices yet would insinuate impropriety on B3d's part?? AS if from some kind of High Ground???

Yes, I am just one voice. I know well that many of you consider me a Fan-Atic, Or Just simply Anti nvidia. But NO Hardware vendor is worth this kind of Treatment, This kind of power grab, This kind of Manipulation.. Not ATi, Not PowerVR, not S3 or Matrox, And no.. Not Nvidia either. Let them keep their Hardware. There is plenty of other Companies out there. With very good Tech even Trident and S3 are making a comeback.

That is all.

 

[Evildeus]

Well, i see some reason for nVidia to be afraid. Let say B3D is more a site looking through a hardware for people in the knowledge. Does it has some effects on the public as site as Anand, Tom's or others? Surely not. Does it has more effect on sofware/games developper people? Surely more than other public site.

Now, if we look a bit in B3D regular poster, there're more anti-nVidia than pro (for whatever reason and i putting in this category all people who have some bias against/for nVidia) and knowing that nVidia is the first chip producter. Does it have an impact on B3D articles? I'm not capable of saying so (because i do not have the knowledge) but we can think that if i'm anti-something i'm more eager to point out the cons and to not highlight the pros.

I'm not saying that ANY site is objective, cos it's impossible, i'm not saying that B3D staff is anti-nVidia, i would need some more inquiries in the articles , but i do understand the point and nVidia has the right to send a card to whoever they want (remind me of HOCP and Matrox )

I just hope that B3D will still stay at it's level of knowledge when reviewing an article, and if i don't like what they write, i can discuss it over here or look at another review saying another thing

 

[dksuiko]

Where B3D was told No review boards becuase your message board is to *negative* towards Nvidia. It is Precicley this type of attitude that makes people negative.

Is there really anything wrong for not wanting to send your products for review to a website you feel that will unfairly put you in a negative light? I'm not saying that Beyond3D would do anything like that, in fact, I very much doubt it. But to somebody working for at nVidia, it's a valid concern that the staff of such a site is working for a competitor.

Anyway, haven't we gone over this before - selective reviewing? It wasn't too long ago when HardOCP posted their disappointment with Matrox for not wanting to send them a review board due to not being 'comfortable' with the way they test. And from taking a quick glance back at that thread, many were in support of Matrox for choosing to not send HardOCP a review board.

Why are nVidia's concerns with Beyond3D any different from Matrox's? They're both looking to place their products in the best light possible.

 

[Typedef Enum]

I can say this, because I'm familiar enough with the individual in question. No, I don't know him on a personal level, but I've been around the block long enough to...err, know what I know. Bottom line, I think Kristof is a standup guy, and I don't have any reason to believe that he would undermine the goings-on if a review unit were sent to B3D...

Having said that, is it _not_ understandable that they might have some concerns in that one of the members of the site just-so-happens to work for a competitor?

Image it...IE put yourself in their shoes. You're a staff member @ nVidia, and you come to realize that some guy that contributes to a site works for, say, ATI...and that site would like to acquire a review unit. You don't know these people at all...You wouldn't have some issues/questions? I know I would...

Again, this is going on the assumption that the people @ nVidia don't know the B3D individuals, only that one of the guys works for a competitor.

 

[Reverend]

Hellbinder, you're being "righteous". Get away from 3D gaphics for a while. See if being righteous gets you anywhere you want to be.

This is a business. What you quoted (from my post) is the reality. It may even exist at ATi or Matrox but no one (read : website), probably, has the balls to say things the way I said it (where I specifically mentioned NVIDIA).

At the end of the day, you choose your favourite website. And use your brain. Not take what any one website "reports" without reading properly.

Understand this 3D business. Or any business for the matter.

What is important is what you read at websites. Not what is given to websites by all these IHVs. Your "complaint" is a useless one unless you do not understand what the term "good business" means.

Really... are you honestly saying that the IHV guy's concern is not a valid one? Gimme a break.

It has nothing to do with whether Kristof will have negative influence on non-PowerVR-based products. It has to do with not knowing what really happens. Tell me - know if K and Wavey talks on ICQ everyday? Know what they talk about?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

]With all due respect to everyone at this site. This points out the very reason why I have personal issues with Nvidia.

With all due respect, you LOOK for reasons to have issues with Nvidia.

IMHO.

 

[Kristof]

It has to do with not knowing what really happens. Tell me - know if K and Wavey talks on ICQ everyday? Know what they talk about?

I think its been said before that there should be "nothing" to talk about, when marketing tells something to a website it is always screened and public information. Things are very rarely given out under NDA and when they are released under NDA there is always some Russian or Eastern website or forum leak. Rev, NVIDIA nor any other company is going to tell the press top secret things, they are not going to give away the inner details of the hardware because **anything** said to press will at some point in time become **public** knowledge, and the time delta between NDA and public is as you all know very short these days.

If there is an NDA it is respected... since its legally binding.

 

[Reverend]

Oompa Loompa, you said it.

Most folks specifically target NVIDIA in looking for such reasons. The reasons are obvious.

K, you're straying from the topic . NDAs are given out and if you're one of them, feel priveleged. The key is to know how to ask questions. Example :

"Is there any negative performance penalty in using Cg?"

... as opposed to :

"Is there any effect on performance in using Cg?"

Tell me, who, here in this site and forum, asks the first question and who asks the second?

 

[Kristof]

The key is to know how to ask questions. Example :

"Is there any negative performance penalty in using Cg?"

... as opposed to :

"Is there any effect on performance in using Cg?"

Tell me, who, here in this site and forum, asks the first question and who asks the second?

Well I would ask the first question since the second would give you marketing talk all the way down. The first question "should" get you an answer that "explains" why there should be no negative performance impact, the second will get you nothing but marketing hype that avoids the real issue. Marketing can gain much more from the first question than from the second. The first makes the reader go : "Oooh tricky question but look how they take away all the doubt with the answer", the second makes the reader go : "Ugh, paragraph 10 of the whitepaper...".

Marketing is about twisting and turning everything in your favour, a negative question has much more potential than a positive one that re-iterates the same all over again. Obviously not all marketing teams are aware or technically capable of this.

But I do see your point.

K-

 

[Mephisto]

Rev, as a journalist, it is not your task to ask "friendly" questions so that your interview becomes another marketing PDF. Just have a look how the real journalists do interviews in any prestigious newspaper or print magazine. They're critic, they're offensive, they try to show grievances. There is a discrepance between these "old school" interviews and online interviews in the pc hardware scene. Because every hobby journalist tries to be "friendly" and plays the PR game, the companies have the choice. That makes interviews boring, missleading and sometimes useless.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

"Is there any negative performance penalty in using Cg?"

... as opposed to :

"Is there any effect on performance in using Cg?"

The issue at hand is diplomacy. However, I don't think it's realistic to expect that quality from a broad spectrum of users on a publicly-accessible message base. People are far too accustomed to being able to rant, and troll, and blither with impunity. Such openness can be constructive, at times.

When the interaction is more realistic, personal, and less anonymous, different rules apply. Deprived of group psychology, we're forced to behave.

Only the most socially-retarded individual would publicly confront a valued friend with loud accusations and insults, along the lines of "you deliberately mislead people, blah blah blah, how do you defend yourself?"

...which is why I suspect misae's post (in the NV30 questions thread) was either satirical or the product of correctable inexperience. No one expects someone in your position to pose rude questions.

 

[Hellbinder]

I just haave to disagree with you. I would not have issue with them except for this type of behavior. As i stated, I dont see other IHV's acting this way... Sure Matrox and HardOCP, but they showed CLEAR *issues* before that, and after.

Acting righteous I may be (I call it business ethics), But again.. I only see one IHV acting this way. If its a business thing.. then Why is ATi not acting this way? or other companies?

There is a continual pattern of Nvidia being on the offfensive, predatorial, manipulative.. and everyone not in the Nvidia camp having to constantly defend themselves. Against PDF docs, outright False public statements and manipulative pressure.

I Take issue with these things. Remove these things and I will wave the Nvidia flag with best of the Nvidia fans.

 

[Pete]

It is Patently Unthinkable that Nvidia Could protest ANY site.

I'd understand if nV didn't want to send a review sample to 3dfxgamers.com. Then again, I'd understand why they wouldn't ask for one.

Anyway, I think you're overreacting. So nV doesn't think we should get a review sample, big deal. B3D's readers are smart enough to accept waiting for a later review. They're also smart enough to not limit their info gathering to any one source, so as to get the broadest picture possible.

As for this whole game of life: yes, it's advantageous to be able to extract info in a subtle way. It can also be tiring and annoying in principle. The point is not that you shouldn't ask pointed questions so as not to displease nVidia, but that you shouldn't specifically avoid particular issues simply to please them, to receive your review sample with everyone else so you can post a benchmark-laden review on Announcement Day (usually not even release day). Anyway, this isn't an issue with nVidia in terms of getting cards, as there should be OEM's willing to promote their products by providing a review sample. It may be an issue in terms of discussing (remedies to) shortcomings in their hardware or software, but not in terms of detecting the shortcomings themselves, which is done easily enough by just playing a bunch of games.

Edit: H, you don't seem to realize that the companies at the top of their field don't get there by being nice--just look at all the CEO's and CFO's being arrested nowadays. Better yet, look at the frickin' guy in charge of checking corruption, Pitts, demand a raise in pay and respect before he does the job he so obviously failed to do. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but taunting comments like your sig don't really help anyone. Your sig seems to be wrong, too--"they" were simply Ben, no? And he made an honest mistake, no? That's why you get tagged with the term fanboi. At the very least, you seem to exaggerate things. I dislike some of nV's past marketing tactics, too, but you don't see me being so aggressive about it.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Rev, as a journalist, it is not your task to ask "friendly" questions so that your interview becomes another marketing PDF.

It is entirely possible to ask probing, challenging questions without using the verbal equivalent of a punch in the face. This is the defining property of a skilled interviewer.

And on a more practical, tragically realistic level, consider exactly how much clout on-line sites have. If you're representing VE, you have a certain amount (although you're probably still ignorable, unlike Anand, Tom, and perhaps Kyle). If you're representing Beyond3D... well, you're impotent, by traffic/advertiser/presence metrics.

That's why it is so beneficial for B3D that it's people have forged personal relationships with relevant company personnel. Friendly relations on the basis of informed mutual interest are worth a lot.

 

[Sharkfood]

At the end of the day, I think what it boils down to in reality is- companies dont want unbiased, technical analysis of their products in their early phase of preview.

I've always looked to Beyond3D for the "skinny" on products- the information the fancy graphs and biased ramblings (".. the NV30 [which isnt even taped out yet in anything that could be miscontrued as final silicon] will be faster ...") and ra-ra-ra cheerleading sites leave out.

Unfortunately, the part the other sites leave out is usually the most valuable, important and pertinent pieces to the consumer. I also look to 3DGPU where Matt and the guys have no problems sharing their *gaming* experiences with their cards in real world use. A benchmark graph doesnt tell you that a particular product has flickering lines in Morrowind, or locks up in AO, or is a 10fps stutter fest in Everquest.

Sites that do not prod, question, analyze or investigate (nor have the knowledge or savvy to do so) are all that's left, which brings uneducated, spurious information to the table from which consumers have to make a decision.

So it truly points out that products are desired to be marketed and sold on the basis of truly useless information... where comparisons are made of apples->oranges featuresets (AA and AF and their unique implementations) with only regard of comprehensive analysis towards the "Big 5" websites least favorite IHV being exploited.

 

[Hellbinder]

H, you don't seem to realize that the companies at the top of their field don't get there by being nice--just look at all the CEO's and CFO's being arrested nowadays. Better yet, look at the frickin' guy in charge of checking corruption, Pitts, demand a raise in pay and respect before he does the job he so obviously failed to do. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but taunting comments like your sig don't really help anyone. Your sig seems to be wrong, too--"they" were simply Ben, no? And he made an honest mistake, no? That's why you get tagged with the term fanboi. At the very least, you seem to exaggerate things. I dislike some of nV's past marketing tactics, too, but you don't see me being so aggressive about it.

This is simply not true. Quality industry leading products are all thats required. Ok a competent PR departmen to. However, there is a HUGE difference between emphasizing your streangths, and Attacking everyone else.. OR outright falsifying information.

Does anyone even remember the work Ethics????

 

[Dio]

"Is there any negative performance penalty in using Cg?"

... as opposed to :

"Is there any effect on performance in using Cg?"

Certainly the first question shouldn't be your opening gambit. I've always been a fan of the journalist approach something like:

"Is there any effect on performance of using Cg?"

and if the reply really is a load of marketing twaddle without real information:

"Could you put it some way my readers will find easier to understand?"

and if they still weasel:

"Do you mean it won't have any performance effect?"

and if there's still no clear response:

"Is that yes, or no?"

I imagine that you wouldn't get to the last question unless they are really trying to hide something (you get qualified answers to the second to last like 'In the majority of circumstances there will be no noticeable performance difference' which there isn't much point in going any further on).

Now admittedly, this is the Jeremy Paxman technique, and it does result in him being a very unliked interviewer (by many interviewees) in the UK. However, he does have a reputation with the viewers for getting the answers, and a reputation with the interviewees that he will present things straight and not skew the results - as a result, he isn't as shunned as you might think.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Rev,

You’ve said a number of times that you still care about B3D and what happens to it. Please, act like it.

It has nothing to do with whether Kristof will have negative influence on non-PowerVR-based products. It has to do with not knowing what really happens. Tell me - know if K and Wavey talks on ICQ everyday? Know what they talk about?

Comments such as that can do a lot of damage, regardless of whether this is something from you or something a vendor has mentioned to you. Please, if you really do care about B3D, then think about what you are posting and the damage it can cause before posting it.

This whole NV issue (?) has been blown out of all proportion – as far as I’m concerned we currently don’t have an issue with NV. If NV do have a problem with us then, as the person running this site, I’m the person they will come to and from the discussions I’ve been having I don’t see an issue. The fact of the matter is that you are talking to one person, I am talking to another – if I perceive and issue with the person I’m in contact with then I’ll talk to him about it. As I’ve said, I have once already and they have still been talking to me and passing information under NDA since then.

And, for the record, in reality I hardly ever use any chat programs any more – I don’t have the time. However, what should it matter if I did chat to Kristof? If you want to go down that conspiracy route isn’t it equally as likely that I could also happen to be chatting to other people? I’ve met some very agreeable people at 3Dlabs, I could be talking to the numerous people there! I could be in cahoots with OpenGL guy or numerous other ATi employees constantly asking how to get the best of their hardware. Who knows? This can be said of any website or webmaster and I’m sure that anyone who is interested in a particular field will try to contact people within the industry – should NV or any other vendor doubt every site that isn’t a fan site?

 

[Reverend]

Dave, think what you will of me. In various emails to vendors, I say that I don't wish for severence of existing ties to B3D. Someone just asked me today what it would be like to work for B3D. Ask him what I told him.

As for my comments, that is what someone said to me. I repeat it here. I personally do not think K would say "Please Dave, the GF4 isn't that great in vertex shading. Try not to talk about how relevant its vertex shading is in gaming terms." to you or anyone at B3D (as an example OTOH). I am merely stating a fact that any outsider (i.e. those that don't know B3D staff) would think... and that kind of thinking is valid.

I will forward you an email I sent to VisionTek way back when I left this site, as an example. If I have provided absolutely impossible scenarios (like the example quote), I can live with your opening sentence. It's a big world out there and regardless of how you personally think and want to manage the site, many do not know what you are nor how you think nor how decent a guy K is. I merely provided an example of human nature.

 

[Reverend]

Oh btw, I am sure things may be fine between you and Andrew Humber but when it comes to what really matters, i.e. when you press Andrew about it, will you get an NV30 same time as the other sites? Don't tell me getting a ref NV30 board is unimportant as K makes it out to be. Getting PDFs is one thing, this is an entirely different matter.

Andrew Humber does not determine who gets ref NV30 boards. He will play nice with any site if he thinks it works in NV's favor.

I have left B3D... but I do still try to tell folks (that matter) how much respect B3D garners. I won't go out of my way to encourage them to send you guys hardware (which really is what matters, not PDFs and marketing crapola) but I do try. To echo your own words, Dave, you have no idea what is going on over at my end.