HTML5 on consoles

2a) A common framework application that interfaces in the same manner as existing systems, but runs on Sony's system by Sony's rules. Would allow any style of interface constructed through Sony's tools for each application. Could perhaps be considered a subset of a standard like HTML5.

You are suggesting that Sony WRITE an application similar to AIR rather than port AIR which would be free. :oops: The BBC and Mubi are going to use an established standard like Flash? All the previous iplayers were flash based.

So does Skinny support Adaptive streaming and DRM?
 
What are the odds of having webGL support?

If Sony has to write it = near 0
If Sony can get it free from someone else (Google) = above average
If the Xbox has it and it's free = 100%
If it includes tools necessary for a business plan (survival) = 100%

I'd be willing to bet that Skinny is not a Sony product (written by Sony).
 
Sounds plausible. In fact, is that not "Skinny"? I already searched this thread, and no one's mentioned the Skinny SDK that I could find.

The BBC iplayer is going to to be a third generation player with features similar to Google TV, Search for programming (TV programs and movies) as well as Social networking. According to the description, this will not be a simple Netflix like UI.

Hulu is planning social networking support and may reduce the price of Hulu plus by half. It also requires a flash player.

Mubi's interface is also, according to the description, going to be very involved.
 
You are suggesting that Sony WRITE an application similar to AIR rather than port AIR which would be free.
Whatever system is used, someone has to write it for Cell. Adobe certainly aren't going to do that, and it's highly improbable that anyone will develop a Cell optimised version of any of these applications without Sony commissioning it, so basically Sony are going to be writing (or comissioning) something. If Sony's needs are to support a minimal set of functions to enable media interfacing, and they can drive the media rendering through their own systems, it'd be less effort for them to develop some cross-AIR/cross-HTML systems within their own XMB (or XMB2) framework, then to develop a full-on AIR runtime or HTML5 browser. Although there are benefits for implementing full systems as you've described, there's also the issue of opening up their platform too much. A proprietary system would cover both bases pretty well, with Sony maintaining control of what gets onto their platform (you'd have to be a registered developer creating an XMB application with their SDK to connect to your content portal) yet the media services having a fairly simple means to get their cross-platform content onto PS3, including Sony services - you could theoretically have Sony services available on all HTML5 platforms, but not all HTML5 services on PS3.

That to me sounds as likely as any other possibility.
 
Ive been working on a few html5 games ATM eg
rettemich.png

graphics/speed is reasonable at the moment (+ its only gonna get better)
but what is really really broken is sound.
Sure you can play a music track but for games you want to play 10s of small samples eg 50msec (some looping)
ATM this is very broken on all browsers
 
Whatever system is used, someone has to write it for Cell. Adobe certainly aren't going to do that, and it's highly improbable that anyone will develop a Cell optimised version of any of these applications without Sony commissioning it, so basically Sony are going to be writing (or comissioning) something.

Agreed and this has been the reason most feel that it's not going to happen.

If Sony's needs are to support a minimal set of functions to enable media interfacing, and they can drive the media rendering through their own systems, it'd be less effort for them to develop some cross-AIR/cross-HTML systems within their own XMB (or XMB2) framework, then to develop a full-on AIR runtime or HTML5 browser.

Unless they have many Flash IPTV applications world wide that with AIR support in the PS3 would eliminate a case by case implementation and more programming time than to just port Air. The list of Flash IPTV sites I listed is a SMALL portion of the total number. Some of the following sites may use advanced features of Flash player. Sony can not just support a "minimal set of functions". Sony does not tell these sites how to make their IPTV player.

ABC iView - flash player
TVNZ Ondemand - flash player
Blinkbox beta - Flash player - working now a few bugs
NOW TV app allready released.
QOOK TV app allready released.
Sky player App - unknown - open release date
Fiveondemand - Flash player likely - open release date - partly working now
4OD - flash player or App - open release date
RTE player beta - flash player - open release date - working now but still beta.
Netflix
Lovefilm
Mubi
Hulu
ITV player
STV
UTV
Channel Television
BBC's iPlayer
Animax
TV3
Yahoo’s PLUS7
YLE
NOS service
Qriocity music
Qriocity movie
MLB
Play TV Channel

There are thousands of IPvideo sites world wide. Most of the custom applications on the PS3 are just a stopgap measure until a browser is developed.

And Air is a superset of Flash 10.1 so if Chrome is coming, modifications to the cell compiler or custom coding would not need to be done twice.

Although there are benefits for implementing full systems as you've described, there's also the issue of opening up their platform too much. A proprietary system would cover both bases pretty well, with Sony maintaining control of what gets onto their platform.

Air applications have to be digitally signed to run, that is the control. Presently the Air application has to be in a PS3 game OS shell. That's double control and not needed.

The Skinny applications model may be what SONY will require. Air applications would have to be sent to Sony for testing and if it passes the application is digitally signed by Sony and released.

The PS3 is sold world wide and there are 42 million of them. The cost to port Chrome WebGL or Air is insignificant and in a cost benefit decision an absolute must.
 
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Since I have the NOS service, I know for a fact that it is simply a youtube/xl view on the videos on the NOS channel in youtube, using the current browser and flash support that is also provided by the current browser in the current XMB. I think all the other national channel services (like BBC iPlayer) work in a similar way, by leveraging the current webbrowser and Flash 9, some of which using custom streaming support for AVC 264 stuff support with SPE libraries that Sony extended the current XMB Browser with one or two years ago.
 
Since I have the NOS service, I know for a fact that it is simply a youtube/xl view on the videos on the NOS channel in youtube, using the current browser and flash support that is also provided by the current browser in the current XMB. I think all the other national channel services (like BBC iPlayer) work in a similar way, by leveraging the current webbrowser and Flash 9, some of which using custom streaming support for AVC 264 stuff support with SPE libraries that Sony extended the current XMB Browser with one or two years ago.

Yes, the old BBC iplayer did use flash 9, the quote in my message #136 in this thread states that but BBC iplayer version 3 as stated in the same message is going to use features not supported in version 9 of Flash like dynamic streaming..

http://www.streamingmedia.com/Articles/Editorial/Featured-Articles/How-to-do-Dynamic-Streaming-with-Flash-Media-Server---66199.aspx

With Adobe's release of Flash Player 10, Flash supports dynamic streaming. Along with the similar technologies known as adaptive streaming, Smooth Streaming, or bitrate switching, dynamic streaming selects the media stream that best suits a user's connection speed. If you're delivering from a streaming server that supports it, such as Adobe Flash Media Server 3.5, the stream will seamlessly switch during playback if network conditions change.

The advantage in Air 2.5 is that it supports limited resource hardware, slower CPUs with less memory. It also requires less work to develop applications.

AIR 2.5 = Flash 10.1 The difference is Air is outside the browser and Flash 10.1 is inside the browser.

If BBC iplayer uses Flashplayer 10.1 calls not in the PS3 browser it won't work properly. The javascript support in the Netfront browser is a major issue. These sites can give special consideration to the PS3 but why should they have to.....
 
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patsu RE: our conversation on the Javascript engine in Chrome

Adobe AIR 2.5 uses SquirrelFish Extreme which is now a standard of webkit. Google Chrome still uses V8, both JIT compile to native language.

Speed comparisons between Chrome's V8 and SquirrelFish Extreme are mixed both have tests they excel at over the other.

Because both JIT compile Javascript code to native language (Cell) and would be in a Chrome port to the PS3, both would need extensive attention when porting, I.E. the hardest code to port.

Unless something is changed in Chrome there will be three javascript engines in the PS3, Chrome's, the Flash 10.1 player and Air. That's a duplication.
 
When doing a Google search for "PS3 Google TV" timeframe 1 week I got "About 2,750,000 results (0.15 seconds)" The number of Hits should show how popular Google TV on the PS3 would be. I read about 100 of these and selected the following:

Yes, gossip and rumors with no facts backing up opinion based on what the writers feel would be good business decisions by Sony. What's new is the rumored timetable for Google TV on the PS3; spring 2011. That's 5 months from now.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/PS3-Google-TV-Hulu-Plus-PlayStation-Plus-Facebook,news-8612.html

Wednesday brought rumors that Google TV was heading to the PlayStation 3. The news arrived shortly after the disc-free version of Netflix became available for the Sony console and prior to Sony's confirmation that Hulu Plus was heading to all Sony devices, including the PlayStation 3.

Last week we reported that the supposed PlayStation Phone would use Google's Android 2.2 (Froyo) and could possibly grant access to the thousands of apps already available on the Android Market. A Sony spokesperson even admitted that the company had a "relationship" with Google without further elaboration. That said, rumors of Google TV heading to Sony devices isn't quite so far-fetched--Sony already offers a Blu-ray player with Google TV installed.

While a specific source wasn't provided, the rumor pins Google TV's launch on the PlayStation 3 for Spring 2011. It's speculated that Google TV will be Sony's retaliation against Microsoft's deal with AT&T to provide U-Verse for the Xbox 360. However a more concrete theory suggests that Google TV would bring apps to the PlayStation 3 in one huge bundle including YouTube, Facebook, Last.fm, Twitter and more.

It also wouldn't be surprising to see Google's Chrome browser replace the clunky, annoying stock version currently residing on the console. Given that the PlayStation 3 supports the use of USB mice and keyboards, the console would provide a more user-friendly, PC-like experience through the use of Google's installed software.

I guess that tables Bravia Internet TV coming to the PS3 as promised for this year by a Sony employee. The "Move" can be considered an Air Mouse and would also work well with Google TV or Chrome. It needs an accessory or settings option to reduce the multiplier so finer selection is possible.

http://www.toptechreviews.net/games/playstation-3/rumors-going-round-about-google-tv-integration-with-ps3/

Though this is a gossip from unverified sources, the much-prospective integration is highly probable as the Japanese Electronics giant Sony has launched its own set top box with Google TV support. Also, Sony is already offering the video streaming service from Netflix; so, from the users’ perspective, they won’t need to pay for another box to enjoy video streams of Google TV and from the maker’s perspective, Sony gets to keep the gamers in its gaming world, extended to Google’s vast internet empire. Also, with its recently confirmed launch of Playstation Phone, it can then offer top rated high volume games in discs while releasing the small games in internet to play directly from the web, if Playstation Phones are equipped with support for PS3 integration.

The aforementioned possibilities with Playstation 3 must be keeping Sony busy, as both of the options are in grab for Microsoft’s Xbox 360 users. Microsoft has recently announced to provide AT&T U-Verse support for online video steaming in Xbox 360. And it already provides option of gaming directly from web by the integration of Windows Phone and Xbox 360.

With Google TV on PS3, Sony might be able to offer a more complete package to enthusiastic gamers, with the opportunity to use huge amount of internet apps and gaining an upper hand in the process. But at the end of the day, everything depends on Sony and Google’s decision makers; we, the enthusiasts, can only speculate more.

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2010/11/02/would-google-tv-ever-come-to-the-ps3/

With the recent launch of their Internet-enabled televisions powered by Google TV, Sony is looking to transform the homespace with two of the most ubiquitous services in the household. But are they forgetting there are 41 million internet-capable Sony devices in homes around the world already?

Sony and Google seem to really be teaming up. While there already is a Google TV-powered Blu-Ray player, there has been no information whatsoever about any new changes of features coming to the PlayStation 3. Why not? The possible PlayStation Phone already seems to be powered by the Android OS, so anything is possible at this moment. Giving the PS3 Google TV would not only increase the functionality of the console, but it would also give the PlayStation a platform to compete with the 3DS’s supposed 3DTV streaming service and the Xbox 360′s inclusion of AT&T U-Verse. It could possibly even lead to the Android platform becoming a PART of the PS3 operating system. Wouldn’t THAT be cool?

Having Google Power on the PlayStation 3 would also give the system some much needed non-gaming functionality: apps. The Xbox 360 already has things like Last.fm, Twitter, Facebook, and ESPN on their platform, but they are all custom built into the 360 architecture. Opening up the PS3 to Google applications would flood the system to an unbelievable wealth of apps to choose from, turning it from a gaming console to a true multimedia station. The tag-line “It Only Does Everything” really WOULD be true now.

While of course none of this has been confirmed by Sony or Google, it really just seems like a good idea. It just makes sense, doesn’t it? With Microsoft teaming up with AT&T and Apple encroaching on the living room as well as the portable space, the partnership between these two electronic giants seems like an unstoppable force. Would that ever happen?

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Why-Google-TV-On-Sony-s-PS3-Console-Really-Makes-Sense-164770.shtml

Would that prove to be more successful and make Google TV more popular?

Well, right now, we're seeing quite a stir-up of rumors on the Internet regarding the possibility of Google TV arriving on Sony's PS3 gaming console, and we believe that, at least from a certain point of view, that would make a whole lot of sense.

I mean, integrating the necessary software platform shouldn't be much of a problem (a firmware update will certainly solve this issue pretty fast), and since Sony's already running the Android OS on its latest smartphones, its relationship with Google is quite a close one.

Plus, since Sony's working on an Android-running PSP phone (this is pretty much a confirmed fact by now), as well as the successor of the current-generation PSP (it remains to be see whether we'll be talking about two different products or a single one), opting for a combo of Android platforms would certainly make sense, since it would enable the fast and easy integration of these apparently separate devices into a single eco-system (that's pretty much what Microsoft is doing right now with the Xbox 360 and Windows Phone 7).

On the downside, should Sony decide to actually give the Google TV on the PS3 a go, it's quite likely that people would rather purchase the games console, instead of the much more expensive TV and/or Blu-ray player.

But that would still turn up profits for the Japanese company, especially since they've always claimed that the PS3 plays a pivotal role in their overall strategy.

Naturally, this is just speculation, at least for the time being, but given the high level of competition in this field, as well as the overall direction the industry's heading towards (seamless integration between various classes on devices that run on platforms that can easily communicate with each other), we'd go as far as saying that this would be a very smart move from Sony, should they decide to make it, at some point).

http://gorumors.com/google-tv-on-sony-ps3-launching-soon/2756451

Let me start with the usual disclaimer that this is a rumor at this stage and so you will need your salt ready. Sony is apparently bringing the Google TV to its gaming console, the PlayStation 3. According to people “close to the project“, this offering could roll out early spring next year.

What this could mean is that Google TV, that Sony already offers over their Blu-ray players could now also be connected with the gaming console to let users stream television content over their PS3. The PlayStation is already compatible with Hulu and Netflix apps and an integration with Google TV could make the PlayStation a full fledged media and entertainment consumption device. Also, since Google TV is integrated with Android apps, an integration would mean PlayStation users can soon begin accessing their favorite apps like Last.Fm, Facebook and Twitter over their PS3 – something that XBox users have been enjoying for a while.

The integration is also seen as a way to counter Microsoft’s recent announcement to bring U-verse streaming to XBox. Anyway, with the partnership between Sony and Google having grown stronger in recent times with the launch of Google TV, this was quite evidently the next step and was always on the cards.

Sony is expected to make an announcement in this regard soon after the holidays in order to keep their sales afloat post the hot shopping season.

http://androidspin.com/2010/11/03/will-the-sony-playstation-3-be-getting-the-google-tv-treatment/

I would like to see the Android platform become a part of the PS3 operating system. Wondering if it’s even possible? Yes, it is very possible! Here is a hint. Remember when Sony removed the ‘Other OS’ feature from the PlayStation 3 which removed support for installing Linux? Google TV is based on Android which is based on Linux – just do the math. Don’t forget that PlayStation 3 Tagline: It Only Does Everything.
 
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Agreed and this has been the reason most feel that it's not going to happen.
Huh? Your saying HTML 5 and AIR aren't coming to PS3 because Sony aren't going to develop them? :???:

Unless they have many Flash IPTV applications world wide that with AIR support in the PS3 would eliminate a case by case implementation and more programming time than to just port Air.
Why do you think developing case-by-case apps is goingto be such a chore? Firstly each title would need to be created by the media company, not Sony. That is, the BBC creating PS3's iPlayer app, ABC creating their iViewer, etc. That's no cost to Sony. Secondly, a well designed system will take the standard media streaming tech unfiform across all these players, and the same interface resources, and just require someone to sit down with an editor for a couple of days to piece it all together. this would all depend on the quality of a Sony middleware solution, but it's certainly feasible and I think you are overblowing the cost issue. Yes, it would be more to the media companies than just using the same browser/AIR app that they've already written, but it'd be a negligable cost.

The PS3 is sold world wide and there are 42 million of them. The cost to port Chrome WebGL or Air is insignificant...
...as insignificant as porting a cross-platform media portal to PS3 through a specially designed easy-conversion process...
and in a cost benefit decision an absolute must.
Again, you're asking Sony to spend money to allow something that doesn't net them money! The cost/return balance is then completely against this. Whatever they can make money from, they can make money from through their own prorietary PS3 player, and the value proposition wouldn't be particularly affected against the competition. The games and media console can be left as a games and media console, with a choice range of Sony approved services like Qriocity which they make money from, and everyone wanting completely open platforms will need to get a net TV or PC or mobile - they aren't direct competition for the games machine.
 
Huh? Your saying HTML 5 and AIR aren't coming to PS3 because Sony aren't going to develop them? :???:

Why do you think developing case-by-case apps is goingto be such a chore? Firstly each title would need to be created by the media company, not Sony. That is, the BBC creating PS3's iPlayer app, ABC creating their iViewer, etc. That's no cost to Sony. Secondly, a well designed system will take the standard media streaming tech unfiform across all these players, and the same interface resources, and just require someone to sit down with an editor for a couple of days to piece it all together. this would all depend on the quality of a Sony middleware solution, but it's certainly feasible and I think you are overblowing the cost issue. Yes, it would be more to the media companies than just using the same browser/AIR app that they've already written, but it'd be a negligable cost.

...as insignificant as porting a cross-platform media portal to PS3 through a specially designed easy-conversion process...Again, you're asking Sony to spend money to allow something that doesn't net them money! The cost/return balance is then completely against this. Whatever they can make money from, they can make money from through their own prorietary PS3 player, and the value proposition wouldn't be particularly affected against the competition. The games and media console can be left as a games and media console, with a choice range of Sony approved services like Qriocity which they make money from, and everyone wanting completely open platforms will need to get a net TV or PC or mobile - they aren't direct competition for the games machine.

OTHER people have a negative opinion of Sony that is clouding their reason. They feel that the recent (early this year) statements of the Sony CEO stating that Sony has learned a lessen and Sony platforms will be more open does not reflect policy. Air on the PS3 would then be contrary to their view of Sony so it's not possible. The same view clouds reason when it comes to Google TV because it opens the PS3 to Android applications.

Air supports advanced features and Sony can not know what features hundreds of IPTV channels might include in their Flash media server 3.5 streams. Unless they want to reinvent the wheel with a full Air 2.5 clone for some reason not apparent to me, it's not worth the effort. Air is provided free and Sony just has to port it.

If Chrome is coming to the PS3, porting Air 2.5 is the same as providing Flash 10.1 It's work they would be doing anyway.

Sony wants the PS3 and the PS4 to come to be an indispensable center piece for home entertainment. One Sony product that provides multiple sources of entertainment connected to the home stereo, TV and Home Network with connections to the Internet to play a part in the Digital ecosystem we have previously discussed. A Chrome browser and Google TV can play a part in this.
 
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OTHER people have a negative opinion of Sony that is clouding their reason.
What do you mean 'clouding'? You asked for alternative explanations! I gave you one. I don't mind you pursuing a line of reason, and you may well be right, but I do wish you'd look for more of an open debate and embrace and examine alternative explanations without dismissing them out of hand because they are different.
 
What do you mean 'clouding'? You asked for alternative explanations! I gave you one. I don't mind you pursuing a line of reason, and you may well be right, but I do wish you'd look for more of an open debate and embrace and examine alternative explanations without dismissing them out of hand because they are different.

I used the term OTHER as in another forum the arguments are mostly emotional. Yours are not. While I feel yours are slightly negative vs mine which are slightly positive you have many good points and arguments.

I throughly examine all arguments and do much reading to insure I am accurate. If you will notice I've been correcting myself as I read and find holes in my arguments. For the most part others are not doing this. Others is not you.

Writing is an art that I have not mastered. I have problems getting across ideas in a manor that hooks the reader. I tend to think that getting the point across requires double size red letters rather than a dialog that clicks in peoples minds.

Patsu: Sony just announced an upgrade to the Home client. It will be interesting to see if any new features that would be made easier by WEBKIT tools are in this upgrade.
 
I used the term OTHER as in another forum the arguments are mostly emotional.
Ah, well, that's the confusion. You shouldn't really bring in discussions from outside that none of us are aware of. A reader assumes responses are in responses to what they have written and are being quoted on, rather than some unknown, unreferenced 3rd party. ;)
 
jeff, at some point, you may want to decide what you hope to achieve in this thread. Coz I can't see the proofs you're citing. And I don't think people here are budging in the slightest sense.

Sorry for sounding like your mother, but if you feel so strongly about WebGL and related technologies, why don't you go out and code it. Debating about these fluffy theories will not (likely) achieve anything. Might as well make the best use of your time.

When in doubt, go watch Steve Job's commencement speech in Stanford 2005. I think you may find more answers there. Your energy and youthful outlook remind me of that speech:
http://onemansblog.com/2010/02/01/steve-jobs-outstanding-stanford-commencement-speech-from-2005/

Truth to be told, I think senior management like Peter Dille should have a look too. Sometimes we forget about things we lost along the way when we grow up (besides making money).



Patsu: Sony just announced an upgrade to the Home client. It will be interesting to see if any new features that would be made easier by WEBKIT tools are in this upgrade.

You know... I am filing this under "Making a Nausicaa: Valley of the Wind video game". I want to see them but I doubt I can/will in my lifetime. :devilish:
 
jeff, at some point, you may want to decide what you hope to achieve in this thread. Coz I can't see the proofs you're citing. And I don't think people here are budging in the slightest sense.

:

Your right of course. I guess it's time to table the discussion, I will be proved right or wrong in a couple of months.
 
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