I don't understand the hype for 1080p/24 output

[Bohdy]

Oh I give up. I agree that the player outputting 24p is "safer", but my point was that a decent TV could provide the same output with standard Pulldown patterns. Seems almost no-one gets this.

 

[Ventresca]

I fail to see why a "movie director" would need to know anything about the mechanics of 3:2 pulldown.

Thats because you are not a movie director

The fact is that as Bohdy stated, no recompression is involved during playback of a DVD.

Well it all depend on what task is going on during the playback...it is like saying upscaling is not involved during dvd playback...if you dont use it is not involved clearly...

The compressed video is decoded and can either be output in the native NTSC or PAL that the DVD specification mandates or the DVD player can use the flags in the MPEG2 stream to extract the original 24 fps progressive source and output that. If it outputs the original then the TV can choose to deinterlace that by trying to detect the cadence but it is always going to be an inferior solution to the DVD player doing it.

I dont think any dvd player can output 24 progressive, if the tv accept a progressive signal, it will be sent to the Tv as 30p or 60p signal.

I did not said anything that go in contraddiction with what you are saying now.

Despite what was stated earlier DVDs can not store 24fps video. They can however store NTSC format 30fps video the is encoded as progressive frames with the flags "repeat_first_field" and "top_field_first". The MPEG2 decode process includes the processing of these flags to generate a 30fps sequence from 24fps input. The sequence frame rate is defined as the rate at the output of the decoder which will be 30fps for a compliant decoder.

If a DVD player knows it is decoding to a progressive display it can choose to skip the final stage of the decode and leave the video at 24fps but this lies outside of the MPEG2 specification.

Mmm...i have my dubd about it myself...but losts of post production offer the 24p dvd encoding so...but i never did that because i work for the most part with pal material so ican really tell....but i guess you can...just doing a quick search on the net...i see :

Delivery Options
After editing video at 24p, it can be turned directly into a 24p DVD which allows you to achieve a higher quality end result as the MPEG2 compression has less frames to compress per second, or you can add 3:2 pulldown back to the video to allow it to be delivered on conventional video tape.

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/24p_in_FCP_nattress.html

I dunno how much players would be able to manage a 24p mpeg2 encoded disk.

 

[Gubbi]

Oh I give up. I agree that the player outputting 24p is "safer", but my point was that a decent TV could provide the same output with standard Pulldown patterns. Seems almost no-one gets this.

Bravias, Panasonic, NEC, Pioneer's flat panels, among others, all have anti 3:2 pulldown features, it's a solved problem.

The only problem is if the movie is filtered (flicker-fixed) on the DVD.

Cheers

 

[Bohdy]

Bravias, Panasonic, NEC, Pioneer's flat panels, among others, all have anti 3:2 pulldown features, it's a solved problem.

The only problem is if the movie is filtered (flicker-fixed) on the DVD.

Cheers

See, that's what I thought. I noticed a guy on avsf mentioned the PureCinema feature of a Pioneer TV, which seems to do exactly what I've described.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069733_290101948,00.html

 

[Ventresca]

Why the big discussion here?

1080p24 is favourable to trying to convert 24fps material (like ALL movies) to 1080p60 signals through 3:2 simply because it's closer to the original framerate and doesn't need to go through pull-down or conversions or whatnot. Every original frame is mapped to a frame (two actually) on your screen, giving no motion issues (except it being low framerate, but at least it's 100% stable).

When TVs or processors try to convert 24fps material to 60Hz, they can be more or less successful, meaning that sometimes you get issues with motion. Sometimes they're fine, but it would just be preferrable to have each frame mapped to a frame on the screen. It's actually two frames, which it's much better than trying to slot one frame in there every so often...

That's that really.

Pretty much like all other things in the digital world: when what you see is closer to the original source, without going through conversions and filtering, it tends to be better.

Yeah, but i think Pioneer have a model of Plasma that can display directly a 24p 1080p signal...without converting it to 60p, having a display capable of doing so give you the best quality you could get from an hd movie...this was the original point of this thread and the wish of the poster on the avs forum.

It should be the model The PDP-427XA/XD if i am not wrong.

 

[London Geezer]

Yeah, but i think Pioneer have a model of Plasma that can display directly a 24p 1080p signal...without converting it to 60p, having a display capable of doing so give you the best quality you could get from an hd movie...this was the original point of this thread and the wish of the poster on the avs forum.

It should be the model The PDP-427XA/XD if i am not wrong.

Oh i know, in 2007 the first sets will come out, which can accept 1080p24.

 

[Bohdy]

More information about the Pioneer set:

Remember too, that according to Pioneer movie-based 1080i sources are processed to extract the original 24fps and once this inverse telecine occurs the image is displayed at 72fps on the Pioneer.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/1106piofhd1/index2.html

I still don't suppose Ventresca will admit that he/she was wrong, though.

Btw, LB: The point you are missing is that there are already sets around that give you identical quality and lack of judder as those that will accept 1080p/24p.

 

[Gubbi]

Yeah, but i think Pioneer have a model of Plasma that can display directly a 24p 1080p signal...without converting it to 60p, having a display capable of doing so give you the best quality you could get from an hd movie...this was the original point of this thread and the wish of the poster on the avs forum.

It should be the model The PDP-427XA/XD if i am not wrong.

I'm fairly certain my 507XA does as well. default drive is 75Hz, which you can set to 100Hz. 100Hz update would reduce judder quite a bit, but not remove it, - and I haven't detected any judder.

Activating PureCinema should update the panel at 24Hz.

Cheers

 

[London Geezer]

Btw, LB: The point you are missing is that there are already sets around that give you identical quality and lack of judder as those that will accept 1080p/24p.

I know, i'm not missing the point. MY point is that some sets (lots actually) are not that good and DO produce judder.

 

[Bohdy]

I know, i'm not missing the point. MY point is that some sets (lots actually) are not that good and DO produce judder.

Ok, fair enough. But then again, do they accept native 24p?

 

[Gubbi]

I know, i'm not missing the point. MY point is that some sets (lots actually) are not that good and DO produce judder.

But what are the odds of these sets accepting 1080p24 over HDMI/RCA ?

Cheers

 

[London Geezer]

Ok, fair enough. But then again, do they accept native 24p?

... obviously not!! They produce judder when trying (unsuccessfully) to do 3:2 pulldown.

Most notably, some of the Sony SXRD sets have problems with this.

 

[London Geezer]

But what are the odds of these sets accepting 1080p24 over HDMI/RCA ?

Cheers

None! 1080p24 sets shouldn't really produce judder, that's the whole point of the format.

 

[Bohdy]

None! 1080p24 sets shouldn't really produce judder, that's the whole point of the format.

It just seems to me that any set which can accept 1080p/24 without judder can do the same with Pulled-down 1080i/60, just like the Pioneer PRO-FHD1 set.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Btw, LB: The point you are missing is that there are already sets around that give you identical quality and lack of judder as those that will accept 1080p/24p.

Okay, this has probably been covered here already, but in SimpleMan's terms for a Laggard, how can a 60 Hz set produce exactly the same results as a 24 Hz set with a 24 FPS source? The timing interval between frames is going to be wrong. The very best solution would be to tween the source data into sub-frames, but I don't think the tech is there (?). Otherwise, you're duplicating frames, which means irregular frame times, no?

As for 1080p24 sets, what sets are coming out that support this and when? Because (dragging this into forum relevance!) it'd be an interesting option to offer cinematic feeling games at 24 fps. With the extra time for processing and loads of moblur, something like SotC 2 could look very cinematic. You couldn't comfortably choopse that option if no-one supports 24fps input.

 

[Gubbi]

Okay, this has probably been covered here already, but in SimpleMan's terms for a Laggard, how can a 60 Hz set produce exactly the same results as a 24 Hz set with a 24 FPS source? The timing interval between frames is going to be wrong. The very best solution would be to tween the source data into sub-frames, but I don't think the tech is there (?). Otherwise, you're duplicating frames, which means irregular frame times, no?

As for 1080p24 sets, what sets are coming out that support this and when?

Buffering:

The panel assembles complete progressive frames from the interlaced fields in the signal. The panel then updates the actual display with these frames @ 24Hz

Cheers

 

[Bohdy]

Gubbi answered it better.

I'll just add that the refresh rate has to be changed from 60hz to avoid the juddering to a multiple of 24hz.

As for 1080p24 sets, what sets are coming out that support this and when? Because (dragging this into forum relevance!) it'd be an interesting option to offer cinematic feeling games at 24 fps. With the extra time for processing and loads of moblur, something like SotC 2 could look very cinematic. You couldn't comfortably choopse that option if no-one supports 24fps input.

According to this, http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/1106piofhd1/index.html , that Pioneer set already does.

 

[London Geezer]

It just seems to me that any set which can accept 1080p/24 without judder can do the same with Pulled-down 1080i/60, just like the Pioneer PRO-FHD1 set.

It's because all sets which accept 1080p24 are new and GOOD sets, that's why.

With 1080p24 they don't get judder cause that's what 1080p24 is for (for movies).

With other material (like 30 or 60fps), they still won't have judder, seen how they accept 1080p60.

So all the 1080p24 sets will not have judder. Or at least they shouldn't.



It's the 1080p60-only sets which can be an issue, reviews on the net will show you. Also PS3 reviews have made this very clear. When the PS3 will be able to output 1080p24, and when u plug it to a 1080p24 set, your movies will be judder free.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Gubbi answered it better.

I'll just add that the refresh rate has to be changed from 60hz to avoid the juddering to a multiple of 24hz.

You mean as shown in this image?...

That's not exactly the same as 24 fps though.

 

[London Geezer]

Okay, this has probably been covered here already, but in SimpleMan's terms for a Laggard, how can a 60 Hz set produce exactly the same results as a 24 Hz set with a 24 FPS source? The timing interval between frames is going to be wrong. The very best solution would be to tween the source data into sub-frames, but I don't think the tech is there (?). Otherwise, you're duplicating frames, which means irregular frame times, no?

That's the issue. Some sets are better than other at "hiding" this.

As for 1080p24 sets, what sets are coming out that support this and when? Because (dragging this into forum relevance!) it'd be an interesting option to offer cinematic feeling games at 24 fps. With the extra time for processing and loads of moblur, something like SotC 2 could look very cinematic. You couldn't comfortably choopse that option if no-one supports 24fps input.

It is expected that most 1080p sets released from next year (well, the ones you don't find in cereal boxes) will support 1080p24.
You'll still need a 1080p24 source. PS3 will support it in a future firmware. I think the current HDDVD and Bluray players are also already capable of it but could be wrong.