HTML5 on consoles

Why abandon the 20-30% of the market where they have an advantage when trying for the larger share.
PS3 is not 20-30% of the combined PC and mobile phone market. If Sony are to become software developers creating Android apps, why invest in the tiddly little hardware platform when those expensive resources could be spent on far larger markets?

"Lossy Hardware" You keep using that term.

You can't be referring to the PS3 Hardware sold at a loss as that has not been true for months. Remember Sony is selling PCs and will be selling multiple other platforms based on Android. The advantage they have is similar to what Apple is trying to provide, an infrastructure of personal products that all share software and media. One connected to your TV, one in your PC and then multiple Handhelds like PSP-Cellphones, Tablets, Cameras and Walkman. I'd double the size of "an Infrastructure of personal products" bold it and color it red if you would allow it.
I won't allow it because I'm not stupid and I am quite capable of understanding a stressed point. The veracity of a point is nor governed by the size nor colour of a font, and just making it bigger and bolder doesn't make it any truer.

My view is looking at the whole console business. PS3 has lost Sony billions because the hardware was lossy - it cost more to make than it sold for. Cost reduction allow this to catch up, but then price drops eat back into profitability, and mostly profit is made from a cloased platform where you control all publishing rights and gain licensing fees for anyone wanting to provide content on your platform. The moment you give up those rights, you lose the whole point to a closed console and are just providing a hardware platform. This changes what you can do. You can no longer sell hardware at an initial loss if you aren't going to be controlling the media side.

Now prior to this gen, Sony and all us armchair analysts spoke of a PlayStation network across multiple devies, mobiles, PS3, PSP and PCs, providing films, games, and music, all of which goes through Sony's portal meaning they get a cut of everything. This is the golden Goose of consumer electronics. This is what MS and Sony wanted. This is why MS approached all the console companies to get their OS on the consoles, and why Sony refused because they didn't want MS getting a cut. This is what Apple pulled off, to become insanely profitable going by their last quarter, but Sony screwed up.

What you're describing now is Sony abandoning that ambition, and instead becoming a hardware provider for someone else's OS and portal. It's like making a PC and letting MS control the OS and the media services. You'll become just another device manufacturer, competing with all the other devices manufacturers. PlayStation as an Android box would compete with Samsung's Android box, and Dell's, and GoogleBox or whatever.

What Sony really wants is their software platform, running on all their systems, tying every owner into the Sony way of life, just as Apple does Apple users. They want users buying content off SonyNet to run on their devices. Otherwise if I can buy a PSP2 or PS4 and run content bought not through Sony channels but off GoogleNet or AmazonNet, they'll be in an even worse financial position than they are now because one of their strongest pillars will be completely gone. Unless it is Sony's intention to dominate Google's OS and become the de facto content provider, it'd be fool-hardy to open the platform up this way. And if they are going to attempt to become the de facto portal for Android devices, getting a slice of all the games and music and movies bought by Android users, how are they going to achieve that?
 
You can no longer sell hardware at an initial loss if you aren't going to be controlling the media side.

Now prior to this gen, Sony and all us armchair analysts spoke of a PlayStation network across multiple devices, mobiles, PS3, PSP and PCs, providing films, games, and music, all of which goes through Sony's portal meaning they get a cut of everything. This is the golden Goose of consumer electronics. This is what MS and Sony wanted. This is why MS approached all the console companies to get their OS on the consoles, and why Sony refused because they didn't want MS getting a cut. This is what Apple pulled off, to become insanely profitable going by their last quarter, but Sony screwed up.

What Sony really wants is their software platform, running on all their systems, tying every owner into the Sony way of life, just as Apple does Apple users. They want users buying content off SonyNet to run on their devices.

I think you've got it <grin>. Sony not being a software company and relying on others to manufacture their hardware was at a disadvantage compared to Apple. For Sony the timing wasn't right as Sony needed the price point of hardware to drop, the evolution of the internet and Web browsers and something like Android and Ultraviolet. That is in place now and we should soon see new Sony platforms and are seeing traditional Sony products communicating with each other through cloud services.

Apple is lowballing the Apple TV hardware. That I think is a mistake. Google TV platforms and the PS3 in particular are much more capable in serving as a Home theater media center family entertainment center-pieces. The infrastructure that adds value to Sony products will be cloud based using the PS3 and Google TV platforms as centerpieces in the Infrastructure. Using Sony provided Cloud services to maintain control.

Cheap Android platforms manufactured in China, India and Korea are coming, that is a business reality. How do you make your Android platform more valuable than one exactly like yours with someone else's name on it?
 
Cheap Android platforms manufactured in China, India and Korea are coming, that is a business reality. How do you make your Android platform more valuable than one exactly like yours with someone else's name on it?
Isn't that exactly the argument for NOT going the Android route?! Instead of providing an Android platform and seeing your potential customers buy cheap rivals using competitors' portals from Amazon and Google and whoever else, create your own all-in-one proprietary solution across your own devices. Just like how Apple did it - you bought an iPod which locked you into iTunes, and then used iTunes on PC locking you into their DRM, and then iPhone apps, and now you have iThis and iThat, you are locked into Apple.

What you've described to me pretty much spells the end of Sony. Failing to secure the media control they wanted, they'll be reduced to a CE company desperately struggling against cheaper alternatives while Samsung and Apple and others displace them increasingly from their once unassailable position of the higher cost, better quality product. Unless there is a means by which all these Android devices are paying Sony, which I haven't had explained to me so I can understand it (lots and lots of buzz-words which are meaningless to me and I don't know where Sony fits in with UV and HTML5 blah-blah), they've plain lost the fight.
 
Just like how Apple did it - you bought an iPod which locked you into iTunes, and then used iTunes on PC locking you into their DRM, and then iPhone apps, and now you have iThis and iThat, you are locked into Apple.

I don't know where Sony fits in with UV and HTML5 blah-blah), they've plain lost the fight.

The Apple iTunes business model is being challenged.

http://stevekrampf.squarespace.com/blog/2010/4/26/apple-is-now-outflanked-on-their-itunes-business-model-for-m.html

Apple's response is the same as Sony's. Who will build the better infrastructure? The PS3 and Google TVs provide a base in the home that Apple and others can not match.

Cloud computing services offered by Sony are the lock and control. Sony still maintains control of the PS3 game OS and only opens the XMB side to self limiting (VM and Engine) third party applications not native language. I don't know how or if they will limit WebGL games.
 
I think you've got it <grin>.
Apple is lowballing the Apple TV hardware. That I think is a mistake. Google TV platforms and the PS3 in particular are much more capable in serving as a Home theater media center family entertainment center-pieces. The infrastructure that adds value to Sony products will be cloud based using the PS3 and Google TV platforms as centerpieces in the Infrastructure. Using Sony provided Cloud services to maintain control.

Heh heh... as much as I *love* the Android platform for my mobile phone, I personally can't see Sony putting android on the PS3.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/22/...ay-from?icid=sphere_blogsmith_inpage_engadget

Part of what makes Android...android is it's linux/unix heritage. This quote is apt:
"If it's running Android it has a root, and if it has a root some modder will find it."

Even my mobile phone, the Tmo-G2/HTC DesireZ, which has a root-kit preventing, at the moment, a permanent root, I'm pretty confident there will be a root that won't require soldering.

You say "Sony products will be cloud based using the PS3 and Google TV platforms as centerpieces in the Infrastructure. Using Sony provided Cloud services to maintain control."

The only way I can see them doing so is to completely change android such that it no longer is android. The brilliance of android is that you can install any app., from any source -- heck some of the developers with the most popular titles release their apps on their own websites or on sites like getjar.com before the Android Marketplace.

http://blog.getjar.com/developer/getjar/angry-birds-angry-users/

I really don't see how Sony can expect to maintain control with this wiley bunch. If they are willing to do so, then I will give them proper kudos for having the sense in finally embracing an open platform. This may forgive all their past mis-steps with DRM rootkits on CDs, proprietary formats, removing OtherOS, etc.
 
How flexible is the Android license ?

http://source.android.com/source/licenses.html

They prefer the Apache S/W License 2.0. with the linux kernel stuff covered under LGPL.

Android is about freedom and choice. The purpose of Android is promote openness in the mobile world, but we don't believe it's possible to predict or dictate all the uses to which people will want to put our software. So, while we encourage everyone to make devices that are open and modifiable, we don't believe it is our place to force them to do so. Using LGPL libraries would often force them to do so.
 
Heh heh... as much as I *love* the Android platform for my mobile phone, I personally can't see Sony putting android on the PS3.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/22/...ay-from?icid=sphere_blogsmith_inpage_engadget

Part of what makes Android...android is it's linux/unix heritage. This quote is apt:
"If it's running Android it has a root, and if it has a root some modder will find it."

Even my mobile phone, the Tmo-G2/HTC DesireZ, which has a root-kit preventing, at the moment, a permanent root, I'm pretty confident there will be a root that won't require soldering.

You say "Sony products will be cloud based using the PS3 and Google TV platforms as centerpieces in the Infrastructure. Using Sony provided Cloud services to maintain control."

The only way I can see them doing so is to completely change android such that it no longer is android. The brilliance of android is that you can install any app., from any source -- heck some of the developers with the most popular titles release their apps on their own websites or on sites like getjar.com before the Android Marketplace.

http://blog.getjar.com/developer/getjar/angry-birds-angry-users/

I really don't see how Sony can expect to maintain control with this wiley bunch. If they are willing to do so, then I will give them proper kudos for having the sense in finally embracing an open platform. This may forgive all their past mis-steps with DRM rootkits on CDs, proprietary formats, removing OtherOS, etc.

When you root Android on the PS3 (if we get it) you can't go any lower than the Virtual machine. I would assume the PS3 will have the same security routines and OS running below the Android VM that it does now.

The purpose of rooting is to allow you to install your own Android apps on a closed machine. Sony can encript javascript and possibly Andorid application files using ultraviolet DRM, unencrypting at runtime when ownership rights to the program are confirmed by the cloud "locker". This protects against piracy but it can't restrict others from selling legal Applications (registered with the cloud locker) encrypted and protected the same way. The PS3 would be an open to third party system but it would require ultraviolet applications. The PS3 natively encrypts files on the Hard Disk in a similar way. Edit: Adobe AIR might be used for the cross platform application.

There is no restriction on Sony that would keep them from using ultraviolet DRM for security and produce a custom application that could not be labeled ultraviolet because it makes use of special features only available on the PS3 and/or makes use of Sony Cloud provided services. Applications of that type may only be available from a PSN store.

So we have Sony having their cake and eating it too, at least for the PS3; other platforms will not be as secure as the PS3.

There are now "fair use" laws that may prevent companies from seeking legal redress from hackers not that they can't continue to use some form of control. Cloud based Ultraviolet puts part of the copyright process out of reach of hackers.

I am speculating based on my reading of the limited information available for Ultraviolet. If there are cross platform applications that have the Ultraviolet label and they are unencrypted and have no piracy protection then there are no barriers to pirating that application across every ultraviolet platform. That to me as a developer would be unacceptable. It follows that a business model for Ultraviolet cross platform applications would use the same scheme used for media to protect IP.

The value added to all Sony products in a "infrastructure" model was recognized by both Apple and Sony more than two years ago. The key for Sony I believe is going to be the PS3 and Google TV platforms. Google TVs are not sold with a Hard disk as I believe cloud services will be used for a large part of custom application commercial features.

The PS3 slims and Google TV platforms support CEC commands but they are not being used to their full advantage. A for sale application/service provided by Sony could be cloud based where a website has a database of hardware/CEC commands and the user can custom program his equipment for turn-on, turn-off, Music, theater and TV modes using the Sony website. An encrypted file would be generated and saved to flash memory on the Google TV or the Hard disk on the PS3. The same can be done for other custom features. Look at the hardware feature list for the Sony Google TV hardware, it's extensive and most is not being used at this time.

Again, my guess on the ultraviolet business model requires parts of a modern webkit and integration with PS3 OS processes. Qurocity will be released this year and I suspect it requires Ultraviolet.

As to allowing Android applications with no form of additional security...that I don't think will be allowed. Some support for a crippled Android (hardware support limitations) may be allowed.
 
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That's what they said about Linux and the Hypervisor.
One buffer overflow or TIFF attack and bam.

Yeah, best laid plans.

I don't want to give the impression my view on Sony marketing and the PS3 is the only possibility. I am only speculating and do not have all the information that Sony has. Ultraviolet, WebGL and the HTML5 API extensions, Adobe Air and Google integrating Flash into Chrome as well as Sony reports to stockholders play a large part in my speculations.

Recent developments for HTML5 & WebGL: http://3DF33D.tv fill in information we did not have, like how 3-D inside a browser was going to be provided by Sony "within a year". At that site you will find 3-D pictures, movie clips, web pages and a live 3-D camera feed that will work now if you have a Firefox browser or soon a Chrome 7 browser and the proper hardware. Multiple formats for display are supported and are generated inside the browser.

Sony has announced 3-D laptops. Sony is providing Chrome browsers with these laptops. Sony sells 3-D movie and still cameras. Sony recently provided a PS3 180 meg application to view 3-D pictures. It appears a Chrome WebGL browser will do the same and much more with only about 50 megs. What does this mean?

I find it interesting that no-one commented on 3-D inside a browser. For the most part the discussion skipped over 3-D inside browsers and on-to Android and Third party applications. 3-D inside a browser and Sony quotes are a much more concrete basis for determining some of the new features coming to the PS3 like a WebGL browser. Third party applications, encryption and how open the PS3 might be are total Sony decisions and may not be "logical" or predictable.

Are there any arguments for or against a WebGL browser coming to the PS3 and parts of it active and in the PS3 NOW.

I'd like to table Ultraviolet for now as there is not enough information to confirm my speculations. When new information is released we can take up what it may mean for the PS3.
 
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Sony recently provided a PS3 180 meg application to view 3-D pictures. It appears a Chrome WebGL browser will do the same and much more with only about 50 megs. What does this mean?

Are there any arguments for or against a WebGL browser coming to the PS3 and parts of it active and in the PS3 NOW.
Why create a 3D photo viewer if you WebGLKit5 stuff and browser in the OS or just around the corner?
 
Why create a 3D photo viewer if you WebGL & HTML5 stuff and browser in the OS is just around the corner?

1) Because the pictures are on the PS3 Hard disk and not on the web
2) The 3-D picture viewing application supports several other modes besides 3-D like Panorama and 2-D with rotation angle viewing.
3) 3-D cameras are selling now and a way to view the results on Sony 3-D TVs was needed.
4) The picture viewing application supports camera generated information and comments.

Possible reason for the large size of the Picture viewing application;
5) all menus are HD graphics (pictures) not Open GL generated graphics.
6) Open GL is not being used at this time and custom routines are used to access the RSX that must be included in applications.

If 5&6 above is true then my belief that the XMB OS is a thread bare application not a modern UI is supported.

We do not know how much of the WebGl browser is finished. I suspect the Javascript engine and some XML, enough to support basic web applications. Google just released WebGL (Chrome 7) to developers 3D turned on by default.

Chrome 7 Oct 1, 2010 http://www.downloadsquad.com/2010/10/01/google-chrome-dev-update-brings-instant-webgl-app-support-twea/

The revision log also lists numerous changes to Chrome's App-related code. While the changes aren't visible, they're a sign that Google is getting App support shined up for its first real test -- the opening of the Chrome Web Store, which should be happening some time in the very near future.

Google's Anthony Laforge also offered a bit of a teaser for users who think Chrome 7 is a bit of a weak upgrade from v6 so far, saying "With our new release cycle and about:labs, I'd suggest you stay tuned, things are going to start moving quite fast."

New HTML5 features planned Oct 28, 2010 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ (editor is a Google Employee)
 
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Microsoft announced HTML5 will be the cross platform solution for everything. This follows E3 (or Gamescon) with ESPN3 shown on an Xbox using HTML5.

http://www.osnews.com/story/23966/Microsoft_Changes_Silverlight_Strategy_Focuses_on_HTML5

Silverlight will continue to be a cross-platform solution, working on a variety of operating system/browser platforms, going forward, he said. "But HTML is the only true cross platform solution for everything, including (Apple's) iOS platform," Muglia said.

Good news for HTML5, I suppose, and for the web as a whole, of course. Silverlight made no sense anyway, since it's pretty much Windows-only; Moonlight barely works, and the Mac version didn't really go down well either.

Adobe shows off Flash to HTML5 conversion tool

http://www.osnews.com/story/23961/Adobe_Shows_Off_Flash-to-HTML5_Conversion_Tool

"Even though its Flash technology is used as a punching bag by Web standards fans, Adobe has been building tools that embrace HTML5. The company recently released its own HTML5 video player, and Adobe Illustrator and Dreamweaver CS5 now contain a number of new HTML5 export tools. Now it seems Flash might be joining the party. At Adobe's MAX conference this week, Adobe engineer Rik Cabanier showed of a demo of tool that converts Flash animations to HTML5 (well, technically it looks like a combination of HTML5, CSS and images)."

My impression is that the entire industry recognizes the future will eventually be HTML5 based. How soon is a chicken and egg argument as Browsers need to be in users hands for web site developers to consider supporting HTML5 & WebGL. The same is true for Google TV web sites.

The PS3 can have the most impact for Google TV acceptance with 40+ million PS3s connected to TVs being able to support Google TV web sites with a firmware update (Chrome webGL version). In addition, what percentage of the HTML5 browser enabled market would that make PS3s, what % of the WebGL market and what % of the market that has the hardware to view 3-D?

There is a reason all Apple and Android platforms support WebGL & HTML5, the PS3 with an OpenGL graphics supported GPU can support HTML5 & WebGL also. Does Google feel it would be in it's interest to support Sony porting a Chrome WebGL browser to the PS3....I'd say yes.
 
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None of that directly points to HTML5 on consoles though. The initial report is saying Silverlight has changed from a Flash rival to an HTML5 development kit. The talk is all about Windows 7 phone and cross-platform development for mobiles and iOS and PC and stuff. Sure, one can fit an interpretation about consoles getting an HTML 5 browser into that, but one has to ask, with all the many, many articles you link to about how HTML 5 is the future, how come Sony and MS never just say, "we've got a full HTML 5 browser/webkit (in the works)", when they quite happily talk about HTML 5 strategies in the big picture? How come this guy mentions Apple devices and Windows Phone, but nothing about Xbox 360?
 
None of that directly points to HTML5 on consoles though. The initial report is saying Silverlight has changed from a Flash rival to an HTML5 development kit. The talk is all about Windows 7 phone and cross-platform development for mobiles and iOS and PC and stuff. Sure, one can fit an interpretation about consoles getting an HTML 5 browser into that, but one has to ask, with all the many, many articles you link to about how HTML 5 is the future, how come Sony and MS never just say, "we've got a full HTML 5 browser/webkit (in the works)", when they quite happily talk about HTML 5 strategies in the big picture? How come this guy mentions Apple devices and Windows Phone, but nothing about Xbox 360?

Good questions. Xbox now has a HTML5 webkit for applications but will not (at least if they follow past policies) have a browser and they have mentioned HTML5 in the Xbox when they showed ESPN3 using the Kinect. Valve's CEO, Newell commented on how closed the Xbox was when he said the next day, as a Sony Keynote speaker, he is porting Portal 2 and Steamworks to the PS3.

Sony is super_secret about the details in plans. This is why we are here speculating.
 
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http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/01/how-to-everything-videos-coming-to-ps3-xmb/


While many of the details are still being ironed out, the how-to videos will appear both on the web and on the XMB. "Primarily, it's going to be content that you find very easily on PlayStation.com, as well as on the console itself," Panico said, though "we haven't decided where it's going to live on the XMB."

How to web videos from the XMB, this begs for HTML5. A VERY small size would confirm HTML5.
 
The PS3 can right now stream high quality video from the store, the web, various movie services, and it has been able to do so for a while.

I think it may be more worthwhile to investigate NUBI when it launches in Europe in two days.
 
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