IHV Business strategies and consumer choice

The raster performance of these two AMD cards is good to play rt heavy games. However, because of Nvidias DLSS-advantage AMD cards often need much more performance to reach the same visual output. DLSS performance often looks better than FSR quality which gives the Geforce cards a huge advantage as long as the game provides DLSS. XeSS can also reach a similar image quality like DLSS but I don't know how well it runs on AMD.
Once again, things are generally more nuanced.

Firstly, Upscaling is what the PC Master Race was always hammering console users about, which obviously consisted primarily of nVidia users, but now they're drooling over upscaling techniques. Funny how that works. But in any case...

FSR vs DLSS is pretty much the same at 4K. Additionally, DLSS is not universally better here, sometimes creating ghosting and other issues that FSR does not have.
Generally, DLSS Performance is about like FSR balanced at 1440p, and definitely not better than FSR Quality like you suggest. It's only at 1080p that the difference is hugely significant and things might be like you mention. Aside from that, the majority of the cards that are relevant for RT can do so natively at 1080p anyway, and even with DLSS, I wouldn't use upscaling at 1080p, but that's just me.

Aside from all this, requiring upscaling pretty much confirms that the hardware is not strong enough yet.

Lol, exactly. It’s like a straw man army in here.
Look who's talking. You didn't get a single fact straight and were constantly throwing random nonsense out, which I called out, and you never responded to. And we all know that RT is being made a big deal out of because it's nVidia's. If it was AMD's, you would all be dismissing it, just like you dismissed DX10.1 and DX12 when nVidia didn't have it. Oh yes, I have a long memory when it comes to graphics cards.

So yes, we definitely can play it both ways and say that AMD "fans" are just as toxic to any discussion here as any other "fans".
You'd only like it to be like that so you can excuse your own insufferable behavior.

I'd even say that they are way more toxic because they tend to just dismiss anything which they don't like - RT is a good example of how it's suddenly became unimportant and irrelevant because... reasons.
More than enough viable reasons have been posted, which obviously have been ignored.
 
Look who's talking. You didn't get a single fact straight and were constantly throwing random nonsense out, which I called out, and you never responded to. And we all know that RT is being made a big deal out of because it's nVidia's. If it was AMD's, you would all be dismissing it, just like you dismissed DX10.1 and DX12 when nVidia didn't have it. Oh yes, I have a long memory when it comes to graphics cards.

You certainly don’t post like someone who’s been around a long time. Is this a new account, changed username? You didn’t make any points related to the topic hence there was nothing to respond to.

Raytracing is Nvidia’s? What does that even mean. They didn’t invent it and they don’t own the apis.
 
You'd only like it to be like that so you can excuse your own insufferable behavior.
Says the only person in this thread with insufferable behavior.

More than enough viable reasons have been posted, which obviously have been ignored.
Nothing was ignored, everything was simply debunked as false.
You can use RT right now, it does provide a measurable improvement to IQ (a lot more so than you get from rasterized games with "ultra" settings) and the h/w does help with Lumen as well.
 
You certainly don’t post like someone who’s been around a long time. Is this a new account, changed username?
Doing the same as you, considering that this is "not any point related to the topic, there is nothing to respond to".

You didn’t make any points related to the topic hence there was nothing to respond to.
Pure nonsense.

Raytracing is Nvidia’s? What does that even mean. They didn’t invent it and they don’t own the apis.
You all sure act like it, constantly pretending that AMD can't do it. And you know damn well what I mean. nVidia were the first to advertise it and accelerate it in their graphics cards. And because they're currently better at it, you all propagate it like it's the best thing ever. If it was AMD that had the advantage you would all be swiping it under the rug.

Nothing was ignored, everything was simply debunked as false.
Thanks for unknowingly proving me right and confirming that this is not an honest conversation.
 
Horizon yes but I don't see that much geometry in Ratchet & Clank. Especially when you deviate from the most shown level. Then rather Star Wars Jedi Survivor. That game could be a draw call tech demo because it often reminds of a level of detail only seen in Nanite.
R&C assets look incredibly good. The perceived level of geometry certainly looks noticeably higher than Cyberpunk. There are some inconsistencies level to level which I believe is due to the game starting development targeting PS4. Jedi Survivor is pushing some high levels of geometry as well but suffers similar inconsistencies between levels.
 
You all sure act like it, constantly pretending that AMD can't do it. And you know damn well what I mean. nVidia were the first to advertise it and accelerate it in their graphics cards. And because they're currently better at it, you all propagate it like it's the best thing ever. If it was AMD that had the advantage you would all be swiping it under the rug.

It’s unclear who or what you’re ranting against. Nearly all your responses to me have nothing to do with anything I said. At no point did I say AMD hardware can’t do RT or that you can’t play RT games on a 7900 XT or that RT is important for gameplay. You’re tossing around a ton of straw men so it’s hard to understand what exactly you’re upset about.

I’ll make it easy for you. My main argument is that RT naysayers for the past 5 years have not offered viable alternatives yet still continue to complain about RT like it’s the root of all of our problems. If you don’t like RT for whatever reason then turn it off. If you think RT is inefficient then show evidence of alternative tech that achieves the same result. All the stuff you spewed at me didn’t have anything to do with the above hence I didn’t bother to reply.
 
To add a bit of (completely unscientific) info to the discussion - I have a spreadsheet which I use to collect game benchmarking data from various sources when they appear on the web. This means that only the games which have been benchmarked by someone (not a youtuber, unless it's GN or HUB) are present in the spreadsheet.

I've done a rough estimate on how many games from the previous three years I have in there had h/w RT support and currently the percentages look like this:
  • 2021: 32,8%
  • 2022: 33,3%
  • 2023 (till this day): 32,7%
So the idea that h/w RT support is diminishing don't seem to have a proof here at least.

Edit: Doh, Excel botched up the calculations. Fixed the numbers. As a bonus: it was 16,6% for 2020.
 
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To add a bit of (completely unscientific) info to the discussion - I have a spreadsheet which I use to collect game benchmarking data from various sources when they appear on the web. This means that only the games which have been benchmarked by someone (not a youtuber, unless it's GN or HUB) are present in the spreadsheet.

I've done a rough estimate on how many games from the previous three years I have in there had h/w RT support and currently the percentages look like this:
  • 2021: 32,8%
  • 2022: 33,3%
  • 2023 (till this day): 32,7%
So the idea that h/w RT support is diminishing don't seem to have a proof here at least.

Edit: Doh, Excel botched up the calculations. Fixed the numbers. As a bonus: it was 16,6% for 2020.
So you did a random sampling of games from random reviews and claim them to be somehow accurate numbers? How can you claim that 32.7% of games shipped so far this year have RT? Is that only AAA titles or does that include indies, because there are a whole lot of games that get released that we never even hear of.

I truly question the accuracy of your post and you methodology in coming to you conclusion, I'm not just trying to fight. What point are you trying to make and how does inconclusive data help to prove it?
 
It’s unclear who or what you’re ranting against.
Against the infinite on-going onslaught of nVidia fanboys that constantly infest every single thread about AMD, which was the reason this thread was created in the first place. It's like fighting a zombie armada. And sorry, but if you walk talk and quack like a zombie, you'll get shot with the arguments that all other zombies are using.

Nearly all your responses to me have nothing to do with anything I said.
How so? I've quoted you directly and replied specifically to your statements. For example, I clearly debunked your presumption that DLSS criticism evaporated overnight because FSR came out. It was due to completely different reasons. But you ignored that completely and didn't bother replying. I guess you don't own up to your mistakes and have an avoidance issue when wrong.

And I asked you some things that you ignored too, like:
"I'd love to hear where the lack of RT has consequences. "

*insert rolling ball of hay here*

At no point did I say AMD hardware can’t do RT or that you can’t play RT games on a 7900 XT or that RT is important for gameplay. You’re tossing around a ton of straw men so it’s hard to understand what exactly you’re upset about.
I dislike dishonesty and false narratives. And a lot of those are being propagated that damage the gaming market and ultimately gamers.

I’ll make it easy for you. My main argument is that RT naysayers
Look at that language... "RT naysayers". What is that exactly? Define that for me please. Or are you going to ignore that request too?

My main argument is that RT naysayers for the past 5 years have not offered viable alternatives yet still continue to complain about RT like it’s the root of all of our problems.
RT is not the root of all our problems. But the pushers of RT are.

If you don’t like RT for whatever reason then turn it off. If you think RT is inefficient then show evidence of alternative tech that achieves the same result.
You are conflating things and you argue by trying to bypass premises and have them secretly be assumed by everyone. First thing's first. RT is definitely NOT required to enjoy playing games, any more than 4K is required to enjoy playing games. Considering that the majority of gamers are still on 1600 - 3600 class cards, this naturally means that the majority are enjoying gaming without RT or 4K. So your hidden premise that an alternative tech to RT is required, is false. Therefore, your request that somehow an alternative tech needs to be shown, because otherwise you can force RT on everyone doesn't fly. It doesn't mean we shouldn't push tech forward, but it definitely doesn't mean that we have to push it on people that don't need or want it either.

Secondly... That the cards are not strong enough to run RT, and that nVidia used RT that ultimately helped mess up the gaming market to fill their pockets, and that RT is being overhyped, does not mean that the tech itself is the problem. It's the ones trying to shove it down everyone else's throats when they clearly don't need it, they are the problem.

All the stuff you spewed at me didn’t have anything to do with the above hence I didn’t bother to reply.
Do you know what this thread is about? Because if anything, it's your arguments that have nothing to do with the thread.
 
So you did a random sampling of games from random reviews and claim them to be somehow accurate numbers? How can you claim that 32.7% of games shipped so far this year have RT? Is that only AAA titles or does that include indies, because there are a whole lot of games that get released that we never even hear of.

I truly question the accuracy of your post and you methodology in coming to you conclusion, I'm not just trying to fight. What point are you trying to make and how does inconclusive data help to prove it?
It's not "random", it's just all games which were benchmarked by some outfit which is at least more than some YouTube Joe. It is possible that a bunch of smaller indie pixel art and whatnot games are missing from this because there's no point in benchmarking these. The point is to show that the data on hand doesn't show that h/w RT support is reducing at all. It remains rather steady among releases which people benchmark for the last three years - which is roughly the same period which the new consoles are on the market.
 
Matrox in Parhelia, of course, but before that there were PN triangles in R200 and NURBS in NV20, iirc.
The question itself sounds totally silly and irrelevant. It wasn't a single company that came up with all these ideas or solutions)
Actually...

ATI TruForm was a brand by ATI (now AMD) for a SIP block capable of doing a graphics procedure called tessellation in computer hardware. ATI TruForm was included into Radeon 8500 (available from August 2001 on) and newer products.[1]


That was before Matrox Parhelia. But thanks for trying.
 
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Against the infinite on-going onslaught of nVidia fanboys that constantly infest every single thread about AMD, which was the reason this thread was created in the first place. It's like fighting a zombie armada. And sorry, but if you walk talk and quack like a zombie, you'll get shot with the arguments that all other zombies are using.

Ah, that must make you the name calling, zombie slaying hero of this story.

How so? I've quoted you directly and replied specifically to your statements. For example, I clearly debunked your presumption that DLSS criticism evaporated overnight because FSR came out. It was due to completely different reasons. But you ignored that completely and didn't bother replying. I guess you don't own up to your mistakes and have an avoidance issue when wrong.

Sigh, you haven't debunked a thing. There was significant criticism of DLSS2 on this forum long after it produced good results, in many cases cleaning up artifacts left behind by "native TAA". That criticism has evaporated since FSR landed. Your reference to DLSS 1 isn't relevant.

And I asked you some things that you ignored too, like:
"I'd love to hear where the lack of RT has consequences. "

Yes, sorry about that. I didn't reply because I assumed it wasn't a serious question. Are you actually not aware of the myriad issues with missing or incorrect shadows, reflections and GI with last gen pipelines that are solved by raytracing?

"RT naysayers". What is that exactly? Define that for me please.

People who expend lots of energy telling us how much they don't need or want RT, that it's too early etc etc. Basically people who aren't negatively impacted in any way by the existence of RT in games, claim they don't care about it but somehow still find it necessary to complain to anyone who will listen.

RT is not the root of all our problems. But the pushers of RT are.

Please explain. One example would suffice.

First thing's first. RT is definitely NOT required to enjoy playing games, any more than 4K is required to enjoy playing games.

Again tilting at windmills. Nobody claimed RT is required to enjoy playing games. This is one of your more ridiculous strawmen.

So your hidden premise that an alternative tech to RT is required, is false. Therefore, your request that somehow an alternative tech needs to be shown, because otherwise you can force RT on everyone doesn't fly. It doesn't mean we shouldn't push tech forward, but it definitely doesn't mean that we have to push it on people that don't need or want it either.

Which is it, should we push rendering tech forward or not? If you want to see improvements in rendering tech then how do you propose to do that without RT or an alternative. Can you name a game where RT has been forced on people or are you just making up stuff to be mad about?

Secondly... That the cards are not strong enough to run RT, and that nVidia used RT that ultimately helped mess up the gaming market to fill their pockets, and that RT is being overhyped, does not mean that the tech itself is the problem. It's the ones trying to shove it down everyone else's throats when they clearly don't need it, they are the problem.

There we have it. You're upset because RT is being overhyped and RT is apparently the reason for gaming market being messed up. Why didn't you just say that from the start.
 
Actually...

ATI TruForm was a brand by ATI (now AMD) for a SIP block capable of doing a graphics procedure called tessellation in computer hardware. ATI TruForm was included into Radeon 8500 (available from August 2001 on) and newer products.[1]


That was before Matrox Parhelia. But thanks for trying.
Remind me when did GeForce 3 come out (aka NV20)?

OlegSH is right.
 
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